Direct rail connection between Mansfield and Sheffield

[LowLevel]

I doubt many British town centers would pass the "worthy of existing" test in 2025, given how dead on their feet they seem. But they persevere somehow, and if we're damning one for the state of its High Street then where do you draw the line?

Same I guess with Sheffield not having a station bang in the centre. Clearly it's not, but then neither are Nottingham/ Derby/ Leicester...

There's not a current Supertram from Sheffield Station to Meadowhall but the problem with them was always that a 'fast' service from Manor Top etc direct to Hyde Park comes at the expense of a Manor Top - City Center service AND a City Centre - Meadowhall service, so it was worth the time penalty to divert via the Cathedral. Plus, whilst a less frequent bus service can exist as a fast alternative alongside a regular stopper, the nature of trams mean people expect a simple pattern of operations

The reason I mention this is that the same applies at Worksop. A "fast" Mansfield - Sheffield train comes at the expense of a Nottingham/ Mansfield service AND a Worksop - Sheffield service. I can see the attraction of going direct but I didn't know whether the market was sufficient to sustain enough passengers

Maybe in the first instance we could beg the authorities for a single DMU to prove a bi- hourly extension of the Saturday Nottingham - Mansfield Wodhouse services one via Worksop and fairly fast to Sheffield (it's about half an hour from Mansfield Wodhouse to Worksop, plus about half an hour for the stopping services from Worksop to Sheffield, obviously you'd add on a couple of minutes for reversal but let's pretend for a moment that skipping most stations would claw that back and roughly seven minutes would be enough to recover/ reverse at Sheffield since that appears to be how long these trains get to turn around at Mansfield Wodhouse currently)... then, maybe after a few years of running we'd see whether the increase in Mansfield - Sheffield passengers outstripped the growth in those other markets, in which case we could find a second DMU to extend the remaining Mansfield Wodhouse stoppers to Sheffield but avoiding Worksop to provide a direct service?

Ideally I'd like a lot more investment in this neck of the woods than a single DMU here and there but I'm trying to find some kind of marginal improvement without wasting a whole box of Crayola. Let's see whether the East Midlands and South Yorkshire Mayors want to work together and fund cross border improvements for north Nottinghamshire, rather than the steady cuts we've seen (e.g. Worksop no longer has buses to Meadowhall/ Sheffield/ Crystal Peaks, Mansfield is down to just a bi-hourly daytime bus to Sheffield, the 757 no longer runs from Doncaster to Mansfield etc)

Also, sorry to repeat myself again... But, whilst (state run) Northern have found additional stock for services in Leeds/ Manchester etc, the service through Worksop is still only half the one that Arriva used to provide with no suggestion it'll ever return to what it once was

Similarly, whilst EMR have found additional stock for Lincoln services , the weekday Mansfield service is still only half what it had been for decades

I don't know why north Nottinghamshire fell from favor like this, maybe it needs to tick more boxes somewhere (not seen as 'the North' but too peripheral for Midlands politicians to care much about?)

The problem is dead former mining villages/small towns do not produce much in the way of productive fare paying traffic in the manner of towns like Newark or cities like Lincoln which are busier than ever rail wise.

The likes of Creswell and Newstead are unlikely to ever be on the up again and traffic keeps dropping. Providing them with anything more than the bare minimum in terms of an expensive train service is unlikely to be a priority.

Same with convincing a significant minority of the locals that paying for the train is something they should do proactively to show willing rather than being made to do so grudgingly if asked or refusing to do so at all.

Nottingham, Hucknall, Kirkby in Ashfield, Sutton Parkway and Mansfield are the main traffic sources on the route.

 

[Topological]

The problem is dead former mining villages/small towns do not produce much in the way of productive fare paying traffic in the manner of towns like Newark or cities like Lincoln which are busier than ever rail wise.

The likes of Creswell and Newstead are unlikely to ever be on the up again and traffic keeps dropping. Providing them with anything more than the bare minimum in terms of an expensive train service is unlikely to be a priority.

Same with convincing a significant minority of the locals that paying for the train is something they should do proactively to show willing rather than being made to do so grudgingly if asked or refusing to do so at all.

Nottingham, Hucknall, Kirkby in Ashfield, Sutton Parkway and Mansfield are the main traffic sources on the route.

On the other side of that, it makes them ripe for good news investment stories.

Might it even be an electoral ploy to double the service in 2028? Maybe even including the link to Sheffield?

 

[LowLevel]

On the other side of that, it makes them ripe for good news investment stories.

Might it even be an electoral ploy to double the service in 2028? Maybe even including the link to Sheffield?

I doubt it very much. The Nottingham to Mansfield Woodhouse trains apparently rumours suggest will return in May '26 (unconfirmed rumours).

I think there's more chance of my winning the lottery jackpot (I don't play it) than a link to Sheffield from the Robin Hood Line ever opening. I suspect there's a greater chance of it shutting entirely (though I don't think that is particularly likely either) north of Mansfield Woodhouse.

 

[Killingworth]

Also, sorry to repeat myself again... But, whilst (state run) Northern have found additional stock for services in Leeds/ Manchester etc, the service through Worksop is still only half the one that Arriva used to provide with no suggestion it'll ever return to what it once was

Similarly, whilst EMR have found additional stock for Lincoln services , the weekday Mansfield service is still only half what it had been for decades

I don't know why north Nottinghamshire fell from favor like this, maybe it needs to tick more boxes somewhere (not seen as 'the North' but too peripheral for Midlands politicians to care much about?)

Northern could employ quite a lot of extra units if all calls to deploy such were met - not least the former mining areas of South-East Northumberland (the Ashington line) and Durham coast. Proven ridership on current routes and services helps to strengthen business cases.

 

[Harpers Tate]

I doubt many British town centers would pass the "worthy of existing" test in 2025, given how dead on their feet they seem. But they persevere somehow, and if we're damning one for the state of its High Street then where do you draw the line?........

I'm not "damning" Worksop - just noting that it's likely to be a less desirable destination from (say) Mansfield than Sheffield, including it's connection potential for the West and North. In other words, rather than the RHL relying primarily on folk escaping southwards from Worksop and the villages for the day, it might (also) see people escaping from Mansfield and north towards Sheffield and beyond. But only if that journey is efficient.

The likes of Creswell and Newstead are unlikely to ever be on the up again and traffic keeps dropping. Providing them with anything more than the bare minimum in terms of an expensive train service is unlikely to be a priority.

That might change with a good Sheffield bound provision. Sure - not necessarily by much, but I'd suggest that these places are latent sources of Sheffield traffic.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

As far as services from Nottingham to Sheffield via Mansfield are concerned, to be even vaguely useful timewise I think they'd have to skip nearly all the stops, otherwise you'd be much quicker waiting for the fast EMR service via Chesterfield; I suppose if you had a Northern only ticket it might just make sense though.

If there were direct tram services from Sheffield station to Meadowhall they would take 20 minutes rather than 5 minutes on the train, and I don't think the pressure on the 8tph rail services really matters in practice since I guess no-one minds cramming in and standing for just 5 minutes; however, direct tram services from the station towards Meadowhall would be really useful for all the intermediate stops (such as Carbrook for the retail park). Given that the tram junction is set up to allow it, I'm not sure why there are no regular services on this route, although changing at Fitzalan square isn't a big deal (unless you have limited mobility of course). Historically, have there ever been regular services along this route apart from possibly during disruption or engineering works?

I'd momentarily forgotten that the EMR service exists, so that reduces the utility of this proposed new service for end-to-end journeys. I'd assumed that a via Mansfield service would be EMR rather than Northern so hadn't considered Northern only tickets. How often are late-running Nottingham to Liverpool trains diverted round the Dore south curve?

My mention of the tram wasn't so much a speed consideration, more a "can I physically board?" one. The tram would never compete on time but the trains can get very crowded at times.

 

[35B]

All this discussion about a what-if, but how much does Mansfield actually look towards Sheffield as a centre? The through bus being once every 2 hours suggests that the relationship isn't that strong.

 

[ChrisC]

All this discussion about a what-if, but how much does Mansfield actually look towards Sheffield as a centre? The through bus being once every 2 hours suggests that the relationship isn't that strong.

Mansfield does not look to Sheffield in a big way, and Sheffield would come way behind in second place after Nottingham as cities Mansfield looks to.
The fact that the through bus takes 1hr 35mins and the train, including a 35 minute wait at Worksop takes slightly longer, perhaps is the main reason why very few people choose to travel between Mansfield and Sheffield by public transport. I think probably quite a significant number from the Mansfield area do drive up the M1 to the Sheffield area. The communities from the Derbyshire section of the line from Shirebrook, Langwith, Creswell and Whitwell probably do look more to Sheffield than they do Nottingham.

I was surprised to read that Sheffield is such a popular destination for train travel from Alfreton station with numbers not as far behind Nottingham as I would have expected (Nottingham 46K, Sheffield 38K). Large parts of the Mansfield conurbation including Sutton and Kirkby in Ashfield has easy access by road and bus to Alfreton Station. Some people from Mansfield may travel via Chesterfield to Sheffield. The passenger figures from Alfreton makes me wonder if more people look to Sheffield than I had originally thought.

Moving on from Sheffield and thinking about travel from RHL stations to destinations beyond Sheffield in Yorkshire, the North East, the North West and Scotland, because of the long wait at Worksop, it is often quicker and more convenient to first travel south via Nottingham. Journey planners very often route passengers via Nottingham. A better connection at Worksop, or a through train to Sheffield, would result in journey planners routing passengers travelling to destinations in the north via Worksop which would boost passenger numbers a bit on the RHL north of Mansfield. Now that LNER have changed their timetables the options of travelling to York, Newcastle and Edinburgh via Worksop and Retford will have disappeared from the journey planners.

Another issue is high fares from RHL stations south of Shirebrook to destinations in the north beyond Sheffield. There is a cheaper via Worksop fare to Sheffield but not to stations beyond. Fares from Mansfield, Sutton Parkway, Kirkby in Ashfield and Hucknall are often even more expensive than from Nottingham unless you travel via Worksop and split tickets. These stations should have a via Worksop fare to all destinations set at a similar level to those from Alfreton, which are significantly less than from Nottingham.

I agree with others that a through train to Sheffield from Mansfield is not going to happen. But greatly improved connections at Worksop and more realistic fares via Worksop could generate a few more passengers to travel north from RHL stations and give the hourly service on the Mansfield to Worksop a section a more secure future.

 

[35B]

Mansfield does not look to Sheffield in a big way, and Sheffield would come way behind in second place after Nottingham as cities Mansfield looks to.
The fact that the through bus takes 1hr 35mins and the train, including a 35 minute wait at Worksop takes slightly longer, perhaps is the main reason why very few people choose to travel between Mansfield and Sheffield by public transport. I think probably quite a significant number from the Mansfield area do drive up the M1 to the Sheffield area. The communities from the Derbyshire section of the line from Shirebrook, Langwith, Creswell and Whitwell probably do look more to Sheffield than they do Nottingham.

I was surprised to read that Sheffield is such a popular destination for train travel from Alfreton station with numbers not as far behind Nottingham as I would have expected (Nottingham 46K, Sheffield 38K). Large parts of the Mansfield conurbation including Sutton and Kirkby in Ashfield has easy access by road and bus to Alfreton Station. Some people from Mansfield may travel via Chesterfield to Sheffield. The passenger figures from Alfreton makes me wonder if more people look to Sheffield than I had originally thought.

It’s an interesting thought, and would be interesting to see some proper research done.

But it does tend to make me think that low demand for travel between Mansfield and Sheffield is what is behind the current service pattern, rather than the current service pattern limiting demand.

 

[NCT]

It's quite depressing the pervasive mindset in this thread is one that's hand-to-mouth. What the franchising (or concession) model enabled was a mindset of project-based thinking. Every 7 years or so you have a systematic view of network changes, and you specify/buy a package of revenue and cost forecasts, timetable changes and rolling stock procurement as a project. The mindset wasn't about short-term unit availability.

With a medium-term view, the first logical step seems to be to be to restore the pre-Covid 2tph service levels for Nottingham - Mansfield and Worksop Sheffield. If economics allow extend the Nottingham - Mansfield Woodhouse to Worksop, then you have a 2tph meeting 2tph, and 'swissifying' the network at Worksop ought not be impossible. That would be more economical and more deliverable than trying to run a new service that doesn't fit the pattern.

 

[daodao]

With a medium-term view, the first logical step seems to be to be to restore the pre-Covid 2tph service levels for Nottingham - Mansfield and Worksop Sheffield. If economics allow extend the Nottingham - Mansfield Woodhouse to Worksop, then you have a 2tph meeting 2tph, and 'swissifying' the network at Worksop ought not be impossible. That would be more economical and more deliverable than trying to run a new service that doesn't fit the pattern.

I agree with restoring 2 tph between Nottingham and Mansfield, and between Worksop and Sheffield, to provide reasonable frequencies on what are effectively suburban routes into these 2 major cities.

However, it is unlikely that a 2 tph service is warranted between Mansfield and Worksop, but the Nottingham to Worksop and Worksop to Sheffield trains could be linked to provide a through 1 tph service.

It would be easier and simpler if these services, and the 1 tph Lincoln to Sheffield service, were all run by the same TOC, preferably EMR.

 

[Llandudno]

On the other side of that, it makes them ripe for good news investment stories.

Might it even be an electoral ploy to double the service in 2028? Maybe even including the link to Sheffield?

Or the Govt tell everyone that the service will double in 2028 and then after the next election ‘pause’ the project for another decade….

 

[Topological]

Or the Govt tell everyone that the service will double in 2028 and then after the next election ‘pause’ the project for another decade….

In normal circumstances, the cynic in me would agree.

However, I do believe Labour will be looking for some low cost "wins" that can give demonstrable action in areas Reform might threaten. The constituencies on this line are ripe for such action and hence I think we might actually see a Sheffield train.

It will be cascaded units from Northern's current tender though, maybe even some 150s seeing out their final days. As it is all GBR, it becomes easier to do things like that.

 

[2001olib]

Has anyone considered bolting a bus to a freight wagon chassis to provide a rail option with lower running costs??

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Despite the reopening of the Robin Hood Line through central Mansfield, many in the wider Mansfield conurbation (Sutton-in-Ashfield, Skegby etc.) still view Alfreton station as "Alfreton & Mansfield Parkway" due to the far better journey options available. It's a good few years (and a pandemic) ago now, but the Trent-Barton 9.3 bus from Sutton used to always be fairly busy as far as Alfreton station where it would pretty much empty out. By comparison the RHL is very much viewed as "a local line for local people".

 

[Charlie978]

How often are late-running Nottingham to Liverpool trains diverted round the Dore south curve?

In my experience once they’re about 25 minutes late they seem to be diverted that way in both directions.

The communities from the Derbyshire section of the line from Shirebrook, Langwith, Creswell and Whitwell probably do look more to Sheffield than they do Nottingham.

In general NE Derbyshire (and Chesterfield too) look towards Sheffield first before looking south to either Nottingham or Derby. In part it is down to proximity, but I feel that area of Derbyshire has a disconnect from Derby and feels more culturally attached to Sheffield.

 

[woodend01]

In my experience once they’re about 25 minutes late they seem to be diverted that way in both directions.

In general NE Derbyshire (and Chesterfield too) look towards Sheffield first before looking south to either Nottingham or Derby. In part it is down to proximity, but I feel that area of Derbyshire has a disconnect from Derby and feels more culturally attached to Sheffield.

Yep you’re completely correct. I grew up in this area (near whitwell) and everyone looks toward Sheffield instead of Nottingham or Derby.

I can personally see a direct Sheffield service being useful if well advertised. I don’t know many people who even consider using the RHL in its current form apart from perhaps an occasional trip to Nottingham.

I even know of people who railhead to chesterfield from the clowne/whitwell area if going to Nottingham, despite creswell having a direct service!

 

[Pigeon]

If you were to take that line you could suggest that basically the entire line north of Mansfield or at a push Shirebrook (though that has had footfall drop significantly with huge numbers travelling for Sports Direct apparently a thing of the past) isn't worthy of existing. It's dead on it's feet except for Saturdays and I'm not sure going to Sheffield rather than Worksop would do much to rehabilitate it.

Surely much of the reason for this is that it terminates in a cruddy hole in the middle of nowhere, instead of going through to somewhere useful. A line should connect two places that people want to go to, via places that people want to go from; if it only does half of that it's inevitable that the distal end of it is going to have poor circulation.

To properly fix this, through trains are what is required; merely replacing randomly-timed (non)connections with predictable and short ones and saying "that's as good as a through service" doesn't cut it, because it isn't.

Much of the rest of the reason is probably that only one train an hour is infrequent enough to be a pain more often than not. Give it at least one every half hour, or not much more than that.

In the longer term, combine it with Sheffield-Stocksbridge (and reopen that through to Penistone)...

 

[Topological]

Surely much of the reason for this is that it terminates in a cruddy hole in the middle of nowhere, instead of going through to somewhere useful. A line should connect two places that people want to go to, via places that people want to go from; if it only does half of that it's inevitable that the distal end of it is going to have poor circulation.

To properly fix this, through trains are what is required; merely replacing randomly-timed (non)connections with predictable and short ones and saying "that's as good as a through service" doesn't cut it, because it isn't.

Much of the rest of the reason is probably that only one train an hour is infrequent enough to be a pain more often than not. Give it at least one every half hour, or not much more than that.

In the longer term, combine it with Sheffield-Stocksbridge (and reopen that through to Penistone)...

Was very logical until the last line.

Wouldn't terminating at Penistone mean a "cruddy hole in the middle of nowhere"?

Nottingham - Sheffield with a reversal at Worksop is the logical conclusion. No more and no less.

 

[LowLevel]

Was very logical until the last line.

Wouldn't terminating at Penistone mean a "cruddy hole in the middle of nowhere"?

Nottingham - Sheffield with a reversal at Worksop is the logical conclusion. No more and no less.

I wouldn't say any of it was logical

In terms of problems looking for an answer, sure, but there are very many other better ways to use railway resources before you bother linking Mansfield, Shirebrook and Sheffield plus some other irrelevant halts before you bother trying to get funding for the huge subsidy required from the many different local authorities. It's bad enough with the line looping in and out of Notts and Derbyshire before you bring Yorkshire into it.

If we were being radical I'd close it north of Mansfield Woodhouse or Shirebrook, retain access to W H Davis and the Ollerton test track, electrify either to 25 kv or the tram and run it as an electric service or tram train with better frequencies to encourage more metro use.

 

[NCT]

To properly fix this, through trains are what is required; merely replacing randomly-timed (non)connections with predictable and short ones and saying "that's as good as a through service" doesn't cut it, because it isn't.

The Swiss would beg to differ.

 

[35B]

The Swiss would beg to differ.

The Swiss operate on the basis that connections are reliable and to be trusted.

 

[NCT]

The Swiss operate on the basis that connections are reliable and to be trusted.

Whatever combinatorics you play with low-frequency direct trains everywhere you'll only ever serve a small number of origin-destination pairs with direct trains. Making connections work then virtually every two points on the railway network become viable railway journeys. There's a step difference in the obtainable rail market between the two approaches.

Our approach of trying to run direct trains everywhere is incredibly inefficient and makes the network ever more prone to delays. It's a much more expensive approach than getting connections to work. We are paying more for less.

 

[Manutd1999]

How about operating a triangle-type pattern:
1ph Notts-Mansfield-Worksop
1ph Notts-Mansfield-Sheffield
1ph Sheffield-Worksop

All operated by EMR to allow inter-working, easing the increased reversals at Worksop.

The Northern service could then run semi-fast to Lincoln on top.

 

[35B]

Whatever combinatorics you play with low-frequency direct trains everywhere you'll only ever serve a small number of origin-destination pairs with direct trains. Making connections work then virtually every two points on the railway network become viable railway journeys. There's a step difference in the obtainable rail market between the two approaches.

Our approach of trying to run direct trains everywhere is incredibly inefficient and makes the network ever more prone to delays. It's a much more expensive approach than getting connections to work. We are paying more for less.

We agree. The issue is that, in the absence of the wider behaviour of Swiss railways, any sensible user will be suspicious of a planned connection, especially on a low frequency service.

That means, in the case of extending RHL services to connect with Sheffield, that the direct option is the only one likely to be desirable with Britain’s railways as they are.

Ignoring the additional complications caused by different TOCs, I then come back to the question of demand, and whether there is sufficient demand to justify and sustain a Sheffield bound service from the RHL. Reading the discussion here, I’m not convinced.

 

[NCT]

We agree. The issue is that, in the absence of the wider behaviour of Swiss railways, any sensible user will be suspicious of a planned connection, especially on a low frequency service.

That means, in the case of extending RHL services to connect with Sheffield, that the direct option is the only one likely to be desirable with Britain’s railways as they are.

Ignoring the additional complications caused by different TOCs, I then come back to the question of demand, and whether there is sufficient demand to justify and sustain a Sheffield bound service from the RHL. Reading the discussion here, I’m not convinced.

I too think additional vehicle mileages would just have 'subsidy' written all over them. The thing with improving connection is that, if done properly it could be with zero cost (you are just retiming the existing vehicle mileages), then even if you attract one passenger on half fare that half fare is pure income.

 

[D365]

How about operating a triangle-type pattern:
1ph Notts-Mansfield-Worksop
1ph Notts-Mansfield-Sheffield
1ph Sheffield-Worksop

All operated by EMR to allow inter-working, easing the increased reversals at Worksop.

The Northern service could then run semi-fast to Lincoln on top.

Is there realistically any capacity for additional Worksop services into Sheffield Midland?

 

[The Mercian]

Also if you’re going to run a metro service surely you’d go to Retford from Sheffield which links both ends to a mainline railway?

 

[Manutd1999]

Also if you’re going to run a metro service surely you’d go to Retford from Sheffield which links both ends to a mainline railway?

It could run to Retford if there's space - wherever the reversal is easiest really.

Is there realistically any capacity for additional Worksop services into Sheffield Midland?

Platform capacity at Sheffield is perhaps a bigger constraint? It would be a squeeze...

 

[Nottingham59]

Platform capacity at Sheffield is perhaps a bigger constraint? It would be a squeeze...

It's the constraint for everything. The sooner Sheffield gets three or better four through tracks from Dore to Nunnery Junction the better.