Station Name Rationalisation in the South Wales Area

[Daniel Boone]

I'd like to hear people's thoughts on the expulsion of certain anglicised station names which do not differ immensely from the original Welsh spelling or pronunciation.

The stations names I believe merit discussion are:

Rhymni - Rhymney
Bargod - Bargoed
Caerffili - Caerphilly
Llanisien - Llanishen
Merthyr Tudful - Merthyr Tydfil
Radur - Radyr
Treorci - Treorchy

I myself can see some counter points, perhaps around tourism? However, I cannot think of any other practical issues that pro-welsh rationalisation could have. There is precedent for a change like this, Llandaf is the only example to my knowledge. I'd be happy to hear some insights on this even if you're not from the area.

 

[themiller]

Hasn’t Portmadoc been changed to Porthmadog?

 

[zwk500]

I myself can see some counter points, perhaps around tourism? However, I cannot think of any other practical issues that pro-welsh rationalisation could have. There is precedent for a change like this, Llandaf is the only example to my knowledge. I'd be happy to hear some insights on this even if you're not from the area.

Conway and Conwy?

For me, it only makes sense to standardise on the Welsh spelling if the town/area is also doing the same thing. This is very possible - plenty of Welsh settlements have simply never had an English version - Llandudno, Llanelli, Aberystwyth, etc,. Changing the name of the town though is an issue for local residents and their representatives to lead on, rather than the railway.

 

[Daniel Boone]

Conway and Conwy?

For me, it only makes sense to standardise on the Welsh spelling if the town/area is also doing the same thing. This is very possible - plenty of Welsh settlements have simply never had an English version - Llandudno, Llanelli, Aberystwyth, etc,. Changing the name of the town though is an issue for local residents and their representatives to lead on, rather than the railway.

We're absolutely on the same wavelength here.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2025 ==

Conway and Conwy?

Hasn’t Portmadoc been changed to Porthmadog?

Both are fantastic examples of this being sensible standardization.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Llanelli

The town (and presumably the station) was Llanelly until 1966 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llanelli#Toponymy refers)

 

[The exile]

Conway and Conwy?

For me, it only makes sense to standardise on the Welsh spelling if the town/area is also doing the same thing. This is very possible - plenty of Welsh settlements have simply never had an English version - Llandudno, Llanelli, Aberystwyth, etc,. Changing the name of the town though is an issue for local residents and their representatives to lead on, rather than the railway.

Agree 100%. If the town/area unequivocally chooses the Welsh version then the railway should follow suit (as it also did with Dolgellau). By all means drop the English entirely if / once there is little danger of confusion (bearing in mind that the English version also aids non-English m-speaking Welsh people- of whom there are plenty.)

 

[Daniel Boone]

Just to add something. I mentioned Llandaf Station as an example because it seems the station name was changed independently of the area, which remains Llandaff. If anyone has any idea why that's the case I would love to know. The most I know is it was changed to it's current form in the 80s.

 

[The exile]

Just to add something. I mentioned Llandaf Station as an example because it seems the station name was changed independently of the area, which remains Llandaff. If anyone has any idea why that's the case I would love to know. The most I know is it was changed to it's current form in the 80s.

They probably needed the “f”s for the various Platfform signs!

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Fflint, Flint, So bad they named it twice!

By and large, in the examples listed, I'd favour dropping the English spellings unless there are huge local objections. It can be an emotive issue though, especially when exploited by unscrupulous politicians.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2025 ==

Just to add something. I mentioned Llandaf Station as an example because it seems the station name was changed independently of the area, which remains Llandaff. If anyone has any idea why that's the case I would love to know. The most I know is it was changed to it's current form in the 80s.

Except of course Llandaf station isn't in Llandaff, it's in Llandaff North / Ystum Taf.

 

[zwk500]

The town (and presumably the station) was Llanelly until 1966 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llanelli#Toponymy refers)

Thank you, always interested to learn about name history!

On a related subject though, is the Welsh translation of Manchester a native word or a 18th/19th Century invention?

 

[oglord]

Absolutely not. This would case confusion and resentment.

 

[Daniel Boone]

Absolutely not. This would case confusion and resentment.

Please elaborate on how and why? I welcome your difference of opinion, I'd just like to understand.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Absolutely not. This would case confusion and resentment.

This does seem a bit overstated, but pragmatically it's not for the railway to lead on this issue - nor is it for them to lag behind. So if the road into town has bilingual name signs, then the station name should be bilingual as well: if the town makes do with one version of the name, then the station should do the same.

 

[Jaydubya]

Bow Street and Fairbourne stations are known purely by their English spellings as there is no Welsh equivalent for the places. Bow Street being a new station as well.

 

[Daniel Boone]

This does seem a bit overstated, but pragmatically it's not for the railway to lead on this issue - nor is it for them to lag behind. So if the road into town has bilingual name signs, then the station name should be bilingual as well: if the town makes do with one version of the name, then the station should do the same.

That's a perfectly reasonable position to take.

 

[oglord]

Please elaborate on how and why? I welcome your difference of opinion, I'd just like to understand.

It's fairly obvious. TfW have already forced the more Welsh-sounding announcements. Removing the English-language names would be ridiculous. People other than Welsh nationalists live in and visit these places!

 

[Daniel Boone]

It's fairly obvious. TfW have already forced the more Welsh-sounding announcements. Removing the English-language names would be ridiculous. People other than Welsh nationalists live in and visit these places!

You continue not to say why it would be ridiculous? I understand the cost would be unreasonable, especially since signage has very recently been updated. I can also see a degree of confusion among some, particularly tourists, if the station name doesn't correspond with the name of the town or area it's located in (Though look at Trefforest & Llandaf). Some English names are undeniably part of Wales' history such as Cardiff and deserve to be retained. Others I believe to be irrational.

Trefforest! That's where the other f went @The exile! Platfform must've gotten theirs elsewhere.

 

[The exile]

It's fairly obvious. TfW have already forced the more Welsh-sounding announcements. Removing the English-language names would be ridiculous. People other than Welsh nationalists live in and visit these places!

In the cases mentioned originally :

Rhymni - Rhymney
Bargod - Bargoed
Caerffili - Caerphilly
Llanisien - Llanishen
Merthyr Tudful - Merthyr Tydfil
Radur - Radyr
Treorci - Treorchy

there's very little that's ridiculous about it. Pragmatically there should perhaps be an intermediate stage where signage continues to show the English version (maybe in grey and in brackets below) but, given it's also been suggested that this should only happen once the municipality has wholly adopted the Welsh name, it shouldn't be that hard to realise where you are. With somewhere like Lefel Uchel y Mynydd Bychan it's a different story - though I wouldn't describe even that as ridiculous; just unnecessarily dogmatic.

 

[oglord]

You continue not to say why it would be ridiculous? I understand the cost would be unreasonable, especially since signage has very recently been updated. I can also see a degree of confusion among some, particularly tourists, if the station name doesn't correspond with the name of the town or area it's located in (Though look at Trefforest & Llandaf). Some English names are undeniably part of Wales' history such as Cardiff and deserve to be retained. Others I believe to be irrational.

Trefforest! That's where the other f went @The exile! Platfform must've gotten theirs elsewhere.

It is ridiculous because 100% of people in Wales and the UK speak English, whereas only 17.8% of people in Wales and approximately 0% of people in the rest of the UK speak Welsh. This does not need pointing out to anyone arguing in good faith.

 

[Daniel Boone]

It is ridiculous because 100% of people in Wales and the UK speak English, whereas only 17.8% of people in Wales and approximately 0% of people in the rest of the UK speak Welsh. This does not need pointing out to anyone arguing in good faith.

That's completely valid. It's a strong point.
I think it would be disingenuous to suggest that people are unable to pronounce Welsh place names, despite not speaking Welsh. They're surrounded by it - they pick up aspects of Welsh pronunciation, not to mention newer generations are brought up with it through the school system. Everyone, I meet can pronounce the places I've listed perfectly well and if presented with the Welsh variant I don't think they'd struggle, but that's speculative on my part.

 

[edwin_m]

I believe the spelling/pronunciation rules in Welsh are pretty consistent, so it should be possible to pronounce an unknown word correctly just by following a set of rules. This is like German or Spanish but most definitely unlike English. So in some ways it makes sense to use the Welsh names where they sound similar to the English (so typically where a Welsh name was Anglicised).

There are of course some outliers that are more difficult to deal with. A foreign tourist going to Florence might just stay on the train when they get to "Firenze", and if Swansea deciding it would henceforth only be known as Abertawe would create some problems for the railway.

 

[etr221]

I believe the spelling/pronunciation rules in Welsh are pretty consistent, so it should be possible to pronounce an unknown word correctly just by following a set of rules. This is like German or Spanish but most definitely unlike English. So in some ways it makes sense to use the Welsh names where they sound similar to the English (so typically where a Welsh name was Anglicised).

That may be the case, but - as a non-Welsh speaking Anglophone - I don't know the rules.

My thinking is that if a place wants to only use the Welsh spelling of its name, the cost it has to bear is people like me (potentially) mangling the way it's pronounced, as we apply English rules.

 

[Smwrff]

Totally support this - I would support rationalising all place names in Wales/Cymru not just railway station names, but sticking with railways for this thread....

Start with removing completely unneccesary translations Aberystwyth/Aberystwyth.....

Then place names which have only minor spelling changes but are pronounced exactly the same...Radyr/Radur and others listed above.

Then move onto subtle changes Barry/Y Barri

In the longer term I would reverse the anglicised place names including Cardiff/Caerdydd but this would be more of a political decision to be made in conjunction with local authority.

To be clear - rationalising in favour of Welsh/Cymraeg spelling.

 

[mrmartin]

While this is a contentious issue, I find it quite odd and completely disjointed compared to the direction of travel elsewhere in Europe.

If you go to Amsterdam, Schiphol has _only_ English signage. Brussels airport is the same. Many commercial establishments as well in Amsterdam only had signage in English (including job adverts for bar staff!).

This is in a city that is >85% fluent in Dutch. Yet in Wales which is ~18% Welsh speaking (and falling, despite huge sums of money being spent), there's a relentless drive to remove/demote English.

I actually don't have a problem with commercial businesses choosing their signage language, it's their prerogative. But for travel English should be prioritised like it is in other European countries that don't even have English as an official language.

One example is i cannot read departure boards now in a hurry at Cardiff Central, and I'm a pretty fast reader with good eyesight. By the time I've scanned the board, it's switched into Welsh and I have to start again. Quicker to just get my phone out.

And as some have said, this is extremely confusing for non English speakers. Caerffili - Caerphilly sounds the same to native/fluent English speakers, but those from other countries will not grasp that quickly (it's hard enough for non native English speakers that ph and f sound so similar in English without throwing a ff in).

Barry/Y Barri are completely different. I would not know they were the same place in a rush - we read left to right and if the first letter is different it is not quick to decipher.

 

[bishdunster]

Presumably the Welsh government will be picking up the bill .

 

[themiller]

Presumably the Welsh government will be picking up the bill .

Which would be huge when you consider that it’s not just the station name boards that need to be changed but also various categories of documentation such as contracts for services, maintenance files and the entire ticketing system.

 

[BeijingDave]

No point changing Caerphilly until the name is changed on most of the town's most famous product's packaging, which has way more recognition than the railway station.

 

[35B]

Totally support this - I would support rationalising all place names in Wales/Cymru not just railway station names, but sticking with railways for this thread....

Start with removing completely unneccesary translations Aberystwyth/Aberystwyth.....

Then place names which have only minor spelling changes but are pronounced exactly the same...Radyr/Radur and others listed above.

Then move onto subtle changes Barry/Y Barri

In the longer term I would reverse the anglicised place names including Cardiff/Caerdydd but this would be more of a political decision to be made in conjunction with local authority.

To be clear - rationalising in favour of Welsh/Cymraeg spelling.

I think there’s a wider challenge on the politics of language. Shifting the emphasis to a language that is spoken by a minority of residents is a highly political act, which says in effect that the interests of that minority outweigh those of the majority.

Better to go with Swiss style bilingualism, where signage is multi lingual, but with the language actually used in the area leading.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

No point changing Caerphilly until the name is changed on most of the town's most famous product's packaging, which has way more recognition than the railway station.

Per Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caerphilly_cheese)

The majority of Caerphilly is now produced in Somerset and Wiltshire.

We may have to wait some time for it to be renamed 'Somerset and Wiltshire Cheese'.

 

[robert thomas]

That may be the case, but - as a non-Welsh speaking Anglophone - I don't know the rules.

My thinking is that if a place wants to only use the Welsh spelling of its name, the cost it has to bear is people like me (potentially) mangling the way it's pronounced, as we apply English rules.

As far as I know there are no English rules on pronunciation it is rather haphazard as in, say, cough and bough.