Does the Bible support the teaching of hellfire? (Response to Nick W)

[All Line Rover]

IMPORTANT: This thread is basically a response to a post made my Nick W. If you find what I am about to say boring, then you don't need to bother saying so - just STOP READING IT!

My original post:

I disagree with the teaching of hell-fire. If someone can prove to me from the Bible such a teaching, please show me!

Nick W's response:

Much obliged!

Luke 16:19-31
2 Peter 3
Revelation 21:8

After a little bit of research, here is my very thorough and detailed response.

Luke 16:19-31:

This, of course, is one of Jesus' symbolic illustrations. I'm not going to explain the illustration itself, as it is irrelevant to this thread, but I will focus on verses 22-25, which I believe are the ones you are referring to.

Here is Luke 16:22-25 in the KJV translation of the Bible:

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. ​

Interestingly, the word "hell" in this verse is actually the Greek word "hai'des", or "Hades" in the English language. Many translations just use the word "Hades" instead of "hell", such as the ASV, ESV, GNT, YLT and the NIV, which I will quote:

22 The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.​

The word "Hades" is used throughout the New Testament/Christian Greek Scriptures. In the Old Testament/Hebrew Scriptures, a corresponding word - "Sheol" - is used. We know this because Acts 2:27 quotes Psalm 16:10. The word "Hades" is used in Acts 2:27, whereas the word "Sheol" is used in Psalm 16:10. It is therefore clear that the two words have the same meaning.

The word "Hades" is mentioned approximately 10 times in the "New Testament." (The word "Sheol" is mentioned approximately 66 times in the "Old Testament.") If you take the word "Hades" to mean "Hell", it leads to some very interesting translations. For example, the KJV renders Acts 2:31 (concerning Jesus) like this:

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.​

If Jesus' soul "was not left in hell," then it had to be "left in hell" for a period of time. Why on earth would Jesus have to go to hell?

Most other Bible translations use the literal word "Hades" is this verse. Two particularly interesting translations are the NIV, which says...

[Jesus] was not abandoned to the realm of the dead​

...and the CEV, which says...

God would not leave [Jesus] in the grave.​

As I have already mentioned, "Sheol" in the Old Testament is the equivalent of the word "Hades" in the New Testament, and taking this word as meaning "Hell" would also lead to some very interesting translations in the Old Testament. For example, the word "Sheol" is used in Genesis 37:34, 35, which is where Jacob learns that his son Joseph has "died" - supposedly. However, the KJV renders that passage like this:

34And Jacob rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his loins, and mourned for his son many days. 35And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.​

If the word "hell" was used in that verse, it would imply that good people such as Jacob and Joseph have gone to hell. How odd that would be!

The KJV renders the word "Sheol" as "grave" in many verses, but it also renders the word "Sheol" as "hell" in certain verses, such as Psalm 9:17:

The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.​

Isn't it interesting that the word "Sheol" (or "Hades" in the New Testement) is rendered as "hell" where it would support the teaching of hellfire, but is rendered as "grave" where using the word "hell" would not make sense?

It is clear from many verses in the Bible that words "Sheol" and "Hades" refer to the grave - not to "hell". And, what comment does the Bible make about the dead, who are in the grave? Ecclesiastes 9:5 says (KJV):

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.​

The only reason why the words "Sheol" and "Hades" are rendered as "hell" where convenient (in certain translations of the Bible) is to support the (un-biblical) teaching of hellfire. It is easy to see that the Bible does not support the teaching of hellfire when all verses which use the words "Sheol" and "Hades" are considered.

Let's remember that many Bible translations were written when the Church had enormous power over the population. They had the option of killing people if they so wished! Very few people dared to write an accurate translation of the Bible which did not support the teachings of the Church.

2 Peter Chapter 3:

I believe that you are mainly referring to verses 5-13, which I will quote from the NIV translation of the Bible:

5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.​

Although I don't believe that this passage directly supports hellfire, it is a very interesting passage, so I will do my best at explaining the gist of it.

First of all, does this passage imply that the present earth will be destroyed? No. Why? Firstly, because of verses such as Psalm 104:5 (KJV):

[God] laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.​

This verse basically implies that the earth will never be destroyed. (Yes, I know that the sun has an expiry date a few billion years in the future! But if you believe that God created everything, it seems reasonable that he can fix such a problem when the time comes for it.)

Furthermore, if you believe that God created everything - including the earth - why would he want to destroy such a beautiful planet simply because of the wicked people who inhabit it? That would seem very strange. This leads me on to my second point...

If you look at 2 Peter 3:5, 6, you will see that these verses refer to the "world" of Noah's day, which was "destroyed" by means of a flood. What was destroyed? Everything? Nope! Just the wicked people who inhabited the earth, as you well know. 2 Peter 3:7 (NIV) says:

By the same word [or means] the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.​

Note that it refers only to the judgment and destruction of "the ungodly" - like in Noah's day - rather than the entire earth.

It is evident that the following verses in 2 Peter Chapter 3 are symbolic. I will not explain them in this thread (including what the word "heaven" in that chapter refers to), because it is not relevant to this thread and wi

 

[Nick W]

Thanks for your reply! My reply will be brief as I'm on a mobile.

For these matters it is essential to get a good book - I would reccomend Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem!

I agree that hell is unimaginable - the idea of fire is an imperfect illusation.

The Greek word Hades has multiple meanings but here it doesn't make sense to mean the grave or ground but "hell" (since it has the word torment amongst other things). With Jesus it meant separation from God the Father.

As mentioned in 2 Peter 3, the present Earth will be destoryed and replaced with the New Creation, which will perfect as the world was
before sin entered the world, but sin will be no more!

It is important to read the bible to learn what God is rather than invent God. God is love and so loved the World that He gave his only Son, so that for the believer, Jesus has suffered the wrath of God (Romans 1-3) so that we CSM go free, by becoming our sin on the cross. But for non-believers, their experience shall be like Jesus on the cross, eternally. This is how God is both just and the one who justifies (through the death of Jesus).

Hope this helps and feel free to pm me.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Forgot to add - God takes no delight in people rejecting him
or experiencing his wrath.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As a Classics scholar in my younger days, I wish to inform all thread readers that HADES is originally from Greek mythology and is the oldest male child of two gods called CRONUS and RHEA. He became the God of the Underworld and of Riches.

HADES as a place was where his reign extended, but this did NOT become a belief in Greek mythology until much later, as did the story of the boatman and the River Styx.

 

[12CSVT]

Some things I was taught in the 1980s

Bible = GB Rail Timetable / British Rail Passenger Timetable
Hellfire = rateable thrash from the locos when haulage bashing

Of course the 'bible' came in handy for working out hellfire bashing moves (especially on the West Highland, Cambrian summer Saturdays etc)

 

[4SRKT]

Some things I was taught in the 1980s

Bible = GB Rail Timetable / British Rail Passenger Timetable
Hellfire = rateable thrash from the locos when haulage bashing

Of course the 'bible' came in handy for working out hellfire bashing moves (especially on the West Highland, Cambrian summer Saturdays etc)

I would agree with this, but I would say that the Bible doesn't so much support the teaching of Hellfire, as there was no symbol in the column header showing if a train was to be hauled by Hellfire traction (athough this would have been useful - imagine table 75 on a summer Saturday with loads of Hs in little boxes at the top of the columns like the Reservations Compulsory symbol).

I would say that you have to teach yourself about Hellfire, and not everyone follows the true path: after all I have met Sulzer men who seem genuinely to believe in the false God of Peak thrash . Once you have correctly taught yourself Hellfire, you can then use the Bible to inform your moves.

The current NIR Larne line timetable, still almost completely operated by EE-engined DEMUs, is the most detailed document currently available on the subject of Hellfire, and is a must for all true believers.

 

[Hydro]

Next topic of debate "Does God rate 37's?".

 

[4SRKT]

Well, seeing as Jesus built the 37s with his own hands, it would be a surprise if God didn't rate them.

With apologies to Ministry

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I note the subtle methods used to change the original thread into a gradual discussion on Passenger Rail Timetabling and the use of same and the attributes of Diesel traction.

 

[4SRKT]

In some ways bashing resembles religion, certainly in the way it causes division and bad feeling. The rivalry and ridicule between Sulzer and EE Men is like a form of sectarianism.

 

[12CSVT]

In some ways bashing resembles religion, certainly in the way it causes division and bad feeling. The rivalry and ridicule between Sulzer and EE Men is like a form of sectarianism.

Whilst I know there always has been rivalry between Sulzer and EE men, I'd very much doubt it would ever reach the extremes of sectarianism. Thankfully most, if not all of the Sulzer vs EE rivalry is more likely to be harmless mickey-taking, otherwise there'd be bloodshed and riot police every time there's a diesel gala.

 

[Minilad]

Whilst I know there always has been rivalry between Sulzer and EE men, I'd very much doubt it would ever reach the extremes of sectarianism. Thankfully most, if not all of the Sulzer vs EE rivalry is more likely to be harmless mickey-taking, otherwise there'd be bloodshed and riot police every time there's a diesel gala.

I did get clumped in the head by a Peak basher called Torrington once. Does that count !!
All I was doing was singing 16 wheels on my wagon !!

 

[thefab444]

I note the subtle methods used to change the original thread into a gradual discussion on Passenger Rail Timetabling and the use of same and the attributes of Diesel traction.

It appears to me to be an attempt to lighten the mood - some people take religion way too seriously. As for subtle, not the faintest idea what you're on about.

 

[4SRKT]

I wonder how we can fit the phrase 'my lords' into this quasi-religious analysis of the noble art of bashing?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And so Jesus took 1NR1 Nazareth > Jerusalem, booked for a massive beast of a Camel. But Judas who was an insect and jealous of The Lord's status as Top Man, did infiltrate The Embassy and a donkey dropped instead. The disciples were furious at this bowling, but rather than flag it and wait for the next move, which gave a dead connection to The Last Supper, Jesus rode the donkey. On arrival at Jerusalem the crowds flailed and bellowed wildly. At the all night Travellers' Fare Jesus broke the curled up ham sandwich and shared it among his disciples. Later Judas betrayed him to the BTP who took him away for one last Move to Oblivion.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It appears to me to be an attempt to lighten the mood - some people take religion way too seriously. As for subtle, not the faintest idea what you're on about.

One of these days, maybe when the Second Coming occurs and the understanding of the word "subtle" is understood, both you and I will concur on one single point....but there seems no sign of this ever happening at present.

Did you ever get around to reading the clarification that I made on the other thread (Posting # 77 on the Death Penalty Debate) about not having Greek fonts available to me...or did you choose to ignore it, as I thought that you would :roll:

 

[MidnightFlyer]

As for the Greek thing, that is what bolding, italification and underlininmg are for, capitalisation is an indication of shouting.

As for ignoring it, if we responded to every post in which we were quoted, can you imagine how much spam there would be?!

 

[thefab444]

Subtle - "fine or delicate in meaning or intent; difficult to perceive or understand."

Apply the above definition to the post below.

Some things I was taught in the 1980s

Bible = GB Rail Timetable / British Rail Passenger Timetable
Hellfire = rateable thrash from the locos when haulage bashing

Of course the 'bible' came in handy for working out hellfire bashing moves (especially on the West Highland, Cambrian summer Saturdays etc)

R.e. the Greek letters crisis: I did read your reply and accepted your reasoning - there is no need for me to post to confirm this, as Matt says, that'd just be spam. Incidentally, Greek letters are available in most word processing packages, or by doing a simple internet search. Simply copy and paste the required letters into your post.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Subtle - "fine or delicate in meaning or intent; difficult to perceive or understand."

Apply the above definition to the post below.



R.e. the Greek letters crisis: I did read your reply and accepted your reasoning - there is no need for me to post to confirm this, as Matt says, that'd just be spam. Incidentally, Greek letters are available in most word processing packages, or by doing a simple internet search. Simply copy and paste the required letters into your post.

Just to let you know, I have read your post :roll: :P

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As for the Greek thing, that is what bolding, italification and underlininmg are for, capitalisation is an indication of shouting.

The matter of capitalisation being equivalent of shouting was something that I was not aware of, being one of the generation approaching 70 years of age, who is still learning the niceties of computer use. I have taken your comments on board with regard to that particular matter and I thank you for your aid and assistance. I wish that my generation had grown up with computer literacy, as seems to be the case with young people today.

It is nice to see that there are some friendly members on the forum who go out of their way to be of assistance to other members in matters that need clarification. I do seem to be worried about making some postings these days in fear of a very small number of forum members who will make sarcastic comments in their replies. Surely I cannot be wrong in what I say all the time...or am I?

If this is the case, I will have to consider whether it is worth remaining a member of this forum, as I am not here to be made a butt of anyone's jokes. I only joined the forum as a hobby in my retirement and it certainly is not a pleasant experiance for me at present. I was relieved to have been on holiday in Falmouth last week, to forget all forum matters.

 

[thefab444]

Have you taken onboard my comments with regards to the availability of Greek letters on many common computer mediums in the present day? Did you take a pro-active approach to addressing this problem, with a view to using less blunt capitalisation in any future posts you may chose to make containing Greek scripture?

Or did you...

choose to ignore it, as I thought that you would

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Have you taken onboard my comments with regards to the availability of Greek letters on many common computer mediums in the present day? Did you take a pro-active approach to addressing this problem, with a view to using less blunt capitalisation in any future posts you may chose to make containing Greek scripture?

Approaching the age of 70 and being a novice in all things computer-wise, I do still have enough brain cells left to take on board the points made by MattE2010 in his very kindly worded advice to me in his posting on the matter of capitalisation. I have sent him a PM to thank him for the courteous manner in which he has helped me in this particular matter.

 

[thefab444]

I'll take that as a no then.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

With respect Paul, please answer fab's question.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'll take that as a no then.

You should have taken this as a yes not a no. I thought that the way that MattE2010 clarified matters to me was excellant and I most certainly now am aware of the fact that capitalisation equates to shouting, which I was unaware of in the past.

With regard to the useage of Greek fonts, I was unsure if the useage of these to show words as written so in texts would have been understood by many forum members, as Classics seems to have been a minority subject for many people to have studied. I still feel this to be so, but will refrain from the useage of them in the future, should I decide to remain a member of Rail UK Forums.

I trust that all your queries have now been answered by me to your satisfaction.

 

[yorkie]

I am not particularly interested in religious debate (but if people wish to debate it - that is their choice and I'll support that), so had not clicked on this thread until now.

As for the off-topic discussion, I can understand frustrations, but given that the terms "bible" and "hellfire" were (and, perhaps to some extent still are) well-used 'bashers' / rail enthusiasts terms, then the topic was almost asking for it, really!

Anyway it sounds like 'ALR' is going to be joining our cycling disused lines meets, so one day he'll meet Nick W and they can debate it in person. I won't have a clue what they're saying but I'm sure it'll be interesting

Did you ever get around to reading the clarification that I made on the other thread (Posting # 77 on the Death Penalty Debate) about not having Greek fonts available to me...or did you choose to ignore it, as I thought that you would :roll:

This is the sort of thing that is best sent as a PM.

As for the ignoring stuff, you have the right to not reply to their questions, and they have the right not to reply to yours.

I don't really know what the disagreement is about, but I'd like to call for calm and if there's a problem, let us know.

... I only joined the forum as a hobby in my retirement and it certainly is not a pleasant experience for me at present.....

...should I decide to remain a member of Rail UK Forums....

If you (or anyone else) has any concerns, please PM me. I certainly don't want to see anyone leave this forum as a result of a disagreement over Greek text (or whatever it is as I can't figure it out!)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I am not particularly interested in religious debate (but if people wish to debate it - that is their choice and I'll support that), so had not clicked on this thread until now.

This particular thread had been split, by a moderator, from the "upright circle" thread, as stated in red at the top of posting # 1. Perhaps the residual content matter and the new title given to the thread, may have brought forum members onto this thread by the terminology used elsewhere in the rail industry.

I do not wish to add anything further on this matter, as my previous posting that was sent as requested by MattE2010 should have clarified matters to the other forum member concerned. To me, the matter is now at an end and I will not answer any follow-up comments on this matter that may occur in future postings.

 

[All Line Rover]

This particular thread had been split, by a moderator, from the "upright circle" thread, as stated in red at the top of posting # 1.

I put that red text there. I felt it was best to give the topic its own thread.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Approaching the age of 70 and being a novice in all things computer-wise...

You're doing well, Paul, you're doing well.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am not particularly interested in religious debate (but if people wish to debate it - that is their choice and I'll support that), so had not clicked on this thread until now.

As for the off-topic discussion, I can understand frustrations, but given that the terms "bible" and "hellfire" were (and, perhaps to some extent still are) well-used 'bashers' / rail enthusiasts terms, then the topic was almost asking for it, really!

Anyway it sounds like 'ALR' is going to be joining our cycling disused lines meets, so one day he'll meet Nick W and they can debate it in person. I won't have a clue what they're saying but I'm sure it'll be interesting

Whilst you may have absolutely no idea what I'm going on about, I've got absolutely no idea what everyone else is going on about!

 

[talltim]

I don't understand how this thread went from being about real/rail bible bashing and to an argument about googling how to use Greek typefaces.

 

[DarloRich]

Next topic of debate "Does God rate 37's?".

I have it on good authority that God is more of a duff man - how else can you explain their ubiquity? (He has now moved on the 66’s)

I will close the door on my way out!

 

[4SRKT]

I have it on good authority that God is more of a duff man - how else can you explain their ubiquity? (He has now moved on the 66’s)

I will close the door on my way out!

Frankly this would not surprise me. Traction is like music in that the Devil has all the best tunes!