Northern New Fleet and Cascade allocations (speculation).

[pokemonsuper9]

I figured this needed its own thread.

Will the North East get more 158s or the new MMUs?

They have said new trains would arrive in the North East by 2030/31.

That’s an email I got back from them with regards this question in May.

Why would the North East need the MMU's quite early on?
There's hardly much distance under wires covered as part of most diagrams up there, just the Newcastle - Morpeth part of the Morpeth - Carlisle and the few per day direct Darlington - Newcastle via Durham.


Buxton has been shown on Stakeholder Presentations for the first 8 4 car Battery units, which I think is perfect for them, plenty of time under the wires between Hazel Grove and Manchester (especially on the diagrams that do a mini-trip to Hazel Grove before going to Buxton). It looks like there are about 5 Buxton diagrams (hard to figure out with the peak time strengthening, which wouldn't be needed with fixed length 4 cars).

I think Windermere (and by extension Barrow[1]) are pretty clear contenders for Multi-Mode units, Windermere - Manchester Airport is 92 miles, only 10 of which don't have wires[2], and Barrow is 69 of 98 miles Electrified), which would free up 195s to cascade 158s (e.g. Wigan - Leeds) onto 150/156 diagrams to go to scrap.

The Southport services are prime for multi-mode trains, it already has them (they just need to not break down every day), I could easily see a 1 for 1 replacement of 769 by MMU (if they last into the 2030s)

In addition I think Sheffield-Leeds via Wakefield Westgate, with wires until Fitzwilliam / South Kirkby Junction (20 miles of 39 electrified) is in for a shot, but I think that depends on platform capacity issues at Leeds being dealt with so longer trains can be used.

[1] Future of this service probably depends on how the Whitehaven tunnel gets dealt with, that already has its own speculative thread.
[2] They shuttle back and forth to Oxenholme for 2 hours before going back, but they've got diesel engines if the battery drops too low and can top it up at Oxenholme if 60 miles without a charge is too far.

Anyone else got any ideas for good contenders for early replacement with multi-mode trains?

 

[bluenoxid]

I might have misunderstood this query. Has the battery/off wire range of these units been specified? Has the minimum unit length been set (eg 2, 3 or 4 carriages)

Regarding the North East, it will depend how much time they need under the wires to run for the day. Am I right in thinking that all the “North East stock” ends the day under electrified wires at Darlington and Heaton?

I think the Lancaster-Morecambe and Leeds-Morecambe are contenders.

Blackpool-York is a contender with electrification at either end by the time these units arrive. Blackpool South, Ormskirk and Colne operations might make it depending on range

CLC line Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester is a contender.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Has the battery range of these units been specified?

No, it probably partially depends on which manufacturuer's option is chosen, and advancements in battery technology over the next year or so.

Has the minimum unit length been set (eg 2, 3 or 4 carriages)

All either 3 or 4 carriages
Phase 1:

Lot 1: - EMU required for passenger service 2029-30 with an estimated requirement of 12 x 3-vehicle units.
Lot 2: - MMU required for passenger service 2030-31 with an estimated requirement of 48 x 3-vehicle units and 64 x 4-vehicle units.
Lot 3: - BEMU required for passenger service 2032 with an estimated initial requirement of 8 x 4-vehicle units.

Phase 2: (not as up to date, may have changed)

Lot 1: - EMU estimated requirement of 34 x 3-vehicle units and 16 x 4-vehicle units.
Lot 2: - MMU estimated requirement of 30 x 3-vehicle units and 20 x 4-vehicle units.
Lot 3: - BEMU estimated requirement of 26 x 4-vehicle units.

Lancaster-Morecambe and Leeds-Morecambe

Platform 1 at Lancaster isn't electrified, which might cause issues, but assuming changeover can be done on the move leaving Carnforth southbound, the Bentham line services are a good call.
Leeds-Morecambe 34 of 74 miles electrified (46%).

Blackpool-York is a contender with electrification at either end by the time these units arrive.

Yes, 44/105 miles electrified (42%) once York-Leeds is live.

Blackpool South, Ormskirk and Colne operations might make it depending on range

I don't know how worthy they are of the Multi-Modes, Colne and Ormskirk seem like perfect routes for 2 car 195s, only wires from Preston to where they diverge from the WCML, Blackpool South makes sense but as long as the services are linked, I can't see them being a priority.
I was going to point out Kirkham and Wesham platform 1 isn't wired, but OpenRailwayMap indicates it is either under construction or proposed, so that'd be 7.75 of 20 (38.75%) electrified

CLC line Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester is a contender.

Maybe, but 6 of 34 miles Electrified (17%) doesn't really seem to be screaming out for multi-modes.


For the ones I quoted earlier:
Manchester Airport - Barrow is 69 of 98 miles electrified (70%)
Manchester Airport - Windermere is 82 of 92 miles electrified (89%)
A full Manchester Airport - Windermere - Oxenholme - Windemere - Oxenholme - Windermere - Manchester Airport is 164 of 224 (73%) + charge time at Oxenholme
Stalybridge - Southport is 27 of 45.5 (59%)
Oxford Road - Southport is 20 of 37.5 (53%)

 

[bluenoxid]

Route mileage electrified is not going to be the only driver. Part of it will be time under the wire during the entire diagram and charge rates in different modes (parked, accelerating, braking, etc). CLC trains are spending time at both ends of the route.

 

[Halish Railway]

Having bi-mode 100mph rolling stock will make it much easier to introduce the often suggested Newcastle to Middlesbrough via Durham and Stockton service, pending infrastructure improvements. Aside from that and the Morpeth services (assuming they don’t go all the way to Carlisle) I don’t see any other North East services being worked my MMUs.

All other routes ideal for for MMUs that I can think of are:
- York to Blackpool North as previously mentioned is a pretty good one, hopefully with 4 car units
- Hull to Halifax if it continues to run. I can easily this service starting from Selby as there are plans for TPE to run 2tph to Hull.
- Hull to York
- Manchester Piccadilly to Chester via Stockport
- Manchester Piccadilly to Rose Hill Marple via Guide Bridge (would work as a BEMU route as well)
- Southport to Manchester as previously mentioned
- Headbolt Lane to Blackburn
- Clitheroe/Blackburn to Rochdale
- CLC services as previously mentioned.
- Manchester Airport to Cumbria as previously mentioned
- Leeds/Lancaster to Morecambe as previously mentioned
- Leeds to Sheffield via Wakefield Westgate, both fast and slow.

In reality the new MMUs are likely to appear on many more routes than just these given the number of 150s, 155s and 156s out there.

It’s also worth mentioning that there are quite a few routes out there that lend themselves to discontinuous electrification, the Harrogate line being an obvious candidate.

 

[DanNCL]

I figured this needed its own thread.


Why would the North East need the MMU's quite early on?
There's hardly much distance under wires covered as part of most diagrams up there, just the Newcastle - Morpeth part of the Morpeth - Carlisle and the few per day direct Darlington - Newcastle via Durham.

Newcastle - Morpeth iirc is set to become a self contained service so that’ll be a couple of units under the wires all day bar the shunt at Morpeth itself. But I think a perhaps more pressing thing here is that 158s simply aren’t suitable for half the work in the North East because of their slow dwell times and their 90mph gearing, that of course hasn’t stopped them from running the Tees Valley and Ashington but those two routes really need stock with doors at the thirds and more capacity. So the options if you’re to solve those problems are either cascade in 195s or bring new build stock in - the latter will be more politically acceptable.

 

[xotGD]

Leeds/Lancaster to Morecambe as previously mentioned

Bentham Line services are inter-worked with S&C services. Of course, the latter would also use the juice as far as Skipton, and can pan-up at Carlisle between services for hotel power.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I was thinking more Penistone line and South Yorkshire stopping services, always back of the queue.

Given (as far as I can tell) none of the Penistone line is electrified (same with the route to Lincoln, Doncaster, Hull etc), South Yorkshire probably isn't going to be top of the list for bi-modes.

 

[Geeves]

My speculation too is that the NE will become the home of the entire 195 fleet, also that covers the Cumbrian Coast as Bi modes wouldn't be any use there. As said there's lots of routes with zero wires and very little chance of them ever being wired. It operates mostly as a stand alone entity as it is.

 

[rattyben]

I might have misunderstood this query. Has the battery/off wire range of these units been specified? Has the minimum unit length been set (eg 2, 3 or 4 carriages)

Regarding the North East, it will depend how much time they need under the wires to run for the day. Am I right in thinking that all the “North East stock” ends the day under electrified wires at Darlington and Heaton?

I think the Lancaster-Morecambe and Leeds-Morecambe are contenders.

Blackpool-York is a contender with electrification at either end by the time these units arrive. Blackpool South, Ormskirk and Colne operations might make it depending on range

CLC line Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester is a contender.

Will the MMU units even have a pantograph? Northerns own website suggests MMU should ready for later conversion to EMU/BEMU maybe I have misunderstood but my original questions to Northern where in relation to Durham Coastline Boro to Newcastle.

I was surprised by the response tbh, I’d expected internal cascades to that route of either more 158, 195 or 170s as new trains comes into service.

Two car services at peak however is a big problem now so I dread to think what that will look like in 2030.

The Metro wiring through Sunderland obviously makes any future conversion to EMU a bit pointless.

Also Hartlepool to Darlington direct service is due to be in place 2029 so not sure what impact that has.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Will the MMU units even have a pantograph?

Yes, just like TfW's Class 756s which can run using a Pantograph on Overhead Wires, on Diesel or on Batteries (the same applies to the Class 93 locomotive)

Northerns own website suggests MMU should ready for later conversion to EMU/BEMU

Yes, the idea is that once batteries are good enough/enough electrification is present, the diesel engines can be replaced with batteries and run purely on electricity, or if enough areas are electrified, remove the batteries and diesel entirely and run just as an electric multiple unit.

maybe I have misunderstood but my original questions to Northern where in relation to Durham Coastline Boro to Newcastle.

I would imagine that to have Class 195s cascaded to it.

My speculation too is that the NE will become the home of the entire 195 fleet, also that covers the Cumbrian Coast as Bi modes wouldn't be any use there. As said there's lots of routes with zero wires and very little chance of them ever being wired. It operates mostly as a stand alone entity as it is.

Does anyone know how many units/carriages the North East currently has allocated? The 195 fleet is 58 units totalling 149 carriages.

 

[py_megapixel]

Given (as far as I can tell) none of the Penistone line is electrified (same with the route to Lincoln, Doncaster, Hull etc), South Yorkshire probably isn't going to be top of the list for bi-modes.

There is actually a tiny bit of electrified line in South Yorkshire - the section through Rotherham Central that is electrified so that Supertram can use it. There's also electrification in the Doncaster area of course, with it being on the ECML.

But yes, I agree with your sentiment... unfortunately it looks like Sheffield itself will be stuck with DMUs until battery units start to arrive in significant volumes.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

There is actually a tiny bit of electrified line in South Yorkshire - the section through Rotherham Central that is electrified so that Supertram can use it.

Although (and the same applies to the Tyne and Wear Metro shared section), I don't beleive the new units will have 750V / 1500V DC capability from the overhead wires, only 25KV/50HZ, it probably wouldn't be worth implementing for an overall very small bit of track.

 

[rattyben]

Yes, just like TfW's Class 756s which can run using a Pantograph on Overhead Wires, on Diesel or on Batteries (the same applies to the Class 93 locomotive)

Yes, the idea is that once batteries are good enough/enough electrification is present, the diesel engines can be replaced with batteries and run purely on electricity, or if enough areas are electrified, remove the batteries and diesel entirely and run just as an electric multiple unit.

I would imagine that to have Class 195s cascaded to it.


Does anyone know how many units/carriages the North East currently has allocated? The 195 fleet is 58 units totalling 149 carriages.

Planned formations Mon-Fri are (Middlesbrough to Newcastle services)
35 x 2 car 156
4 x 4 car 156
6 x 2 car 158

 

[tbtc]

In addition I think Sheffield-Leeds via Wakefield Westgate, with wires until Fitzwilliam / South Kirkby Junction (20 miles of 39 electrified) is in for a shot, but I think that depends on platform capacity issues at Leeds being dealt with so longer trains can be used

Good idea for a thread

There's current one hourly Northern service per hour to Sheffield via Westgate, with a second one coming in a few days, both of which would suit bi-modes.

It's frustrating that (under current plans) there won't be any charging available in Sheffield for those trains (until the MML is finally wired, which may be decades away!)

The Leeds platform capacity issue affects the "via Kirkgate" services (which share the short Platform Seventeen at Leeds with the Castleford trains, meaning neither is longer than two coaches)

There's no terrible suggestions though. With the exception of a handful of minor branches like Whitby, there's not many Northern services that don't spend any time under wires at some point. It's just hard to prioritise them.

Do you have small multi mode fleets in several depots or do you focus them in one area? Politics suggests the former but engineering/staffing etc may prefer the latter!

(The Morpeth situation is annoying, the 1980s pennypinching means you couldn't run it with a pure EMU because the short spur it reverses in wasn't wired)

 

[stevieinselby]

Will the MMU units even have a pantograph? Northerns own website suggests MMU should ready for later conversion to EMU/BEMU maybe I have misunderstood but my original questions to Northern where in relation to Durham Coastline Boro to Newcastle.

It could be as simple as wanting to be able to easily remove the diesel generators once they are no longer required, to reduce weight, rather than needing anything to be added as part of the conversion.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Do you have small multi mode fleets in several depots or do you focus them in one area? Politics suggests the former but engineering/staffing etc may prefer the latter!

Yes I was thinking earlier that from an engineering point of view it would be best to collect them in one place first.
I would be biased in saying it should be around Manchester, but I don't think that'd be incorrect to say.

 

[Killingworth]

This is the slide from the recent Stakeholder Conference. It's indicative and subject to changes.

Note Infrastructure Depot and network requirements.

As an example, I'd imagine wiring a siding at Morpeth would be a fairly easy fix.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I hadn't noticed before but it does say right there that the first MMU services will be in the North West, I wonder if that's currently planned for Southport, Barrow/Windermere, or something else.

 

[Anvil1984]

(The Morpeth situation is annoying, the 1980s pennypinching means you couldn't run it with a pure EMU because the short spur it reverses in wasn't wired

Indeed and compacted with the fact there’s no signalling to allow a down (northbound) platform to up (southbound) loop just north platform to south main) nor a crossover to allow movement from down loop to up platform as the loops are electrified


For what it’s worth my prediction for the North East is

Short term: Heaton takes on the TFW 158s to replace similar number of 156s which move to the North West. 156s primarily kept for Cumbrian Coast work but have Tyne Valley work due to needing to go to and from Heaton

Longer Term: Remaining 156s then 158s replaced by mostly 195s. Some bi- mode units used in the North East for political reasons (pacify those who say the North East always gets Northern’s Scraps)

However 2031 is a long way away and everything can change with a government ministers pen

 

[darloscott]

Just something to throw in here… can you use 195s at stations with curved platforms? Mainly thinking of Hartlepool here…

 

[Anvil1984]

Just something to throw in here… can you use 195s at stations with curved platforms? Mainly thinking of Hartlepool here…

Yeah, there’s curvier platforms than Hartlepools which have trains with similar located doors stop at them. Possibly some modifications done if needs be

 

[Charlie978]

Yeah, there’s curvier platforms than Hartlepools which have trains with similar located doors stop at them. Possibly some modifications done if needs be

195s have the odd venture down the Penistone line and at Penistone there is a very curvy platform they stop at.

 

[py_megapixel]

331s, which have similar bodies (although I couldn't tell you if their floor height is the same), stop at Dinting platform 2 and Cheadle Hulme platform 3 which are both very curved.

 

[Snow1964]

It appears that there will not be any 5car workings as all units will be 3car or 4car. Of course you could double up units and get 6car, or longer.

I do wonder what the thinking is with 3car and 4car MMU, and not say 3car and 5car. It seems to me if 3car is insufficient and isn't long enough, then 4car is already busy and doesn't allow for growth. Is this short sighted.

I did wonder if it is due to platform lengths, but if any platforms are around 100-130m long then not going to be able to double up units (unless they overhang platforms with selective door) but these length platforms are much longer than a 4car unit.

Basically are the 4car units too short for extra capacity, where a 3car is insufficient, and should they be 5car instead.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Just something to throw in here… can you use 195s at stations with curved platforms? Mainly thinking of Hartlepool here…

Civities regularly stop at the incredibly curved Earlestown (195s and 197s), as well as quite curved Carnforth (195s), Dinting (331s), and more.

The new trains will surely also have doors at thirds or quarters, so wouldn't be much different in terms of door location and gap size.

 

[Elecman]

Just something to throw in here… can you use 195s at stations with curved platforms? Mainly thinking of Hartlepool here…

Accrington says hello

 

[ScottGallagher]

Indeed and compacted with the fact there’s no signalling to allow a down (northbound) platform to up (southbound) loop just north platform to south main) nor a crossover to allow movement from down loop to up platform as the loops are electrified


For what it’s worth my prediction for the North East is

Short term: Heaton takes on the TFW 158s to replace similar number of 156s which move to the North West. 156s primarily kept for Cumbrian Coast work but have Tyne Valley work due to needing to go to and from Heaton

Longer Term: Remaining 156s then 158s replaced by mostly 195s. Some bi- mode units used in the North East for political reasons (pacify those who say the North East always gets Northern’s Scraps)

However 2031 is a long way away and everything can change with a government ministers pen

Yes i'd imagine the Cumbrian Coast will be where the final 156 units will retire as 158 cant go north of Barrow unless something is done about that.

 

[Class 323 Fan]

I figured this needed its own thread.


Why would the North East need the MMU's quite early on?
There's hardly much distance under wires covered as part of most diagrams up there, just the Newcastle - Morpeth part of the Morpeth - Carlisle and the few per day direct Darlington - Newcastle via Durham.


Buxton has been shown on Stakeholder Presentations for the first 8 4 car Battery units, which I think is perfect for them, plenty of time under the wires between Hazel Grove and Manchester (especially on the diagrams that do a mini-trip to Hazel Grove before going to Buxton). It looks like there are about 5 Buxton diagrams (hard to figure out with the peak time strengthening, which wouldn't be needed with fixed length 4 cars).

I think Windermere (and by extension Barrow[1]) are pretty clear contenders for Multi-Mode units, Windermere - Manchester Airport is 92 miles, only 10 of which don't have wires[2], and Barrow is 69 of 98 miles Electrified), which would free up 195s to cascade 158s (e.g. Wigan - Leeds) onto 150/156 diagrams to go to scrap.

The Southport services are prime for multi-mode trains, it already has them (they just need to not break down every day), I could easily see a 1 for 1 replacement of 769 by MMU (if they last into the 2030s)

In addition I think Sheffield-Leeds via Wakefield Westgate, with wires until Fitzwilliam / South Kirkby Junction (20 miles of 39 electrified) is in for a shot, but I think that depends on platform capacity issues at Leeds being dealt with so longer trains can be used.

[1] Future of this service probably depends on how the Whitehaven tunnel gets dealt with, that already has its own speculative thread.
[2] They shuttle back and forth to Oxenholme for 2 hours before going back, but they've got diesel engines if the battery drops too low and can top it up at Oxenholme if 60 miles without a charge is too far.

Anyone else got any ideas for good contenders for early replacement with multi-mode trains?

I’d reckon the Hope Valley could do with some BEMUs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Dec 2025 ==

331s, which have similar bodies (although I couldn't tell you if their floor height is the same), stop at Dinting platform 2 and Cheadle Hulme platform 3 which are both very curved.

331s don’t serve the Glossop and Hadfield Line, that’s only class 323s

 

[sprinterguy]

Planned formations Mon-Fri are (Middlesbrough to Newcastle services)
35 x 2 car 156
4 x 4 car 156
6 x 2 car 158

Worth noting that the Durham Coast route on its own doesn't require nearly so many actual unit diagrams, of course - So far as I can establish from Realtime Trains, there are essentially 8 x 2-car all day diagrams for that line, though in reality there is some unit rotation over the course of the day.

Heaton's allocation, at my count, is a total of 34 class 156s, of which 23 are currently required in service on North East diagrams (including the 3 presently in use on the truncated Carlisle - Whitehaven Cumbrian Coast service), and 17 class 158s, of which 9 are required in service.

Essentially, 58 class 195s would more than cover the unit requirement in the North East while allowing for a useful capacity uplift to 3-car and additional 4-car formations.