Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

[Kite159]

And in theory a member of staff with the National Rail Priv discount set who also holds another railcard to get discounts on LU services.

I would imagine a sticking point with Woking is SWR having to give training for those guards from other depots on how to use the revenue inspection devices (and spend cash getting more for depots which don't have them).

 

[Table 25]

Dwell times are unchanged, you can see them in the attached file. From https://www.networkrail.co.uk/industry-and-commercial/the-timetable/working-timetable/
The national rail working timetable doesn’t do quarter minutes anyway.
The timetable planning rules, eg https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/operational-rules/Operational Rules/TPR documents/TPR 2026/V1/TPR 2026 V1 LNE.pdf, say

explicitly for Stevenage.

Many thanks for pointing me to this information.

 

[winks]

Yes, up to 3 total.

I’ve heard that adding a network railcard is possible at manned stations. Is this true ?

 

[MrJeeves]

I’ve heard that adding a network railcard is possible at manned stations. Is this true ?

Network Railcards do not offer any Oyster discounts.

Only 16-25, 26-30, Senior, HM Forces, Veterans or Disabled Persons Railcards offer a discount.

National Railcard discounts

National Railcard discounts on Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services

tfl.gov.uk

 

[Kite159]

Network Railcards do not offer any Oyster discounts.

Only 16-25, 26-30, Senior, HM Forces, Veterans or Disabled Persons Railcards offer a discount.

National Railcard discounts

National Railcard discounts on Tube, DLR, London Overground, Elizabeth line and National Rail services

tfl.gov.uk

Plus Gold Cards

 

[MikeWh]

I’ve heard that adding a network railcard is possible at manned stations. Is this true ?

Official answer is no, as stated by previous replies.

Technical answer is that if you get a member of staff who doesn't know what they are doing, you may find that they will set the railcard discount on production of a Network Railcard. However, if your Oyster card is checked by an RPI and they ask to see the railcard then you are likely to get into trouble.

 

[reduke]

Luton

... aligned evening peak restrictions ... 16.00 to 19.00 ... carnet ... no longer available ...

And no morning off peak before 09:30...

I struggle for words that are suitable for a public forum...


Not only is the single off peak fare now 11%+ more expensive, it is no longer valid on either my morning or evening trains...

To catch the same trains (I mean hey, getting to work on time isn't all that important, is it??) now would cost £30.10 instead of £18.80. How on earth is a 62% increase in any way justifiable?????




As an aside, I predict some strong reactions from the crowd the first day the barrier staff try to tell everyone that the 09:17 is no longer off-peak!

 

[Bletchleyite]

What was the discount on the carnet from Luton compared to an anytime day return? I do know the flexi seasons from south WCML stations are/were spectacularly poor value. It might well be that it's possible to beat the per-ticket price on the carnet, possibly substantially, by buying a single in and a Network Railcard discounted single back, enabled by the single fare pricing. (On some routes, though I don't know about this one, this was made uneconomic by singles not being half the returns).

Early starters will also appreciate being able to travel in off peak if they touch in before 0630 (in practice I think there are a couple of minutes leeway on this) which isn't *that* early from as far out as Luton. Free breakfast, effectively?

It's swings and roundabouts. Some pay more, some pay less (some substantially less!) - on the south WCML I'm almost certain I read somewhere (though I forget where) that it has been slightly revenue negative, so certainly no profiteering!

The one I do see as an issue on GTR routes is the weekend super off peak which has caused a big price increase for leisure travellers. I'm not sure how you fix that bar not rolling out Oval, and it's not something that applied to the WCML in the same way because our super off peaks were very heavily restricted so of far less utility.

 

[Minstral25]

Luton

... aligned evening peak restrictions ... 16.00 to 19.00 ... carnet ... no longer available ...

And no morning off peak before 09:30...

I struggle for words that are suitable for a public forum...


Not only is the single off peak fare now 11%+ more expensive, it is no longer valid on either my morning or evening trains...

To catch the same trains (I mean hey, getting to work on time isn't all that important, is it??) now would cost £30.10 instead of £18.80. How on earth is a 62% increase in any way justifiable?????




As an aside, I predict some strong reactions from the crowd the first day the barrier staff try to tell everyone that the 09:17 is no longer off-peak!

Very Similar from Reigate, where first off-peak service to London is now the 10:02 instead of the 08:58, capturing mostly families and less well off into higher fares. Similarly, a lot of well used evening trains are no longer available with off-peak.

 

[Watershed]

Very Similar from Reigate, where first off-peak service to London is now the 10:02 instead of the 08:58, capturing mostly families and less well off into higher fares. Similarly, a lot of well used evening trains are no longer available with off-peak.

Yes and GTR have 'generously' priced the new DDR* at £15.30, which is only a 60p discount from the much less restricted current CDR. In fact it involves similar restrictions to the current Super Off-Peak Day Return which is only £13.10.

The Off-Peak Day Travelcard is changed to restriction code B2 (not before 09:15) which likely means that travel on the 09:28 will count towards the daily off-peak cap with contactless, as per the current CDR.

*The new ticket type code for an Off-Peak Day Return with evening peak restrictions

 

[Class73Electro]

Has this been advertised at all - the only way I have heard anything about these changes has been on here!

Is the Afternoon peak only applicable to the listed Project Oval Stations?

 

[jon81uk]

Has this been advertised at all - the only way I have heard anything about these changes has been on here!

Some train operators are advertising it https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/abo...engers-benefit-contactless-ticketing-extended

 

[Edvid]

Has this been advertised at all - the only way I have heard anything about these changes has been on here!

Links to the 14 December expansion pages (which include information on fare restructuring) are displayed on the front pages of Chiltern Railways and the applicable GTR brands.

Is the Afternoon peak only applicable to the listed Project Oval Stations?

That's what the journey planners are suggesting, though you'll have to wait until Sunday's fare revision to know for sure.

 

[Class73Electro]

Thanks.

have had a look, and they are making a lot of fuss about how simple it is, but very hard to find the Afternoon Peak - you have to go into the FAQ - how many regular travellers are going to be delving through the FAQs to find that!?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks.

have had a look, and they are making a lot of fuss about how simple it is, but very hard to find the Afternoon Peak - you have to go into the FAQ - how many regular travellers are going to be delving through the FAQs to find that!?

It's standard across the whole TfL and Oval area, so people will get used to it and just know it, as Londoners likely do. Or they'll just tap in and not worry about what it costs, which is part of the intention of contactless tap in tap out systems.

 

[778]

Thanks.

have had a look, and they are making a lot of fuss about how simple it is, but very hard to find the Afternoon Peak - you have to go into the FAQ - how many regular travellers are going to be delving through the FAQs to find that!?

Are they trying to catch people out deliberately so that they can get extra revenue from penalty fares?

 

[jon81uk]

Thanks.

have had a look, and they are making a lot of fuss about how simple it is, but very hard to find the Afternoon Peak - you have to go into the FAQ - how many regular travellers are going to be delving through the FAQs to find that!?

It's standard across the whole TfL and Oval area, so people will get used to it and just know it, as Londoners likely do. Or they'll just tap in and not worry about what it costs, which is part of the intention of contactless tap in tap out systems.

Also if you would normally buy an anytime day return you won't notice the evening peak as the price would be roughly the same (mine is going up by 10p) if you commute to arrive into London for 9am and leave about 5pm anyway. Only if you come home after 7pm will you notice that the contactless fare (of one peak single and one off peak single) is now cheaper than your usual anytime day return.

 

[JonathanH]

Are they trying to catch people out deliberately so that they can get extra revenue from penalty fares?

I don’t think it is intended to be cynical like that. It is just how the fare structure works. The difference between off-peak and peak fares becomes more significant the further out the travel is from London. The intention is to make people think in terms of each travel leg, but continued availability of return tickets slightly clouds the issue.

 

[Watershed]

It's standard across the whole TfL and Oval area, so people will get used to it and just know it, as Londoners likely do. Or they'll just tap in and not worry about what it costs, which is part of the intention of contactless tap in tap out systems.

Paper fares remain unchanged (with many CDRs valid earlier than 09:30 and/or in the evening peak) for stations that PAYG expanded to before Project Oval.

As it stands, it goes like this:

• Redhill - no evening peak restriction
• Reigate - evening peak restriction
• Betchworth - no evening peak restriction
• Dorking - evening peak restriction

It's utterly ridiculous.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Paper fares remain unchanged (with many CDRs valid earlier than 09:30 and/or in the evening peak) for stations that PAYG expanded to before Project Oval.

As it stands, it goes like this:

• Redhill - no evening peak restriction
• Reigate - evening peak restriction
• Betchworth - no evening peak restriction
• Dorking - evening peak restriction

It's utterly ridiculous.

Ah, yes, I forgot about that smallish number of stations that joined contactless early but which aren't within the TfL area. Yes, that is utterly ridiculous, and will surely at some point be brought in line with the single fare pricing and evening restrictions of the others.

 

[JonathanH]

As it stands, it goes like this:

• Redhill - no evening peak restriction
• Reigate - evening peak restriction
• Betchworth - no evening peak restriction
• Dorking - evening peak restriction

It's utterly ridiculous.

There are fares that will be cheaper from Reigate than from Redhill. There may be fares that will be cheaper from Betchworth than either Reigate or Dorking, although Betchworth has lost its Sunday Out / Evening Out fares without gaining the single fare pricing.

Dorking and Dorking Deepdene have different fares to London, as the 'Dorking Stations' group has been broken, with no single leg pricing at Dorking Deepdene.

Loads of single fares from Reigate will work out cheaper than those from Redhill, particularly in the evening peak. At the weekend, it may be worth splitting at Redhill (eg super-off-peak day returns) when travelling from Reigate.

I would imagine it comes into line at some point in the future but for now it is a mess.

 

[Kite159]

There are fares that will be cheaper from Reigate than from Redhill. There may be fares that will be cheaper from Betchworth than either Reigate or Dorking, although Betchworth has lost its Sunday Out / Evening Out fares without gaining the single fare pricing.

Dorking and Dorking Deepdene have different fares to London, as the 'Dorking Stations' group has been broken, with no single leg pricing at Dorking Deepdene.

Loads of single fares from Reigate will work out cheaper than those from Redhill, particularly in the evening peak. At the weekend, it may be worth splitting at Redhill (eg super-off-peak day returns) when travelling from Reigate.

I would imagine it comes into line at some point in the future but for now it is a mess.

How long before the single leg pricing of the Dorking to London changes from "Any Permitted" to something like "Via Leatherhead" to prevent people buying a London - Dorking single ticket to travel to tiny little Betchworth?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How long before the single leg pricing of the Dorking to London changes from "Any Permitted" to something like "Via Leatherhead" to prevent people buying a London - Dorking single ticket to travel to tiny little Betchworth?

Probably never. There are anomalies on the WCML that make it cheaper to buy a longer ticket for a shorter journey and nothing has been done about those. Not only that, but the longer ticket is accepted by the gateline at the shorter station!

I think there's a good chance it's just accepted that there will be these anomalies until rollout is complete and the pre-Oval stations are brought into line at some point.

 

[778]

I don’t think it is intended to be cynical like that. It is just how the fare structure works. The difference between off-peak and peak fares becomes more significant the further out the travel is from London. The intention is to make people think in terms of each travel leg, but continued availability of return tickets slightly clouds the issue.

I thought that return tickets were going to be scrapped completely?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought that return tickets were going to be scrapped completely?

No, Oval (unlike LNER) retains day returns at twice the relevant single. There are no period returns, you buy two singles in that case.

 

[MasterPhillips]

Can we stop with this idea that Oval is bringing stations in line with the rest of London and South East. An off peak return from say, Maidenhead to London is valid throughout the evening peak. Why should those of us who live on the now oval area of SWR, outside of London, have to pay extra?

 

[Watershed]

Can we stop with this idea that Oval is bringing stations in line with the rest of London and South East. An off peak return from say, Maidenhead to London is valid throughout the evening peak.

It's not - it's barred on most GWR departures out of Paddington (see nre.co.uk/O9). You can use the Elizabeth line of course but it's quite a bit slower.

Why should those of us who live on the now oval area of SWR, outside of London, have to pay extra?

I quite agree. Fare increases just for the sake of 'simplification'/rolling out PAYG are unjustifiable. Sadly I don't see any realistic prospect of it happening any other way as we are allergic to properly subsidising public transport in this country.

 

[davews]

I noticed today when checking fares from Martins Heron to Stansted on December 23rd that it now only offers single (period) tickets. So people outside the Oval area (for now) are also affected by these arrangements and there has been absolutely no notification.

 

[MasterPhillips]

It's not - it's barred on most GWR departures out of Paddington (see nre.co.uk/O9). You can use the Elizabeth line of course but it's quite a bit slower.

Apologies, BRfares website says off peak tickets are valid after 0930 and does not mention any evening restrictions. Presumably then passengers from London to Iver, Langley etc have no peak evening peak restrictions, as they are Elizabeth Line only, so the point still stands.

 

[Haywain]

It's not - it's barred on most GWR departures out of Paddington (see nre.co.uk/O9). You can use the Elizabeth line of course but it's quite a bit slower.

Slow trains are a better option than others have.