Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

[Class73Electro]

Other than the points made above, it’s worth noting that you can only be charged the difference between your ticket and the cheapest ticket for immediate travel (i.e. an excess) if you use your ticket* at the wrong time of day.
*Not applicable to Advance tickets used after a booked train, but that’s outside the scope of this discussion.

Is that still the case with the new travel rules? I thought on board Excesses were (being) stopped?

 

[Alex365Dash]

Is that still the case with the new travel rules? I thought on board Excesses were (being) stopped?

The only change to excesses in the last NRCoT (as you describe) is for change of route excesses - entitlement to other excesses are all the same as they were before.

 

[Class73Electro]

The only change to excesses in the last NRCoT (as you describe) is for change of route excesses - entitlement to other excesses are all the same as they were before.

OK fair enough - thanks.

 

[Tester]

Thanks.

What it needs (as per the WMT fares which have had the same problem for 20 years or so now) is a means of implementing "a connection may be used to continue a journey begun at a valid time". Then you could implement the same for paper tickets as exists for contactless, i.e. the only thing that matters (aside from the origin/destination pair) being the touch in time at the origin station.

The reason WMT never implemented that is that to do it with the present restriction code setup would require you to have a very large set of codes - to get it perfect you'd need one per station. The difference between WMT's original scheme and Oval, however, is that the textual restriction still allows the use of trains that planners won't sell (so you can just pick a different train where the ticket is offered, the staff know what the restrictions really are), whereas the Oval restrictions don't.

Bit in bold

That sounds like the triumph of hope over experience!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bit in bold

That sounds like the triumph of hope over experience!

Not really. I've never been incorrectly challenged by WMT staff while using one of those tickets.

 

[Tester]

Not really. I've never been incorrectly challenged by WMT staff while using one of those tickets.

That's good, but I'm thinking more of Paddington

 

[Horizon22]

That's good, but I'm thinking more of Paddington

Which WMT don’t serve, so wouldn’t be relevant.

Paddington / Euston are generally seen to be some of the least informed gateline staff.

 

[Tester]

Which WMT don’t serve, so wouldn’t be relevant.

Paddington / Euston are generally seen to be some of the least informed gateline staff.

Unless I am thoroughly misunderstanding, the point was that the WMT, 'off peak ticket valid for subsequent peak connections', rule was a suggested template for the wider situation - and indeed a sensible one in my opinion.

Paddington is, sadly, highly relevant.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless I am thoroughly misunderstanding, the point was that the WMT, 'off peak ticket valid for subsequent peak connections', rule was a suggested template for the wider situation - and indeed a sensible one in my opinion.

It was a comparison between the two very similar situations, yes.

Paddington is, sadly, highly relevant.

Indeed

 

[CyrusWuff]

Unless I am thoroughly misunderstanding, the point was that the WMT, 'off peak ticket valid for subsequent peak connections', rule was a suggested template for the wider situation - and indeed a sensible one in my opinion.

Paddington is, sadly, highly relevant.

Whilst sensible, it can't (easily) be coded for in a way that journey planners can apply it.

It also wouldn't be recognised by automatic ticket gates, as they generally only look at ticket type to determine what time restrictions to apply. Origin and destination don't come into that part of the equation.

 

[Horizon22]

Unless I am thoroughly misunderstanding, the point was that the WMT, 'off peak ticket valid for subsequent peak connections', rule was a suggested template for the wider situation - and indeed a sensible one in my opinion.

Paddington is, sadly, highly relevant.

Ah I see, crossed wires.

 

[Tester]

Whilst sensible, it can't (easily) be coded for in a way that journey planners can apply it.

It also wouldn't be recognised by automatic ticket gates, as they generally only look at ticket type to determine what time restrictions to apply. Origin and destination don't come into that part of the equation.

I don't doubt that!

All the more reason to fix the, 'railcards can't be used with contactless', issue.

Honestly, you could reasonably think that those in charge don't care

 

[Minstral25]

There are fares that will be cheaper from Reigate than from Redhill. There may be fares that will be cheaper from Betchworth than either Reigate or Dorking, although Betchworth has lost its Sunday Out / Evening Out fares without gaining the single fare pricing.

Dorking and Dorking Deepdene have different fares to London, as the 'Dorking Stations' group has been broken, with no single leg pricing at Dorking Deepdene.

Loads of single fares from Reigate will work out cheaper than those from Redhill, particularly in the evening peak. At the weekend, it may be worth splitting at Redhill (eg super-off-peak day returns) when travelling from Reigate.

I would imagine it comes into line at some point in the future but for now it is a mess.

Can you show the fares that are cheaper please

 

[OneOfThe48]

Can you show the fares that are cheaper please

It’s a big help if you’re staying somewhere overnight.

For instance if you’re travelling (in this example, in the off peak) from Reigate to London today and coming back tomorrow you’ll be paying £27.60 for an Anytime Day Single and a Super Off Peak Day Single.

After the weekend when the new fares are introduced, you’ll be paying £15.20 for two Off Peak Day Singles.

From Redhill, it will remain £27 on weekdays & £27.60 on weekends for ‘regular tickets’ and £16.20 if you use an Oyster/Contactless card.

Or if you’re travelling in in the morning peak and returning in the off peak (whether that’s in the afternoon or after the new evening peak) the single leg pricing will offer you a fare or £22 for Reigate, but for Redhill it will be £28. Oyster card / contactless fare will be the same though at £22.

There are winners and losers with Project Oval, so whether you like it will depend on how much you value the ‘convenience’ of tapping in & tapping out and the times you travel as some will get cheaper and some will get more expensive.

But it is the fares reform the Government has chosen so if people don’t want it they won’t be getting Contactless either, there’s no best of both worlds anymore such as the dual system Redhill has

 

[jon0844]

When contactless extends in a week or so, and indeed when it extends further again in the future, TfL is surely going to need to find a way to clearly inform customers the differences between Oyster and contactless validity.

Already far too many people reach the end of the contactless area with an Oyster and seem surprised that there's a difference between what works and what doesn't. I can see that getting worse.

I know TfL does encourage people to use contactless now and has for some time promoted Oyster less for, say, tourists but there's now a need to really differentiate.

On board messages on trains sometimes talk of Oyster and contactless in the same sentence so further confuses people by making them perhaps think the boundaries are the same.

 

[Class73Electro]

Could Oyster just eventually be phased out?

 

[Watershed]

Could Oyster just eventually be phased out?

At some point, potentially. But TfL will need to consider how else they offer discounts and concessions, since these are currently only offered on Oyster.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At some point, potentially. But TfL will need to consider how else they offer discounts and concessions, since these are currently only offered on Oyster.

It would be difficult not to have some sort of payment option for those who for whatever reason don't have a bank card, though the numbers requiring it are reduced by e.g. allowing younger children free travel. However the long term plan is I believe to move Oyster onto the contactless back-end, which would mean the cards were effectively just simple RFID type cards rather than actual smart cards, and processing was by the same mechanism as contactless processing.

 

[Goldfish62]

Could Oyster just eventually be phased out?

There is absolutely no way that Oyster will be phased out until railcard discounts can be applied to bank cards and those without bank cards have an alternative means of payments. It's simply not going to happen otherwise.

 

[OneOfThe48]

https://media.raildeliverygroup.com...and-with-20-stations-to-follow-in-summer-2026

Greater Anglia's 20 stations - including Stansted Airport - are being deferred until 'Summer 2026' due to unspecified 'issues' with the system for Greater Anglia

This applies only to the ability to use Contactless itself, not the changes to fares on the 7th

From 14 December 2025, customers across the South-East will be able to use pay as you go with contactless at 30 additional National Rail stations. This means that customers travelling on the day will no longer need to queue at ticket machines and instead can simply tap a contactless card or device to pay for their journey.

From summer 2026, customers at additional 20 stations will be able to tap in and tap out. For pay as you go with contactless to work correctly, train company fares must be fully integrated with TfL’s fare system. During rigorous testing, the system identified issues affecting journeys on Greater Anglia services. These issues meant customers would not get the experience they should, and the technology would not have worked as intended. To make sure customers get the best possible experience, additional work is required.

As a result, the introduction of pay as you go with contactless at the 20 Greater Anglia stations, including Stansted and Southend airports, announced last month, will now take place next summer. Customers will receive a full update ahead of the revised launch date to ensure they are informed and prepared for the benefits and convenience this technology will bring.

The expansion of pay as you go with contactless makes it easier to switch seamlessly between different trains, the Tube, London Buses and trams, while ensuring customers pay the best adult fare for their journey on the day and time of their travel. Daily and Monday to Sunday capping when travelling into and within London will also apply to those using pay as you go with contactless.

Jacqueline Starr, Executive Chair and CEO of Rail Deliver Group, said: “Expanding pay as you go technology to 30 stations is an important step towards making train travel easier and more convenient for customers. This move delivers greater simplicity, flexibility and choice for more people across the network.
"The rail industry remains committed to working closely with government to develop a simpler, better-value fares system that not only meets customer expectations but also enhances the overall travel experience.”
Martin Beable, Greater Anglia’s Managing Director, said: “We understand how frustrating it is when improvements like this are delayed, and I am very sorry for the disappointment this will cause some of our customers. It is essential, however, that contactless ticketing works reliably from day one.
“Our teams are working closely with our partners to complete this work as quickly as possible, and we remain committed to introducing contactless ticketing across these additional stations by summer 2026.”

Pay as you go technology has already been rolled out at 53 stations across the south-east, with 5.6 million journeys taken since June 2024, and more stations to follow next year. It is part of a broader effort to modernise ticketing and adapt to evolving customer needs. Alongside contactless pay as you go, train operators are introducing personalised options such as Flexi Season tickets, single-leg pricing, and trialling simpler fare structures to make rail travel more accessible and better value.

The rail industry is also working with Local Transport Authorities to deliver pay as you go across different modes of transport in both Greater Manchester and West Midlands.

More information on the pay as you go with contactless expansion can be found here.

 

[JonathanH]

Greater Anglia's 20 stations - including Stansted Airport - are being deferred until 'Summer 2026' due to unspecified 'issues' with the system for Greater Anglia

Oh dear. Stansted was used in all the initial publicity about the Contactless extension, so is going to be somewhat awkward.

Given this is just adding stations to a fairly mature system, and some comments about integration with the TfL fare system, a six month delay seems somewhat odd. Can it be as simple as someone having set the fares up wrong, and that takes two seasons to resolve?

 

[sigma421]

May also be a bit awkward for the government as the fare changes will be far more visible, rather than just disappearing into a bank statement for most users.

 

[Sleepy]

Oh dear. Stansted was used in all the initial publicity about the Contactless extension, so is going to be somewhat awkward.

Given this is just adding stations to a fairly mature system, and some comments about integration with the TfL fare system, a six month delay seems somewhat odd. Can it be as simple as someone having set the fares up wrong, and that takes two seasons to resolve?

Considering how delayed the rollout already is it's quite farcical imo !!!

 

[Watershed]

So they have increased the fares to Stansted but haven't introduced the convenience/flexibility that was supposed to come with that.

On top of that, they have done a reverse ferret on the validity of contactless. Will they continue issuing unfair Penalty Fares to those who - quite understandably - try and use contactless to Stansted?

 

[jon0844]

Could Oyster just eventually be phased out?

It needs to switch to a system that can scale beyond the 15/16 zones that Oyster had, and move the account management off the card. Basically, become like an ITSO smart card and calculate the same as that, or contactless.

TfL can retain the Oyster branding and market it with season tickets or PAYG as now, with the main difference being that it can extend to not only where contactless goes but, presumably, anywhere ITSO cards can go.

Clearly there's going to be a big cost to implementing this, from backend systems within TfL's estate to the cost of replacing all existing cards by a certain time, the marketing to inform people and so on. It will be quite a big project, but one that needs to be done because Oyster was ahead of its time in many respects, but has not stood the test of time.

If TfL wants more control of lines outside of London, it becomes even more important. Imagine if they did take over the GN Inners for London Overground - they'd surely HAVE to extend Oyster to Stevenage, for example.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It needs to switch to a system that can scale beyond the 15/16 zones that Oyster had, and move the account management off the card. Basically, become like an ITSO smart card and calculate the same as that, or contactless.

TfL can retain the Oyster branding and market it with season tickets or PAYG as now, with the main difference being that it can extend to not only where contactless goes but, presumably, anywhere ITSO cards can go.

Clearly there's going to be a big cost to implementing this, from backend systems within TfL's estate to the cost of replacing all existing cards by a certain time, the marketing to inform people and so on. It will be quite a big project, but one that needs to be done because Oyster was ahead of its time in many respects, but has not stood the test of time.

If TfL wants more control of lines outside of London, it becomes even more important. Imagine if they did take over the GN Inners for London Overground - they'd surely HAVE to extend Oyster to Stevenage, for example.

I've replied to this in a new thread as I think it warrants one: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-might-oyster-be-replaced.295647/

 

[jon0844]

So they have increased the fares to Stansted but haven't introduced the convenience/flexibility that was supposed to come with that.

On top of that, they have done a reverse ferret on the validity of contactless. Will they continue issuing unfair Penalty Fares to those who - quite understandably - try and use contactless to Stansted?

They must surely have an extended grace period as they change the marketing to warn people of the delay. I assume stations on Greater Anglia got posters saying contactless was being extended, as has happened on TLGN stations.

They must now surely sell a ticket and help the customer get a refund on their card that will have a maximum fare charged if they can't tap out come December 14th.

 

[JonathanH]

It needs a bit of journalistic investigation. However, if for example it was merely a matter of having got the caps set up incorrectly, the greater good would still be served by allowing Contactless to be used to Stansted for single journeys in the interim period.

You would think that the system must be in a position where it would charge the correct single fares.

How does it take six months to fix?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It needs a bit of journalistic investigation. However, if for example it was merely a matter of having got the caps set up incorrectly, the greater good would still be served by allowing Contactless to be used to Stansted for single journeys in the interim period.

You would think that the system must be in a position where it would charge the correct single fares.

It would be interesting to see what the issue is. Transport UK have, of course, been burnt once already by the caps on the WCML being set up such that it caused very heavily discounted fares particularly in the peaks - this went on for several months, no doubt losing the railway hundreds of thousands or more, and is discussed a fair way upthread. Though Greater Anglia of course is no longer with Transport UK.

 

[Watershed]

Imagine if they did take over the GN Inners for London Overground - they'd surely HAVE to extend Oyster to Stevenage, for example.

Not really. Elizabeth line services run to Reading but Oyster is only valid as far as West Drayton.