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DLR B23 Stock (CAF Inneo)
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RailUK Forums
You think the old trains will suddenly stop working at a given date ?
Why don’t you go and give them a hand if you know best ?
They're no longer viable to run (without overhaul) after a given mileage, not date, hence the thinning out of services / short forming to preserve stock levels.
It's a shame they didn't think to reduce unit usage and mileage all through lockdown, when maximum length 3-car trains were run throughout, with virtually no passengers (and sometimes genuinely none) in them. Yes, it is doubtless mileage-driven in some ISO document that up to a given odometer reading they can run all day, and once that moment is reached the diktat says they can't be used at all.
Meanwhile the remaining trains carry on, seemingly as reliable as ever, which I have always found impressive. The only sign of any deterioration is external corrosion appearing beneath the carside windows. Given that for almost all their 35 years there was nothing apparent there at all, but in the last couple of years, since the first new train delivery, there has been a rash of it, it rather points to just having given up on routine maintenance.
Has anyone thought to ask if the longer-serving engineers at Alstom, once Bombardier, who put all the current trains, and their braking systems, together, can come over and tell the DLR and CAF teams how to do it?
simple simon
Member
Maybe that has been done, but I question whether the people at Alstom would wish to become involved. After all, it does not directly involve their trains - and their involvement might void a warrenty. Also, maybe CAF would not like it in case it results in one of their commercial rivals discovering a commercial secret.
Perhaps help has been requested from the people who created the train control system ... pure conjecture ... if their assistance was requested, what would they say? Its an old system that is no longer supported? All our engineers who developed that train control product have left the company? New trains are not compatible with an old signalling system .. let us sell to you the latest all-signing, all-dancing system?
London is one of the first cities to embrace automated train control, and getting a fleet of new trains to 'play nice & safe' seems to be a bigger challenge than ever expected.
Any-one read about (or remember) the reliability problems back in the early 1990s?
Its a mess....
No, but after certain milage they won't be allowed to run without a heavy overhaul. And nobody is going to approv and pay for that in case of trains which are about to be scrapped.
Because I'm neither engineer nor a programmer. Also, nobody pays me to solve their mess.I assume that between the TfL and CAF there should be enough highly paid talent to solve the problem. They might need to kick some backsides for motivation though.
I wonder what the plan is if more trains have to be withdrawn before the B23s are ready. Reducing Lewisham services to 2 cars sounds like a nightmare due to overcrowding, so that probably won’t happen.
A couple of options I thought of:
1. Woolwich-Stratford Intl would be cut back to Canning Town, and no trains run on the Stratford international line. The Jubilee line runs alongside it so it wouldn’t be the end of the world, but not convenient for those who dont use CT, WH and Stratford.
2. Stratford - Canary Wharf could have frequency reductions from 12tph to 8tph
Lets just hope the issues get resolved soon and B23s can come into service before more trains have to be withdrawn.
A couple of options I thought of:
1. Woolwich-Stratford Intl would be cut back to Canning Town, and no trains run on the Stratford international line. The Jubilee line runs alongside it so it wouldn’t be the end of the world, but not convenient for those who dont use CT, WH and Stratford.
2. Stratford - Canary Wharf could have frequency reductions from 12tph to 8tph
Lets just hope the issues get resolved soon and B23s can come into service before more trains have to be withdrawn.
Bombardier, the traditional rolling stock supplier, no longer build trains. Alstom bought that part of the business, and presumably gave a higher price than CAF.
Farigiraf
Member
I presume CAF was largely chosen as the winning bidder due to offering a cheaper option to Stadler/Siemens or Alstom. Now we're stuck with trains of lower quality than what the other bidders could've built, with this fiasco ending up costing potentially more than it would've if they had picked a more expensive but higher quality bid, which would've had less problems on introduction. CAF have really earned their nickname (if you know, you know.)
Do we know this or is this speculation?
Is there empirical evidence that other manufacturers are better at integrating train software with legacy ATO systems?
Tendering evaluation is not solely based on up front cost, to assume this is just wrong. They look at what represents best value for money (BVM) - which does include price but also considers total cost of ownership, and measures such as support costs, spare parts costs, energy efficiency, interoperability, upgradability, reliability. Add as well, passenger performance metrics like comfort, noise, temperature control, and of course accessibility. They can also take into account the financial health, history and reputation of the bidder and their outcomes and performance on other similar projects.
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Yup… since the Class 701 débâcle, everyone suddenly forgot most train introductions have not really been that smooth…
Just to slightly correct you, it's "ISN'T the Newcastle Metro introduction also the victim ...". Still ongoing sadly but I haven't worked out which is worse between the Metro and the DLR. So far the Metro seems to be "winning" with adhesion, air-con, seating, staff shortage issues etc but with the upcoming (temporary) capacity reductions on the Bank to Lewisham service and the potential of some B90/92 stock needing to be taken out of service before any more B23 stock entering service then the race ain't over yet.
And as for Ansaldo Breda… we’re just lucky nobody ever dipped their toes down that route.
Guess who was running the italian Hitachi factory before the Japanese company bought out AnsaldoBreda ?
Indeed. I’ve previously highlighted some of the lessor quality construction on the GWR IETs…. Noticeable around the door frames for example.
Cool, nothing to see here then. Years of delays should be accepted, or even applauded.
Part of the problem with this country is culture of the constant excuse. Nobody is ever guilty of incompetence, there are are always "good reasons" helpfuly provided by apologists.
Does any manager ever pays for incompetence? For example with his/her job?
In this case I wonder who is paying, the TfL or CAF. Or simply nobody?
Yes, quite a few issues on IETs are basically AnsaldoBreda-signed if you will…
Gag Halfrunt
Member
- Joined
- 23 Jul 2019
- Messages
- 993
Only the Class 802s were assembled in Italy, and the first Class 800s were built before Hitachi acquired AnsaldoBreda. The only problems that could be "AnsaldoBreda-signed" are build quality issues on the Class 802s, and unfamiliarity with the design could be one of the reasons for those issues.
Back on topic the situation has now reached the Evening Standard here:
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...S&cvid=6930a7bc6ffb409fb10e9a69927551fe&ei=13
There are a few curiosities in that article.
- TfL Commissioner Andy Lord saying he "wanted to keep the reason for the failure secret". How strange. This is public money.
- It's described as "a very unique set of circumstances". Yet is used to withdraw the trains, presumably because of the risk of happening again.
- The trains are described as "18 months late". Actually it's 3 years now since the train in question arrived.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...S&cvid=6930a7bc6ffb409fb10e9a69927551fe&ei=13
There are a few curiosities in that article.
- TfL Commissioner Andy Lord saying he "wanted to keep the reason for the failure secret". How strange. This is public money.
- It's described as "a very unique set of circumstances". Yet is used to withdraw the trains, presumably because of the risk of happening again.
- The trains are described as "18 months late". Actually it's 3 years now since the train in question arrived.
Snow1964
Established Member
The TfL Board papers for Programmes and Investment committee meeting next week are now published.
The new DLR trains are in section 8.2
https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/s25521/pic-20251211-item05a-part1-investment-programme-report.pdf
There is something not right, looks like details are being deliberately covered up or hidden.
eg 8.2.2 says figures not being updated due to commercial sensitivity
8.2.3 refers to completion date has moved later (no revised date given)
8.2.5 says review a range of solutions (in response to temporary withdrawal apparently due to braking performance), doesn't sound like one solution for one problem
Some of the answers may be in the non-public part 2 papers.
But in my experience if all is going well, the Board praises itself with lots of wording about well managed and success etc, not a list of cryptically and carefully worded events. So my hunch is not going well, and more problems than they want to talk about
Thank you. I'm used to reading EFC (Estimated Final Costs) reporting, but hope the Committee are all likewise as that looks a real gloss-over. Nowhere is the loss of revenue from all the additional weekend closures put into the equation. And they continue to milk the bankruptcy of contractor Buckingham Group on the depot sidings extension, massaging that, the additional scope of extra trains, and the rolling stock problems all into one. Did nobody think to take out a completion bond on that contract ...?
I suppose the next report will mix in all the new Thamesmead extension issues as well to further obfuscate things.
Snow1964
Established Member
Just spotted in section 8.2.1 of TfL Board Committee Report that the new DLR trains estimated completion date on the graph has slipped 15 months to Q3 2027/28. (which is Oct-Dec 2027). Graph shows originally was Jan-March 2026, so is 21 months late comp to initial plan.
There is apparently info withheld due to commercial sensitivity which rather suggests things are not ticking along as per previously announced timelines and costs.
There is apparently info withheld due to commercial sensitivity which rather suggests things are not ticking along as per previously announced timelines and costs.
Mattplans
Member
This is awful news.
I imagine the original project end date, which I thought was late 2025, 2 years after the late 2023 initial delivery, was to allow CAF to run a steady assembly line production. But presumably all the trains have now been built, and tested in Spain; there have been no reported issues from the manufacturing end, so once whatever is holding things up in London is overcome they can all be delivered in short order. Doubtless all the extra time has allowed all operating and technical staff to be fully trained. Quite why we now have to wait until 2028 for replacement to be completed needs an explanation of its own.
Presumably the TfL Board have also not heard of Captain Deltic's 'Informed Sources Laws', particularly Law 3: "Always distrust schedules based on seasons (quarters)". If you've forgotten them, here they all are:
www.londonreconnections.com
Presumably the TfL Board have also not heard of Captain Deltic's 'Informed Sources Laws', particularly Law 3: "Always distrust schedules based on seasons (quarters)". If you've forgotten them, here they all are:
Reconnections' Miscellany: Transport Laws - July 2021
Roger Ford’s Informed Sources Laws 1. First Law - Never assume railways are rational organisations. 2. Second Law = You can't have too many spanners. 3. Third Law = Always distrust schedules based on the seasons. 4. Fourth Law - When in doubt – build a demonstrator. 5. Fifth Law - Any...
www.londonreconnections.com
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What a mess...