Direct rail connection between Mansfield and Sheffield

[dalecn]

With Mansfield a town with over a population over 110k only receiving 1tph each way and only being connected to one major metropolitain area. Wouldnt it make sense to improve connections by adding a Nottingham to Sheffield via Mansfield service from my understanding even with all of Sheffields massive capacity contraints there should be capacity for this service and before covid Mansfield had 2tph surley a service like this would make perfect sense.

 

[Llandudno]

With Mansfield a town with over a population over 110k only receiving 1tph each way and only being connected to one major metropolitain area. Wouldnt it make sense to improve connections by adding a Nottingham to Sheffield via Mansfield service from my understanding even with all of Sheffields massive capacity contraints there should be capacity for this service and before covid Mansfield had 2tph surley a service like this would make perfect sense.

There is a bus from Mansfield to Sheffield route 53 running every 2 hours!

Probably quicker to hop on the Pronto bus to Chesterfield and train or X17 bus to Sheffield.

 

[daodao]

With Mansfield a town with over a population over 110k only receiving 1tph each way and only being connected to one major metropolitain area. Wouldnt it make sense to improve connections by adding a Nottingham to Sheffield via Mansfield service from my understanding even with all of Sheffields massive capacity contraints there should be capacity for this service and before covid Mansfield had 2tph surley a service like this would make perfect sense.

One option would be to extend the hourly Nottingham to Worksop service to Sheffield via Kiveton, thus increasing the overall Worksop to Sheffield service to half-hourly. The Nottingham to Mansfield service should ideally be restored to half-hourly too.

 

[JonathanH]

One option would be to extend the hourly Nottingham to Worksop service to Sheffield via Kiveton, thus increasing the overall Worksop to Sheffield service to half-hourly. The Nottingham to Mansfield service should ideally be restored to half-hourly too.

That comes with a time delay for reversal though. Looks like around four minutes of running time from the junction in each direction and maybe five minutes for the reversal.

 

[ChrisC]

One option would be to extend the hourly Nottingham to Worksop service to Sheffield via Kiveton, thus increasing the overall Worksop to Sheffield service to half-hourly. The Nottingham to Mansfield service should ideally be restored to half-hourly too.

The best Mansfield had was when Northern introduced the hourly Sheffield to Gainsborough Central train in May 2019. Unfortunately this never had the chance to build up passenger numbers before it was suspended after less than a year during the covid lockdown. It has never returned. Mansfield and the RHL then had good connections at Worksop and journey times to Sheffield were cut by around 30 minutes.

For just those few months journey planners for journeys from Mansfield to many destinations in the North came up with journeys via Worksop, instead of sending people south via Nottingham. Now it’s even worse because the new ECML timetable has removed the reasonable connection into the LNER Kings Cross - York train at Retford. The Northern Sheffield to Gainsborough Train was never given a chance to succeed and even for the short period it did run there was no advertising in the Mansfield area of better connections at Worksop.

I agree that a town the size of Mansfield does need more than 1tph to Nottingham and better journey times to Sheffield and the North.

 

[LowLevel]

Don't get your hopes up too much but rumours suggest the full Nottingham - Mansfield Woodhouse service may be making a return in May 2026.

No chance of anything to Sheffield I'd have thought though.

 

[Harpers Tate]

This is (I suspect) one of those plentiful dumb situations that arose from politics being more important than practicality. I'd have to believe that, had one analysed latent demand and used that as the primary basis at the time the RHL was reopened, trains north of Mansfield would indeed have been going to Sheffield rather than Worksop - and been better used if so. But the RHL was promoted and partly funded (I think) by Nottinghamshire - and Worksop is in Notts, whereas Sheffield is not. Hence the Worksop terminus.

 

[daodao]

This is (I suspect) one of those plentiful dumb situations that arose from politics being more important than practicality. I'd have to believe that, had one analysed latent demand and used that as the primary basis at the time the RHL was reopened, trains north of Mansfield would indeed have been going to Sheffield rather than Worksop - and been better used if so. But the RHL was promoted and partly funded (I think) by Nottinghamshire - and Worksop is in Notts, whereas Sheffield is not. Hence the Worksop terminus.

The other issue might be that the Lincoln to Sheffield service is run by Northern rather than by EMR. IMHO, it would be better and operationally simpler, if this service (and also all passenger train services to/from Grimsby/Cleethorpes) were operated by EMR.

 

[Topological]

Would Worksop reversal beat the bus?

Yes it is not great adding 15 minutes to the journey, but on the surface it feels like restoring half-hourly between Worksop and Nottingham/Sheffield has benefits too?

 

[ChrisC]

Don't get your hopes up too much but rumours suggest the full Nottingham - Mansfield Woodhouse service may be making a return in May 2026.

I won’t get my hopes up too much, but even a rumour is better than nothing. I used to use the RHL regularly but have used it very little over the last 5 years. 1tph is so inconvenient if you just miss a connection. The regular bus services into Nottingham from Mansfield, Sutton and Kirkby plus the buses and trams from Hucknall leaves the 1tph a poor alternative.

Just a thought. If the Nottingham to Mansfield Woodhouse trains were restored would 2 carriage trains be sufficient on RHL service to release the 3 carriage trains for routes where they are perhaps more needed.

 

[Tester]

Just a thought. If the Nottingham to Mansfield Woodhouse trains were restored would 2 carriage trains be sufficient on RHL service to release the 3 carriage trains for routes where they are perhaps more needed.

Highly unlikely.

The mere provision of a more frequent service is highly likely to increase passenger loads, for the very reasons you have identified.

See Operation Princess.

 

[tram21]

Just a thought. If the Nottingham to Mansfield Woodhouse trains were restored would 2 carriage trains be sufficient on RHL service to release the 3 carriage trains for routes where they are perhaps more needed.

I would hope that they would use 2 coaches on all services as they are definitely needed more elsewhere!! 2tph of 2 coaches is better than 1tph of 3 coaches in any case.

 

[ChrisC]

I would hope that they would use 2 coaches on all services as they are definitely needed more elsewhere!! 2tph of 2 coaches is better than 1tph of 3 coaches in any case.

That’s exactly what I was thinking.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That comes with a time delay for reversal though. Looks like around four minutes of running time from the junction in each direction and maybe five minutes for the reversal.

If there's a case for a service (possibly a big "if") then the need for a reversal shouldn't be and isn't a show-stopper. If the track layout and signalling permits a reversal in the platform then it should be do-able in way less than five minutes with a 2/3-car unit, just as long as the paths line up.

Of course if the reversal can't be done in combination with the station call (I'm not familiar with the track layout at Worksop), that does present a bigger obstacle.

 

[duffield]

If there's a case for a service (possibly a big "if") then the need for a reversal shouldn't be and isn't a show-stopper. If the track layout and signalling permits a reversal in the platform then it should be do-able in way less than five minutes with a 2/3-car unit, just as long as the paths line up.

Of course if the reversal can't be done in combination with the station call (I'm not familiar with the track layout at Worksop), that does present a bigger obstacle.

The current services already reverse in P2 when they turn around at the end of the journey, and use the crossover to get back to the Mansfield line, so heading for Sheffield instead shouldn't be a problem at all.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Looking at RTT, it appears:
1) it takes a passenger train arriving into Worksop from Whitwell 1.5 minutes to travel from Woodend Jn to Shireoaks E Jn.
2) for the sake of this, let's suppose that a train going directly from Woodend to Shireoaks W would also take 1.5 minutes.
3) it takes a passenger train 5 minutes in total to travel from Woodend Jn to Worksop
4) Let's allow 5 minutes for a reversal at Worksop
5) it takes a passenger train 3.5 minutes to travel from Worksop to Shireoaks W Jn.
6) (calculation) it would take a hypothetical service from the Robin Hood line 5 + 5 + 3.5 minutes between Woodend and Shireoaks W = 13.5 minutes.

Compare (2) to (6) and the serving of Worksop as part of a RHL > Sheffield route adds something like 12 minutes onto the journey time. I'd contend that Worksop isn't worth such a "delay" and that any service intending to carry passengers between the RHL and Sheffield should skip Worksop and go direct from Woodend to Shireoaks W.

 

[yorksrob]

That comes with a time delay for reversal though. Looks like around four minutes of running time from the junction in each direction and maybe five minutes for the reversal.

Neither here nor there in the scheme of things. The delay for reversal at places such as Castleford and Eastbourne is much greater, yet passengers don't seem to be put off.

 

[ChrisC]

Looking at RTT, it appears:
1) it takes a passenger train arriving into Worksop from Whitwell 1.5 minutes to travel from Woodend Jn to Shireoaks E Jn.
2) for the sake of this, let's suppose that a train going directly from Woodend to Shireoaks W would also take 1.5 minutes.
3) it takes a passenger train 5 minutes in total to travel from Woodend Jn to Worksop
4) Let's allow 5 minutes for a reversal at Worksop
5) it takes a passenger train 3.5 minutes to travel from Worksop to Shireoaks W Jn.
6) (calculation) it would take a hypothetical service from the Robin Hood line 5 + 5 + 3.5 minutes between Woodend and Shireoaks W = 13.5 minutes.

Compare (2) to (6) and the serving of Worksop as part of a RHL > Sheffield route adds something like 12 minutes onto the journey time. I'd contend that Worksop isn't worth such a "delay" and that any service intending to carry passengers between the RHL and Sheffield should skip Worksop and go direct from Woodend to Shireoaks W.

Worksop will still need trains from Nottingham, Mansfield and other stations on the RHL so couldn’t be missed out. Passenger numbers on the RHL north of Mansfield are not very high and at times hardly justify the current 1tph. I absolutely agree that Mansfield needs a better train service to Sheffield and the north but missing out Worksop would not work. All that’s needed is a good connection at Worksop for both Sheffield and Retford. Bring back the Northern Sheffield to Gainsborough Central train and the problem is solved. The new timetable on the ECML has removed any useable connections at Retford into LNER services so the return of the Sheffield to Gainsborough train would solve the Retford connections problem too and allow the Lincoln service to run fast between Sheffield and Worksop again.

 

[duffield]

Looking at RTT, it appears:
1) it takes a passenger train arriving into Worksop from Whitwell 1.5 minutes to travel from Woodend Jn to Shireoaks E Jn.
2) for the sake of this, let's suppose that a train going directly from Woodend to Shireoaks W would also take 1.5 minutes.
3) it takes a passenger train 5 minutes in total to travel from Woodend Jn to Worksop
4) Let's allow 5 minutes for a reversal at Worksop
5) it takes a passenger train 3.5 minutes to travel from Worksop to Shireoaks W Jn.
6) (calculation) it would take a hypothetical service from the Robin Hood line 5 + 5 + 3.5 minutes between Woodend and Shireoaks W = 13.5 minutes.

Compare (2) to (6) and the serving of Worksop as part of a RHL > Sheffield route adds something like 12 minutes onto the journey time. I'd contend that Worksop isn't worth such a "delay" and that any service intending to carry passengers between the RHL and Sheffield should skip Worksop and go direct from Woodend to Shireoaks W.

3) That includes a minute's "engineering allowance", so maybe you could knock a minute off
4) Some reversals at Derby are 4 minutes in WTT; in practice, 3 minutes seems easily achieved with a short DMU
6) So this calculation could end up more like 4+3.5+3.5=11 minutes bringing the "penalty" for a Worksop call to just below 10 minutes.

But anyhow, I agree with the other posts to the effect that Worksop is an essential stop regardless of the time penalty.

 

[Harpers Tate]

I maintain that Worksop isn't worthy of adding ~12 minutes to a trip from elsewhere on the RHL to Sheffield. It's a scruffy hole with a centre that's all but dead. It may be useful as a connection, in which case, actually, all that's needed is good connections to/from the East at Shireoaks.

Put it this way - if there were (hypothetically) 2x trains/hour north of Mansfield going alternately to Worksop and to Sheffield (direct), I wonder which would carry more pax.

 

[LowLevel]

I maintain that Worksop isn't worthy of adding ~12 minutes to a trip from elsewhere on the RHL to Sheffield. It's a scruffy hole with a centre that's all but dead. It may be useful as a connection, in which case, actually, all that's needed is good connections to/from the East at Shireoaks.

Put it this way - if there were (hypothetically) 2x trains/hour north of Mansfield going alternately to Worksop and to Sheffield (direct), I wonder which would carry more pax.

If you were to take that line you could suggest that basically the entire line north of Mansfield or at a push Shirebrook (though that has had footfall drop significantly with huge numbers travelling for Sports Direct apparently a thing of the past) isn't worthy of existing. It's dead on it's feet except for Saturdays and I'm not sure going to Sheffield rather than Worksop would do much to rehabilitate it.

 

[Harpers Tate]

It's dead on it's feet except for Saturdays and I'm not sure going to Sheffield rather than Worksop would do much to rehabilitate it.

Whereas I think that Mansfield, Shirebrook, Cresswell, Whitwell are more likely to travel to/from Sheffield (whether just that, or as means of wider connection particularly west and north) than Worksop. Indeed, I suspect, without studying, that the Saturday traffic to which you refer is going to be predominantly away from Worksop (in the mornings) rather than towards it.

 

[DimTim]

Sheffield station is not ideally placed to suit shoppers or people looking for social meeting purposes (Other than The Tap!).

I would think Shirebrook, Cresswell & Whitwell punters are likely more attracted to Meadowhall!

 

[fbm99]

I agree with a lot of the others regarding Worksop not being essential - it’s always been a bit odd to me that RHL trains terminated there rather than Retford, especially as the aim was to partly better connect Nottinghamshire by rail.

As long as there are decent connections at Shireoaks I can’t see there being too much of an issue in most cases.

Would there be any constraints in pathing/platforms at Sheffield station? A few times when travelling Lincoln-Sheffield the train has been held up to wait for a platform to become available, or the platform has had a last minute change.

 

[soccermad]

Whereas I think that Mansfield, Shirebrook, Cresswell, Whitwell are more likely to travel to/from Sheffield (whether just that, or as means of wider connection particularly west and north) than Worksop. Indeed, I suspect, without studying, that the Saturday traffic to which you refer is going to be predominantly away from Worksop (in the mornings) rather than towards it.

The Saturday traffic is mainly s/b towards Nottingham am and return pm . Mainly due to a lack of direct trains from south of Worksop to / from Sheffield I believe

 

[NCT]

I doubt the Mansfield - Sheffield flow alone is going to make a direct service wash its face. We need to think network-wide about the combination of journeys that benefit from frequency improvement and connections - 'think Swiss'.

The biggest problem is the lines going into Worksop are all hourly and uncoordinated making relatively short-distance journeys take too much time. Somewhere like Worksop ought to be a takt node - making it so would need wider network simplification, like simplifying the Leeds - Sheffield and Sheffield - Nottingham half-hourly services so Worksop's timings can be decoupled to those longer-distance services. Worksop might need some additional S&Cs so that the service from Nottingham can arrive, shut to the sidings before the Sheffield - Lincolns in both directions call simultaneously, for the unit to then shunt back out to start service towards Nottingham.

I'm surprised Worksop - Sheffield is only hourly for a relatively urbanised corridor. To me half-hourly is the minimum frequency for a service to be attractive to commuters. If there is to be a second Mansfield - Whitwell service every hour but running towards Sheffield then it should serve a secondary purpose of making Shireoaks - Sheffield half-hourly. If the standard hourly Nottingham - Worksop and Sheffield - Lincoln form a takt node at Worksop, the mathematically the Nottingham - Sheffield service needs to reverse at Worksop for the 'half hourly on all legs' service pattern work.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I maintain that Worksop isn't worthy of adding ~12 minutes to a trip from elsewhere on the RHL to Sheffield. It's a scruffy hole with a centre that's all but dead. It may be useful as a connection, in which case, actually, all that's needed is good connections to/from the East at Shireoaks.

Put it this way - if there were (hypothetically) 2x trains/hour north of Mansfield going alternately to Worksop and to Sheffield (direct), I wonder which would carry more pax.

(My bolding) That's no different to many other towns around the country, and probably makes a decent case for a link to somewhere that isn't suffering quite so much... Somewhere like Sheffield for example. As for your second paragraph I could certainly see a Sheffield service from Mansfield doing decent numbers. It would be slower from Nottingham than the Northern service via Ilkeston, but depending on departure time could be a better option than waiting an hour if you've just missed the Leeds train.

Sheffield station is not ideally placed to suit shoppers or people looking for social meeting purposes (Other than The Tap!).

I would think Shirebrook, Cresswell & Whitwell punters are likely more attracted to Meadowhall!

I agree Sheffield station isn't ideally placed for the city centre shops, but there's the tram, or it's a relatively simple change for Meadowhall (which is to be fair a traffic draw from further afield than Shirebrook). It's a shame there isn't a regular direct tram to Meadowhall from the station stop though, as that would take some pressure off the Northern services northwards from Sheffield.

 

[duffield]

(My bolding) That's no different to many other towns around the country, and probably makes a decent case for a link to somewhere that isn't suffering quite so much... Somewhere like Sheffield for example. As for your second paragraph I could certainly see a Sheffield service from Mansfield doing decent numbers. It would be slower from Nottingham than the Northern service via Ilkeston, but depending on departure time could be a better option than waiting an hour if you've just missed the Leeds train.

I agree Sheffield station isn't ideally placed for the city centre shops, but there's the tram, or it's a relatively simple change for Meadowhall (which is to be fair a traffic draw from further afield than Shirebrook). It's a shame there isn't a regular direct tram to Meadowhall from the station stop though, as that would take some pressure off the Northern services northwards from Sheffield.

As far as services from Nottingham to Sheffield via Mansfield are concerned, to be even vaguely useful timewise I think they'd have to skip nearly all the stops, otherwise you'd be much quicker waiting for the fast EMR service via Chesterfield; I suppose if you had a Northern only ticket it might just make sense though.

If there were direct tram services from Sheffield station to Meadowhall they would take 20 minutes rather than 5 minutes on the train, and I don't think the pressure on the 8tph rail services really matters in practice since I guess no-one minds cramming in and standing for just 5 minutes; however, direct tram services from the station towards Meadowhall would be really useful for all the intermediate stops (such as Carbrook for the retail park). Given that the tram junction is set up to allow it, I'm not sure why there are no regular services on this route, although changing at Fitzalan square isn't a big deal (unless you have limited mobility of course). Historically, have there ever been regular services along this route apart from possibly during disruption or engineering works?

 

[DDB]

I wonder if the purposed fusion power station at the old West Burton site will provide enough rail demand to increase the number of services on the Sheffield Gainsborough line so giving something to connect with at Worksop?

Looking at aerial photos of Worksop it looks like there is plenty of land in rail use near Worksop station to provide for a bay platform for Mansfield service to allow it to be in the station without blocking the line. Was there any thought of doing that when Mansfield to Worksop service was reintroduced?

 

[tbtc]

I doubt many British town centers would pass the "worthy of existing" test in 2025, given how dead on their feet they seem. But they persevere somehow, and if we're damning one for the state of its High Street then where do you draw the line?

Same I guess with Sheffield not having a station bang in the centre. Clearly it's not, but then neither are Nottingham/ Derby/ Leicester...

There's not a current Supertram from Sheffield Station to Meadowhall but the problem with them was always that a 'fast' service from Manor Top etc direct to Hyde Park comes at the expense of a Manor Top - City Center service AND a City Centre - Meadowhall service, so it was worth the time penalty to divert via the Cathedral. Plus, whilst a less frequent bus service can exist as a fast alternative alongside a regular stopper, the nature of trams mean people expect a simple pattern of operations

The reason I mention this is that the same applies at Worksop. A "fast" Mansfield - Sheffield train comes at the expense of a Nottingham/ Mansfield service AND a Worksop - Sheffield service. I can see the attraction of going direct but I didn't know whether the market was sufficient to sustain enough passengers

Maybe in the first instance we could beg the authorities for a single DMU to prove a bi- hourly extension of the Saturday Nottingham - Mansfield Wodhouse services one via Worksop and fairly fast to Sheffield (it's about half an hour from Mansfield Wodhouse to Worksop, plus about half an hour for the stopping services from Worksop to Sheffield, obviously you'd add on a couple of minutes for reversal but let's pretend for a moment that skipping most stations would claw that back and roughly seven minutes would be enough to recover/ reverse at Sheffield since that appears to be how long these trains get to turn around at Mansfield Wodhouse currently)... then, maybe after a few years of running we'd see whether the increase in Mansfield - Sheffield passengers outstripped the growth in those other markets, in which case we could find a second DMU to extend the remaining Mansfield Wodhouse stoppers to Sheffield but avoiding Worksop to provide a direct service?

Ideally I'd like a lot more investment in this neck of the woods than a single DMU here and there but I'm trying to find some kind of marginal improvement without wasting a whole box of Crayola. Let's see whether the East Midlands and South Yorkshire Mayors want to work together and fund cross border improvements for north Nottinghamshire, rather than the steady cuts we've seen (e.g. Worksop no longer has buses to Meadowhall/ Sheffield/ Crystal Peaks, Mansfield is down to just a bi-hourly daytime bus to Sheffield, the 757 no longer runs from Doncaster to Mansfield etc)

Also, sorry to repeat myself again... But, whilst (state run) Northern have found additional stock for services in Leeds/ Manchester etc, the service through Worksop is still only half the one that Arriva used to provide with no suggestion it'll ever return to what it once was

Similarly, whilst EMR have found additional stock for Lincoln services , the weekday Mansfield service is still only half what it had been for decades

I don't know why north Nottinghamshire fell from favor like this, maybe it needs to tick more boxes somewhere (not seen as 'the North' but too peripheral for Midlands politicians to care much about?)