Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

[bspahh]

I do believe it does. Both Basel and Zurich would be better of course, but if it can be only one, it has to be Basel. For everyone traveling from Switzerland, including people from Zurich, going to Basel to change there is fine. They happily do that to go to France and Germany, and just as happily take one or more trains to go to Zurich Airport. Changing trains comes as naturally to them as buying a coffee at the station.

Even if the a train nominally goes from London to Zurich, if it is late when it gets to Basel, then it will finish there and you will have to change in any case, so the delays don't get propagated around the Swiss network.

 

[Austriantrain]

Even if the a train nominally goes from London to Zurich, if it is late when it gets to Basel, then it will finish there and you will have to change in any case, so the delays don't get propagated around the Swiss network.

Probably not in this case, because it would not be part of the Takt. But the path it will get will likely be even slower than its normal one, so a long turnaround would be useful.

However, I believe that the punctuality of services coming into Basel from the LGV is quite good. The problem is Germany, not France.

 

[signed]

However, I believe that the punctuality of services coming into Basel from the LGV is quite good. The problem is Germany, not France.

Yes, it's bordering on very good

On the trains originating from Paris:

https://www.zugfinder.net/en/train-TGV_9203: 90% arrive less than 5min late (over 30 days)
https://www.zugfinder.net/en/train-TGV_9213: same
https://www.zugfinder.net/en/train-TGV_9219: 71%
https://www.zugfinder.net/en/train-TGV_9223: 70% (due to a quite bad stretch, I don't have a current Zugfinder Pro sub to see exactly where the delays started, if it's in FR or CH)

And all of those trains have a sigma delay (standard distribution) of 10min or under

 

[ShadowKnight]

The 400m rule was dropped some time ago as Deutsche Bahn were also planning to run 200m units. The greater unknown is whether a double deck unit is permitted due to the greater amount of time it would take to evacuate them.

There are double deck car shuttle trains, I can't see from that why double deck passenger trains won't be allowed

 

[Trainbike46]

There are double deck car shuttle trains, I can't see from that why double deck passenger trains won't be allowed

From Jon Worth's report, the issue is around the position of the first and last door. basically, if the front passenger accessible door or the front set is next to an evacuation door in the tunnel, there is no door on the second set that is close enough to the next one. This is very specifically an issue with the TGV M as it runs in France currently.

I assume a solution has been found (because if it hasn't, why did Eurostar order these? Telling very obvious lies to the regulator is never going to end well)

 

[signed]

because if it hasn't, why did Eurostar order these? Telling very obvious lies to the regulator is never going to end well.

Will we ever see them on London runs? I am doubtful of that, yes there is e300 to retire, but most of the opinion seem to think that they will be Red only

 

[TheWierdOne]

Will we ever see them on London runs? I am doubtful of that, yes there is e300 to retire, but most of the opinion seem to think that they will be Red only

Eurostar were claiming they would be maintained in TMI. The Virgin decision notwithstanding thats an awful lot of deadheading if they don’t run in passenger service. They will need to use them to run to London anyway just to maintain current service as the e300s retire

 

[Sorcerer]

Will we ever see them on London runs? I am doubtful of that, yes there is e300 to retire, but most of the opinion seem to think that they will be Red only

Eurostar have insisted that they will run on London services, but that might actually be pending some Channel Tunnel safety reviews? It's hard to say right now but they will definitely be replacing the old PBA sets of the Eurostar Red services, though 30 trains to replace just 9 is a bit overkill, so I think they are very much banking on being able to get them through the tunnel sooner or later.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

From Jon Worth's report, the issue is around the position of the first and last door. basically, if the front passenger accessible door or the front set is next to an evacuation door in the tunnel, there is no door on the second set that is close enough to the next one. This is very specifically an issue with the TGV M as it runs in France currently.

The other issue is that in a "controlled stop" it may be necessary to evacuate all the passengers through a single door, which is only possible on a 400 metre long unit.

A controlled stop is where the train with the passengers on board is not in an immediately critical situation, and the driver can bring the train to a standstill at a designated place in the tunnel as required. However this includes the case of a power cut, or smoke ingress in the running tunnel from a fire on board another train.

With current rolling stock used through the Channel Tunnel the procedure in the case of a controlled stop means aligning the front passenger door with a cross-passage between the running tunnel and the service tunnel, to allow evacuation through that door. Evacuation can be through another door or doors onto the walkway in the running tunnel as well if the safety situation allows, even if those doors are not near a cross passage, but the principle is clear: a one door evacuation is permissible and in some cases necessary or desirable.

The Avelia Horizon trains Eurostar has ordered from Alstom are not compliant with Channel Tunnel evacuation rules - what can be done about it?

*** This post is an adapted version of one part of my #CrossChannelRail Project Final Report *** Let's get one thing out of the way first: the problems here are nothing to do with the Avelia Horizon trains being double deck. The loading gauge in the Channel Tunnel and HS1 is

jonworth.eu

 

[Trainbike46]

The other issue is that in a "controlled stop" it may be necessary to evacuate all the passengers through a single door, which is only possible on a 400 metre long unit.

The Avelia Horizon trains Eurostar has ordered from Alstom are not compliant with Channel Tunnel evacuation rules - what can be done about it?

*** This post is an adapted version of one part of my #CrossChannelRail Project Final Report *** Let's get one thing out of the way first: the problems here are nothing to do with the Avelia Horizon trains being double deck. The loading gauge in the Channel Tunnel and HS1 is

jonworth.eu

In a controlled stop situation, it is necessary to get a door on each set close to a cross-passage. As these are 375m apart, this is possible with two 200m sets, provided the doors are in the right positions. AIUI, Units aren't required to be 400m anymore, and this is why every potential new entrant proposed ~200m sets.

 

[BG2024]

Notwithstanding all the interest in competing services, something really needs to be done to address capacity at Paris Gare du Nord!

Today (Friday 7 November), most departures from Paris have been delayed, due to its seeming inability to cope with the number of people passing through.

I arrived at Gare Du Nord at 11:50, for the 13:08 departure. Eurostar advised an arrival 75 minutes prior to departure. All good so far.

However, when I arrived, they hadn’t actually opened passport control/security for that departure. Consequently, the queues were stretched around the concourse.

From the time they opened up (about 5 mins after my arrival), it took over an hour to pass through customs & security. That’s without any of the extra checks that are due to be introduced.

My train has now been delayed by 15 minutes, purely because they physically can’t get everyone through the necessary processes in the allotted time. That seems to have happened repeatedly today.

(Edit: Departed GDN 25 minutes late).

Unless some serious capacity is added to the key hubs, any competition is likely to exacerbate things to a point where it’ll drive people away.

I’d forgotten just how unpleasant the Gare du Nord/Eurostar interface experience was-and I’m likely to fly next time.

Similar story yesterday. Only a minor delay for my train, but some of the steps taken to speed things up were a little interesting. They put the ticket barriers in "evacuation" mode so people boarded without a ticket check, and security seemed to be just waving people through even when the metal detectors went off.

 

[martin butler]

One thing that astounds me is this, why was HS2 not designed as an offshoot from Hs1, and started as a continuation from HS1, that would have enabled direct services between European capitals, and UK ideally it should have ran to either Glasgow, or Aberdeen an interchange at Stratford could have been available for UK passengers to board Scottish bound services

 

[JamesT]

One thing that astounds me is this, why was HS2 not designed as an offshoot from Hs1, and started as a continuation from HS1, that would have enabled direct services between European capitals, and UK ideally it should have ran to either Glasgow, or Aberdeen an interchange at Stratford could have been available for UK passengers to board Scottish bound services

There have been numerous threads on the difficulties with running European services to UK destinations other than London.
Designing HS2 around that would have been the tail wagging the dog instead of the actual brief to relieve our most congested intercity lines.

 

[TheWierdOne]

There have been numerous threads on the difficulties with running European services to UK destinations other than London.
Designing HS2 around that would have been the tail wagging the dog instead of the actual brief to relieve our most congested intercity lines.

For all we on the forum like to go on about the lack of a link between the two, it’s not unprecedented even for nations we regard as “good” at high speed rail. France’s network is a series of largely independent lines radiating from Paris that have very few services that use more than one LGV. Japan does not run Shinkansen services through Tokyo and there isn’t even a track connection despite the lines being right next to each other with no platforms in between , and all passengers must change there. This is not to say I don’t think that HS1 and HS2 should’ve been linked, but if you want to encourage levelling up of the regions then HS3/NPR is your bet. The international market, lucrative as it is, isn’t exactly key to the economy or a big vote winner.

Edit: no through Shinkansen track at Tokyo

 

[Tester]

For all we on the forum like to go on about the lack of a link between the two, it’s not unprecedented even for nations we regard as “good” at high speed rail. France’s network is a series of largely independent lines radiating from Paris that have very few services that use more than one LGV. Japan, despite there being physical track to do so, does not run Shinkansen services through Tokyo, and all passengers must change there. This is not to say I don’t think that HS1 and HS2 should’ve been linked, but if you want to encourage levelling up of the regions then HS3/NPR is your bet. The international market, lucrative as it is, isn’t exactly key to the economy or a big vote winner.

Not to detract from your perfectly valid point, but in Tokyo there is an important infrastructure constraint with the potential to affect through services:

West of Tokyo the electrification system is 25kV ac 60Hz
North of Tokyo the electrification system is 25kV ac 50Hz

 

[TheWierdOne]

Not to detract from your perfectly valid point, but in Tokyo there is an important infrastructure constraint with the potential to affect through services:

West of Tokyo the electrification system is 25kV ac 60Hz
North of Tokyo the electrification system is 25kV ac 50Hz

You’ve raised an excellent point, which has made me realise I misread openrailwaymap, there is in fact no physical connection between the Shinkansen lines heading north and south from Tokyo.

 

[zwk500]

There's been much discussion of 200m combinations, but I thought that any Channel Tunnel train had to be a continuous 400m set for evacuation reasons. Seems both Virgin and Gemini are going for 200m EMUs, and whilst of course the 373 is a TGV-based 400m single set, the latest TGV M DD are 200m out of the box and I'm not sure what it would take to get them as a single 400m set

There are double deck car shuttle trains, I can't see from that why double deck passenger trains won't be allowed

The requirement was changed some time ago to demonstrating that an evacuation to the service tunnel can be completed within a minimum time. The requirements are available online if you google 'Channel Tunnel Network Statement' and look through the Channel Tunnel Intergovermental Commission documentation on the IGC website.

 

[Tester]

You’ve raised an excellent point, which has made me realise I misread openrailwaymap, there is in fact no physical connection between the Shinkansen lines heading north and south from Tokyo.

They are utterly separate operations, with no reason for a connection.

From the passenger perspective, interchange between them is very easy.

 

[TheWierdOne]

They are utterly separate operations, with no reason for a connection.

From the passenger perspective, interchange between them is very easy.

Japan is such a vastly different culture that I wouldn’t care to speculate about their fondness or lack thereof for through services, but separate operators is not a barrier in Japan. The Nozomi and Sunrise Izumi/Seto both run through multiple operators, Sunrise Seto being a collaboration between four different operators.

 

[Austriantrain]

France’s network is a series of largely independent lines radiating from Paris that have very few services that use more than one LGV.

While the second half of your sentence is true - SNCF being SNCF - the network is designed differently in that there is a Paris avoiding line (and it reaching TGV Atlantique at some point is still not entirely out of the question. But you know that. I would say the major two differences to the UK are: There is no single domestic destination south of London important enough to build a connecting line there; and since only one HS line north of London was ever planned, capacity will always be at a premium. All French LGV, even LGV SE, have enough capacity to accomodate TGV Interconnections.

 

[Krokodil]

One thing that astounds me is this, why was HS2 not designed as an offshoot from Hs1, and started as a continuation from HS1, that would have enabled direct services between European capitals, and UK ideally it should have ran to either Glasgow, or Aberdeen an interchange at Stratford could have been available for UK passengers to board Scottish bound services

Because HS2 was conceived as a relief line for the busiest mixed-use line in Europe.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Back on topic: is there any word from Trenitalia? Several commentators (beyond this forum) seemed to be in the know that they would be making an announcement concerning Chunnel services around this time? Perhaps running without the need for use of TMI.

 

[MatthewHutton]

One thing that astounds me is this, why was HS2 not designed as an offshoot from Hs1, and started as a continuation from HS1, that would have enabled direct services between European capitals, and UK ideally it should have ran to either Glasgow, or Aberdeen an interchange at Stratford could have been available for UK passengers to board Scottish bound services

Because 3 trains a day from Manchester to Paris isn’t that useful compared to the status quo. Especially with security.

 

[BogiePicker]

Not to detract from your perfectly valid point, but in Tokyo there is an important infrastructure constraint with the potential to affect through services:

West of Tokyo the electrification system is 25kV ac 60Hz
North of Tokyo the electrification system is 25kV ac 50Hz

Sorry for straying OT, but I believe that in the E7 they already have stock that can operate at both 50Hz and 60Hz. Funnily enough its route is what will become the 'long way round' between Tokyo and Osaka, the Hokuriku Shinkansen.

You’ve raised an excellent point, which has made me realise I misread openrailwaymap, there is in fact no physical connection between the Shinkansen lines heading north and south from Tokyo.

I think the track layout could in theory allow for through-operations to be conducted; once the Maglevs introduce more potential slack, it might be an interesting whatif, but the existing Tokaidos run like metros anyway.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

IIRC JR Central have said that once the Chuo Shinkansen (maglev) fully opens end-to-end services on the Tokaido Shinkansen will cease and the line will be split into several regional routes. That suggests that they will have zero interest in through services to the east.

 

[TheWierdOne]

IIRC JR Central have said that once the Chuo Shinkansen (maglev) fully opens end-to-end services on the Tokaido Shinkansen will cease and the line will be split into several regional routes. That suggests that they will have zero interest in through services to the east.

I realise I’m not a Japanese railway executive, but for anyone who lives on the Tokaido away from Nagoya, Osaka or Tokyo thats going to be extremely annoying. They’ll lose some of their direct services due to a line that goes nowhere near most of the Tokaido route

 

[Tester]

Sorry for straying OT, but I believe that in the E7 they already have stock that can operate at both 50Hz and 60Hz. Funnily enough its route is what will become the 'long way round' between Tokyo and Osaka, the Hokuriku Shinkansen.

Yes that is true (because it has to be!) but no reason for it to be general.

I think the lack of operational justification for Tokyo through running is uncontroversial though.

 

[BogiePicker]

Yes that is true (because it has to be!) but no reason for it to be general.

I think the lack of operational justification for Tokyo through running is uncontroversial though.

If there were to be any through-running, it should at least be to Shinagawa, to take people directly to the Maglev.

 

[zwk500]

Could we possibly get back to services between the UK and Continental Europe?

 

[TheWierdOne]

Could we possibly get back to services between the UK and Continental Europe?

It may be a while before any new updates. Trenitalia were supposed to have announced something by now but that’s all gone quiet, Virgin might not have much of anything to announce for a couple of years, I assume they’re now working on the background logistics of actually setting up the company and the beginnings of hiring staff.