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Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

JonathanH

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Looking at East Croydon - Sevenoaks to get an idea of what's likely to happen for Tonbridge, the default route appears to assume travel via London.
Redhill to Sevenoaks currently has Ovalised fares for the "Not London" and "Any Permitted" routes, and legacy fares for the "Edenbridge" route.

The result of this is that the off-peak day return is cheaper via Edenbridge, but the single fares are cheaper for the other two. Clearly, Contactless isn't valid via Edenbridge.

Given the fares to GA destinations aren't updated for the stations between Redhill and Tonbridge or Reigate and Guildford, I am not convinced that they are in Phase 3.
 
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Haywain

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If I travel Croydon to Tonbridge the system needs to know whether I’ve gone via London Bridge or via Redhill in order to charge an appropriate fare.
The system doesn't need to know which route you have taken if there is only one fare. You are assuming separate fares will be set.
 

londonbridge

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Well that’s the thing, they need to find a way to sort the fares where there is clearly more than one valid route.

To clarify, I occasionally go down to Tonbridge parkrun on a Saturday, I gave Croydon as my starting point but I usually walk to Purley and board the train there, travelling via Redhill.

Looking at the fares, an off peak day return, any permitted, is £24.90. An off peak day return via Redhill (route not via London) is £13.70.

Anytime single, any permitted, is £24.50, not via London is £12.

What do you propose they set the fares at? Ending up sticking with paper tickets if that turns out to be cheaper negates the benefits or convenience of using contactless.
 

JonathanH

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The system doesn't need to know which route you have taken if there is only one fare. You are assuming separate fares will be set.
If the current fares for going via the (much) cheaper route aren't retained, it will mean steep fare increases for people.

I don't think the Reading - Guildford - Redhill - Tonbridge - Maidstone - Strood route will be in the next phase, which means that the fares can be set assuming travel via London. Reigate to Sevenoaks, Reading or Box Hill shows that.

Well that’s the thing, they need to find a way to sort the fares where there is clearly more than one valid route.
Given break of journey isn't a thing, it isn't as important for Contactless to know the route because only the displacement matters, not the distance travelled. However, I can't see the railway wanting, for example, East Croydon to Tonbridge via London Bridge, being available at the current fare for going via Redhill.
 

jfollows

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Stansted now delayed until “summer 2026” according to The Standard, https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...ngers-fines-contactless-tickets-b1260974.html
Thousands of passengers heading to or from Stansted Airport will remain at risk of being fined £100 for using the wrong train ticket after the introduction of contactless ticketing was suddenly delayed.


The Government had announced last month that the Essex airport would be among the latest tranche of 50 stations across the South East to accept Contactless bank card payments for “pay-as-you-go” train travel.


The change, which was expected to be made on December 14, came after many travellers found themselves being fined on arrival at the airport – or at Liverpool Street station in London – after failing to realise that TfL Oyster cards are not valid on the Stansted Express.


But in an unexpected announcement on Wednesday, Greater Anglia, which operates the Stansted Express, said the expansion of the Contactless network to 20 stations on its network had been postponed until “summer 2026”.


Passengers at Southend airport will also have to wait for another six months before its station becomes Contactless.


The expansion of Contactless was part of the Government’s efforts to simplify train ticketing.


Greater Anglia said that, during detailed testing, issues were identified that could have affected journeys and the price paid on Greater Anglia services and prevented the technology from working as intended.
Apologies, I see now that this information was posted yesterday. Post 1,910. https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ess-payment-cards.231684/page-64#post-7574495
 
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kacper

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Interesting oddity on the great northern route where an advance single is more expensive than the off peak single. Do they plan on removing advances from these trains, or lowering them to something like £5 to make them competitive again?

Route is Baldock to London St Pancras
Screenshot shows off peak single priced at £7.50, and advance single priced at £8.85
 

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Watershed

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Interesting oddity on the great northern route where an advance single is more expensive than the off peak single. Do they plan on removing advances from these trains, or lowering them to something like £5 to make them competitive again?

Route is Baldock to London St Pancras
Screenshot shows off peak single priced at £7.50, and advance single priced at £8.85
They probably just haven't realised that they need to reprice their Advances post-Project Oval to make them competitive. That said, they do have some cheaper tiers than the CDS so perhaps they just don't feel the need to offer much of a discount at those times.
 

swing

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Interesting oddity on the great northern route where an advance single is more expensive than the off peak single. Do they plan on removing advances from these trains, or lowering them to something like £5 to make them competitive again?

Route is Baldock to London St Pancras
Screenshot shows off peak single priced at £7.50, and advance single priced at £8.85
I assume you've got a railcard that is discounting the off peak and anytime fares? Without a railcard, the off peak single is £11.30
 

MrJeeves

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I assume you've got a railcard that is discounting the off peak and anytime fares? Without a railcard, the off peak single is £11.30
That same Railcard is also discounting the Advance, though!
 

Belperpete

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Tottenham Hale to Stanstead goes from £37.10 for a return to £38 for two off-peak singles, an increase of less than a £1 but for a much simpler system of just being able to get single tickets instead of worrying about buying a return and keeping the second part of the ticket for the return. A fare structure based on single tickets adds a lot more simplicity.
Having to buy two separate single tickets is simpler than buying one return ticket? Really? Keeping the second half of a return ticket means that you don't have to waste time at a TVM on your return journey.

I would agree that a fare structure based on single tickets is simpler with contactless, but not when buying traditional tickets.
 

Haywain

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Keeping the second half of a return ticket means that you don't have to waste time at a TVM on your return journey.
Buying online aldo means you don't have to "waste time at a TVM" and is what most people actually do.
 

reduke

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31 Aug 2017
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I still haven't seen any official communication about these changes, either in station, on train, or via email (which given I have a Thameslink account should not be that difficult). How will ticket offices being explaining why their carnets are no longer available to their bemused (and likely infuriated) customers?

Not a single bit of communication about Oval. Do they really think we all regularly read their website?

I managed to buy 2.9 months worth of carnets before the change, but I am still trying to negotiate with work as to whether I will have to accept a massive cost increase or adjust my hours - this really is not an acceptable position for the "mayor" to put us in, especially given that those he is (insert stronger language for inconveniencing) have no power to vote him out.
 

SynthD

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this really is not an acceptable position for the "mayor" to put us in, especially given that those he is (insert stronger language for inconveniencing) have no power to vote him out.
Project Oval is a Department for Transport project, as in the title of the thread. As for sneaking in higher fares, I wonder how much this helps with rising income during the official fare freeze.
 

CyrusWuff

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I hate quoting Wikipedia, but:


"The contract was awarded to Transport for London (TfL) for £68.1 million"


The Chairman of TfL is whom?
Transport for London's involvement is provision of the charging system, which was the only realistic scenario given Oval is effectively a continuation of the Londoncentric Pay As Yo Go system.

It is, and always has been, a DfT-led project.

The lack of comms is almost certainly due to the 20 Greater Anglia stations being pulled at the last minute. (Though the changes to the traditional fares to/from those stations still take effect tomorrow.)
 

reduke

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DfT are paying TfL to rollout contactless payment. I would love to see the FoI request that details the DfT demanding the withdrawal of carnets as a condition of such.
 

JonathanH

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I would love to see the FoI request that details the DfT demanding the withdrawal of carnets as a condition of such.
I wouldn't expect it to have anything to do with TfL, rather a decision between the train operator and the DfT in the general move towards simplicity (as with the other withdrawals of non-standard fares).
 

OneOfThe48

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I would assume the logic is that Carnet packs undermine Contactless in providing cheaper tickets than are available via Contactless, breaching TfL’s best fare on the day guarantee, and as such needed to be removed
 

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