London Buses Discussion

[MotCO]

TfL Buses also seems to have got itself in a muddle over its zero emissions policy from 2030 (or if it will be 2 or3 years later), resulting in lots of short 3 year tenders with existing buses which is storing up trouble for 2-3 years time.

And add in the fact that 1,000 NBfL Borismasters will soon need to be replaced.

If anything, TFL should move towards owning the garages and buses fully and then more flexible practices could be adopted such as short runs and garage runs

Surely the issue is whether or not garages have surplus capacity, and therefore the assets are being 'sweated'. If all garages are, say, only 75% utilised (particularly if routes and PVRs are being reduced, then the overhead cost is split over fewer buses / routes, thereby increasing the prices of the tenders. Sweating the assets could reduce tender prices, but that would only work if the possibility of losing routes or PVR in the future was not priced in. The only way that could work is if tenders were let on a garage by garage basis, not individual routes, but that would probably limit competition and result in higher on tender bids, unless operators were happy to sell garages to the winning bidder, which is unlikely.

 

[Bishopstone]

I was looking at the most recent audited accounts of East London Bus & Coach Company Ltd (a component of Stagecoach London) recently, and the loss was dire, to the extent that if you weren't taking comfort from the covenant of the parent company, you'd be seriously concerned about solvency. The notes to the accounts alluded to routes being re-tendered on more favourable (realistic) terms, to right the situation over time.

Through astute contracting (kudos to TfL), a transfer of value has been obtained from bus company shareholders to the public purse. But it's not surprising that the bus groups are eager to bring this to an end.

 

[Statto]

And add in the fact that 1,000 NBfL Borismasters will soon need to be replaced.

The oldest coming up to 14 years old in February, i'd forgotten how old they are, that's gone quick.

 

[bb21]

Too many buses in London as it is. They need cutting back. Some night routes and 24/7 routes seem to carry not much else than stale air.

I don't think cutting night bus routes is the way forward as most of them are only running 2bph and it is what makes London living flexible and attractive, and safer at the same time for many.

What is bonkers is night buses costing the same as day journeys despite costing far more to run. No reason why they can't bring N-prefixes back and charge £1 extra per journey (if boarding pre-0430 to align with daily capping deadline). Regular commuters can be protected by them being included in season tickets or weekly capping, and if on daily capping inclusion of night buses can be done for a £1 premium on the first journey or even excluded completely.

 

[johncrossley]

What is bonkers is night buses costing the same as day journeys despite costing far more to run.

Is that actually the case? Night buses don't get caught up in traffic as much, meaning fewer vehicles and drivers are required compared to running the equivalent day service at the same frequency.

 

[Thirteen]

I don't think cutting night bus routes is the way forward as most of them are only running 2bph and it is what makes London living flexible and attractive, and safer at the same time for many.

What is bonkers is night buses costing the same as day journeys despite costing far more to run. No reason why they can't bring N-prefixes back and charge £1 extra per journey (if boarding pre-0430 to align with daily capping deadline). Regular commuters can be protected by them being included in season tickets or weekly capping, and if on daily capping inclusion of night buses can be done for a £1 premium on the first journey or even excluded completely.

Surely adding a £1 premium would affect night shift workers, doesn't seem fair.

 

[Statto]

Surely adding a £1 premium would affect night shift workers, doesn't seem fair.

Not just night shift workers, there are plenty that use night buses for early morning shift, i've been on an N15 (around 3.15am from Romford) which gets full by the time it reaches Aldgate, with a load going to work.

Back in the day, LT night buses did have a premium fare, i seem to remember it was £2 in the 90s (think some short journey's were £1), when the max day fare was £1.20, this is when LT buses had zonal fares, but the night routes then weren't to the extent they are now, & most of them went through Trafalgar Square, i still have a LT night bus timetable guide for 1994.

 

[PGAT]

We probably should’ve learned by now that austerity is not the way out..

 

[Julia]

The oldest coming up to 14 years old in February, i'd forgotten how old they are, that's gone quick.

Does anyone know what's happened to the batch that was on the SL3? None seem to have tracked since May-ish, which makes me think they are the first routine withdrawals (i.e. not accident-related) and if so, don't have much of a future...

 

[bb21]

Surely adding a £1 premium would affect night shift workers, doesn't seem fair.

Most workers would have a weekly or longer pass so shouldn't be affected. The only ones affected will be the occasional travellers. Yes some people will lose out but that will likely be a small number, and unfortunately when you make changes to a system without additional funding there will always be people who will lose out, but the smaller the affected number can be the fairer the system is generally.

 

[aron2smith]

We probably should’ve learned by now that austerity is not the way out..

Sadly not looking at some of these replies. What is clear is we are living fully under the effects of austerity now. It's far worse than money, there are capacity and structural issues handicapping everything now. Government and councils need to create demand now! A new deal level of investment is needed as well as some kind of vision and ambition for the future.

Also another way of looking at London buses reportedly losing £1 billion a year is the Farebox Recovery. For the tube, this is 129% and buses 70% in 2023. Given the number of concessions offered in London, I'd say this is really good and at a level many neighbouring countries would be really happy with. As many are happy getting 50%+ fare recovery.

TFL would be far better to prioritise buses a lot more now some decent cycling infrastructure is established. Make buses run faster and the problem more or less sorts itself. Just wonder what it takes for them to admit the blanket 20mph zones was a mistake. I'd say some places need network reviews to make the services more efficient but that comes from London having far from ideal boundaries. Transport needs its own boundaries.

Not like the solutions aren't out there, the proposed cuts are really them giving up.

 

[PGAT]

Does anyone know what's happened to the batch that was on the SL3? None seem to have tracked since May-ish, which makes me think they are the first routine withdrawals (i.e. not accident-related) and if so, don't have much of a future...

They are to be used on the SL11 in the meantime before it receives electric vehicles

 

[Mark L]

They are to be used on the SL11 in the meantime before it receives electric vehicles

Most (all?) certainly were parked up at West Ham awaiting their fate which may take them to the SL11.

 

[Intro298]

Most workers would have a weekly or longer pass so shouldn't be affected. The only ones affected will be the occasional travellers. Yes some people will lose out but that will likely be a small number, and unfortunately when you make changes to a system without additional funding there will always be people who will lose out, but the smaller the affected number can be the fairer the system is generally.

What about the night routes with good cost recovery? Not every night route runs empty, and a good number are very well used. The N18 for example is busy enough to warrant an every 7-8 minute frequency busier nights, which is more than most day routes.

Additionally, since this is all about saving money, would you also suggest applying this surcharge to day routes that have a poorer cost recovery than the busier night routes? Late evening buses are also often lightly loaded, especially in Outer London or 'against the flow' towards Central London between Sunday and Thursday.

More importantly, how in any way would you be able to surcharge journeys at late nights when most frequencies are already poor, without pushing passengers towards using alternatives, especially when bus patronage is steadily falling despite the benefits of a fares freeze?

Surcharging at night is a short sighted idea, as buses are already seen as the slower and unattractive (yet cheap) option compared to taxis, and would only lead to more cuts as more passengers ditch the bus, continuing the circle of austerity.

 

[700007]

They are to be used on the SL11 in the meantime before it receives electric vehicles

Even then my understanding is not all of them will be used as some internal vehicles from the operator (GAL) will also be used.

 

[PGAT]

Even then my understanding is not all of them will be used as some internal vehicles from the operator (GAL) will also be used.

That is probably because the Peak Vehicle Requirement of the SL11 (20) is greater than the number of LTs available, although I would've speculated the EL2's recent cut free up a few more to bridge that difference

 

[Thirteen]

I noticed the other day that the 35 is using BYD BD11 buses, I assume this is just temporary.

 

[Intro298]

I noticed the other day that the 35 is using BYD BD11 buses, I assume this is just temporary.

The BYD BD11s in use on the 35 are allocated to the 188, which is also based at Go-Ahead's Camberwell [Q] garage.

How long these strays will last is anyone's guess, as the 35 is allocated hybrids and the BD11 strays are resulting in daily hybrid workings on the contractually electric 188. Looking ahead, [Q] now has a sizeable fleet of electric buses for the 40, 185 and 188, so there are likely enough electric spares to facilitate daily strays onto the 35, even if the garage becomes stricter about allowing hybrids onto their electric routes.

 

[renegademaster]

We probably should’ve learned by now that austerity is not the way out..

TfL can't print money

 

[PGAT]

TfL can't print money

They also can’t afford a doom spiral.

 

[renegademaster]

They also can’t afford a doom spiral.

They'd get a harder doom spiral if they go bankrupt and get forced to accept a treaty of versailles calling for massive cuts when the government assumes their debts

 

[Railguy1]

Anyone know why several info waiting time displays at bus stops in the Pinner/North Harrow area are no longer working?

 

[Mattplans]

Too many buses in London as it is. They need cutting back. Some night routes and 24/7 routes seem to carry not much else than stale air.

I suspect this isn't your firsthand experience, perhaps just an assumption. N routes in London are insanely popular, especially on Friday & Saturday evenings.

Cycle lanes and priority schemes, reducing space for all road traffic (including buses).
20mph speed limits across most of inner London.

It's hardly surprising buses are becoming less attractive.

No lie told. I used the route 17 that runs between London Bridge and Archway last week. As a commuter to King's Cross/Chancery Lane/Gray's Inn Road area I have used the Northern and Central lines, Thameslink, and even cycled the route in the past. This journey took a lot longer than was needed, aside from the Uber which was behaving idiotically which I presume doesn't take place on every run, the speed was just so slow and I fail to see how this can be considered an attractive option to anyone. I'm not really a fan of restricting the roads of London even further, but what else can be done to improve the reliability and speed of buses? The 20mph limits have to go, I agre

 

[Bishopstone]

I'm not really a fan of restricting the roads of London even further, but what else can be done to improve the reliability and speed of buses? The 20mph limits have to go, I agre

- Review bus stop locations and remove some closely-spaced stops.
- Allow buses to move at 30mph, where safe to do so, in all 20mph zones. No doubt legislation would be needed.
- Increase the congestion charge significantly. Remove most exemptions/discounts for private motorists, but have a much lower rate for trades people using vans/trucks for necessary business purpose.

 

[Chiltern006]

I have noticed that some of the new BD11s have limiters on them (there’s a sticker on the back saying they are limited to the local limit) and older buses are being retrofitted with it. Could this also be a cause of the issues?

 

[PGAT]

I know most will disagree with me but speed limits are a red herring. They only really slow down a bus at very quiet times of long stretches of road where speeds can be prolonged.

It does feel like the epidemic of roadworks and temporary traffic lights is worsening and this is the culprit of the citywide problem of lower bus speeds (20mph limits is only borough to borough)

 

[Intro298]

I have noticed that some of the new BD11s have limiters on them (there’s a sticker on the back saying they are limited to the local limit) and older buses are being retrofitted with it. Could this also be a cause of the issues?

Since 2019, TfL's spec has required all new buses to be fitted with ISA (Intelligent Speed Assist). This system limits the bus to the legal speed limit of any road within Greater London using GPS technology, and can't be manually overridden by the driver.

Where possible older buses have also been retrofitted with this technology, although for whatever reason, TfL hasn't elected to install it on their LTs during refurbishment.

However, the 'limited to the local limit' stickers have no bearing on whether or not a bus is actually fitted with the technology. The stickers are now a TfL spec requirement, and consequently, even buses that can't have ISA fitted have gained them. If you want to be nosy, ISA is usually shown on the dashboard of a bus in the form of a speed limit sign (in the same style as the physical ones), and a green speedometer icon.

 

[Statto]

I suspect this isn't your firsthand experience, perhaps just an assumption. N routes in London are insanely popular, especially on Friday & Saturday evenings.

Indeed, plus the Tube doesn't run overnight (same with most trains), so night routes routes to/from Central London are often full, i've been on the N9 a few times (around 01.35 Aldwych to Heathrow) & that was full by the time it got to Hyde Park Corner, journey's from Heathrow were full too, N15 & N29 are a couple of the busiest night routes too, & have 10 minute frequency that justifies it, some use night routes for to get to work, mostly the early shift, i've been on an N15 which has been full by the time that reached Aldgate around 04.40, with those going for early shift.

 

[johncrossley]

I know most will disagree with me but speed limits are a red herring. They only really slow down a bus at very quiet times of long stretches of road where speeds can be prolonged.

It does feel like the epidemic of roadworks and temporary traffic lights is worsening and this is the culprit of the citywide problem of lower bus speeds (20mph limits is only borough to borough)

When the average speed of a London bus route is about 10 mph (considerably lower in inner London where most of the main road 20 mph limits are), clearly the speed limit isn't much of a factor. You would be grateful if buses could always reach 20 mph between stops!

 

[bakerstreet]

2024/25 top 20 TfL bus routes.

Interesting stats albeit somewhat unreliable due to some major route changes, methodology change and the cyber incident.

Annual London Bus Passenger Usage Analysis:


2024/25 vs 2014/15

Rank	Route	Usage 2024/25	Usage (2014/15)	Absolute change	% change
1	18	12,102,221	17,744,870	-5,642,649	- 31.8%
2	149	11,915,86l	14,902,062	-2,986,201	-20.0%
3	29	11,309,271	16,540,63l	-5,231,360	-31.6%
4	207	10,362,918	12,598,583	-2,235,665	-17.7%
5	86	10,103,600	12,201,41l	-2,097,811	-17.2%
6	5	10,075,376	12,543,269	-2,467,893	-19.7%
7	243	9,863,699	12,883,271	-3,019,572	-23.4%
8	279	9,739,228	11,620,548	-1,881,320	-16.2%
9	36	9,733,492	10,723,126	-989,634	-9.2%
10	109	9,618,101	10,437,699	-819,598	-7.9%
11	35	9,599,774	8,177,443	+1,422,33l	+17.4%
12	25	9,305,724	22,837,457	-13,53l,733	-59.3%
13	53	9,062,642	10,795,860	-1,733,218	-16.1%
14	141	8,967,528	10,007,475	-1,039,947	-10.4%
15	38	8,579,455	13,232,007	-4,652,552	- 35.2%
16	55	8,472,762	8,593,630	-120,868	-1.4%
17	158	8,399,284	6,553,770	+1,845,514	+28.2%
18	182	8,328,205	8,624,382	-296,177	-3.4%
19	140	8,289,348	11,617,850	-3,328,502	-28.6%
20	43	8,261,129	11,395,687	-3,134,558	-27.5%

Important Notes:

2024 Cyber Incident: A cyber-attack on TfL (Sept-Nov 2024) disrupted photocard applications.

Data includes adjustments for passengers unable to 'tap in' during this period.

Methodology Change: A new tracking method was introduced in 2017 to better estimate 'non-touch-ins' (e.g. under-Ils). This may affect direct comparisons with 2014/15 data.

Route Restructuring: Large usage drops (notably Route 25) usually reflect shortened routes or reduced frequencies rather than just falling demand.

Night Services: Figures exclude night bus versions of these routes (prefixed with "N'), which are recorded separately.

Data Consistency: Route-level totals may vary slightly from TfL Annual Reports due to different network-level adjustment methods.

Reporting Periods: 2024/25 data covers 6 April 2024 to 4 April 2025; 2014/15 data covers that full financial year.

Data Source: Bus service usage: passengers and kilometres operated by route 2024/25

Buses performance data

Network performance statistics and customer feedback can tell us a lot about how well our bus services are operating - and what we can do to improve them

TfL.gov.uk

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