Station Name Rationalisation in the South Wales Area

[RUK]

Would this create problems for those who don’t know the area and are searching for the destinations on-line using the English name, such as when buying tickets?

 

[Pigeon]

I believe the spelling/pronunciation rules in Welsh are pretty consistent, so it should be possible to pronounce an unknown word correctly just by following a set of rules. This is like German or Spanish but most definitely unlike English.

Yes, pretty much. And to make things worse, often the English versions of names for Welsh places are somewhere between poorly representative of the correct sound and just plain wrong.

It gets particularly awkward in South Wales where so many names are written in a bastardised mixture of English and Welsh spelling, so the pronunciation rules change half way through the word - nor is it always obvious where - and there's next to no chance of correctly working out what it's supposed to sound like. (And that's leaving aside those cases where even the locals don't seem to be able to agree.)

Where a standard Welsh spelling does exist, it's an invaluable guide to a reasonable pronunciation.

 

[Falcon1200]

it is rather haphazard as in, say, cough and bough.

And rough!

I rather enjoy going to Wales and hearing the Welsh announcements, you do know you are in another country.

Where Welsh and English place-name spellings are almost identical it makes sense to use the Welsh version, however whether it makes sense to spend money altering what are perfectly clear signs already is another matter.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Where Welsh and English place-name spellings are almost identical it makes sense to use the Welsh version, however whether it makes sense to spend money altering what are perfectly clear signs already is another matter.

Well, I guess if you were to alter the signage, it would be done as and when the signs needed renewing anyway. That's certainly what happened when road signs went bilingual back in the last century.

 

[Tester]

As far as I know there are no English rules on pronunciation it is rather haphazard as in, say, cough and bough.

Don't forget dough and tough

 

[Ian Hardy]

Would these changes be a good use of the limited funds available to the railway. The result could be that the station has been renamed but the train service has been reduced to fund all the changes to all the railway systems, the easy and cheap bit is changing the station signs.

 

[Djgr]

I think there’s a wider challenge on the politics of language. Shifting the emphasis to a language that is spoken by a minority of residents is a highly political act, which says in effect that the interests of that minority outweigh those of the majority.

It's far more complicated than that. Fundamentally it's about correcting historical supression and oppression.

 

[Rescars]

Don't forget dough and tough

Thou should think this through though. Food for thought!

 

[edwin_m]

Thou should think this through though. Food for thought!

That's enough.

 

[Burton Road]

I like the idea, but the historical pedant in me in still annoyed by Scotrail's renaming every station in Gaelic even in areas that were never Gaelic speaking. There's more sense in calling Manchester Piccadilly "Macenion Picadili" than calling Ecclefechan "Eaglais Fheichein".

 

[RUK]

I like the idea, but the historical pedant in me in still annoyed by Scotrail's renaming every station in Gaelic even in areas that were never Gaelic speaking. There's more sense in calling Manchester Piccadilly "Macenion Picadili" than calling Ecclefechan "Eaglais Fheichein".

Is it not reverse payback for them having been re-named in English in the past - revenge and retribution?

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

I'm reminded of the American tourist complaining about Germans insisting that Cologne was called Koeln. I'm all in favour of exclusive Welsh names - there has been a move in that direction anyway with Llanelli, Caernarfon etc. However, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander - I get irritated by announcements for Amwythig and Manceinion!

 

[The exile]

Per Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caerphilly_cheese)

We may have to wait some time for it to be renamed 'Somerset and Wiltshire Cheese'.

The quote about Caerphilly now being mainly produced in Somerset / Wiltshire has disappeared in quoting the post, but AFAIK it was always the case that it was cheese for Caerphilly, not from there.

 

[chris_in_salop]

Yes, pretty much. And to make things worse, often the English versions of names for Welsh places are somewhere between poorly representative of the correct sound and just plain wrong.

It gets particularly awkward in South Wales where so many names are written in a bastardised mixture of English and Welsh spelling, so the pronunciation rules change half way through the word - nor is it always obvious where - and there's next to no chance of correctly working out what it's supposed to sound like. (And that's leaving aside those cases where even the locals don't seem to be able to agree.)

Where a standard Welsh spelling does exist, it's an invaluable guide to a reasonable pronunciation.

Plenty of examples of a bastardised mix of English and Welsh in the placenames of west Shropshire. Many of these hybrid placenames are very old.

And despite being completely English, I'm not unsympathetic to Welsh grievances. The English treatment of Wales has often been thoughtless.

But this renaming strikes me as classic displacement activity. Despite all the promises of the 197s, TfW continues to run wholly inadequate 2 car trains along the North Wales coast and up and down the Marches. I suggest sorting that out is a rather more important priority than fussing over the spelling of Fflint.

 

[Tester]

That's enough.

And with that, I think we can offer some well deserved sympathy for anyone learning English as a non-native speaker!

 

[chargesmith]

I'd like to hear people's thoughts on the expulsion of certain anglicised station names which do not differ immensely from the original Welsh spelling or pronunciation.

The stations names I believe merit discussion are:

Rhymni - Rhymney
Bargod - Bargoed
Caerffili - Caerphilly
Llanisien - Llanishen
Merthyr Tudful - Merthyr Tydfil
Radur - Radyr
Treorci - Treorchy

I myself can see some counter points, perhaps around tourism? However, I cannot think of any other practical issues that pro-welsh rationalisation could have. There is precedent for a change like this, Llandaf is the only example to my knowledge. I'd be happy to hear some insights on this even if you're not from the area.

This has already happened in some parts of the network. The PIS screens on the outside of the new Metro trains are only showing the Welsh names for stations like the ones you've listed for simplicity.

The interior PIS screens are still fully bilingual, as are station signs and automatic announcements.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Nov 2025 ==

It is ridiculous because 100% of people in Wales and the UK speak English, whereas only 17.8% of people in Wales and approximately 0% of people in the rest of the UK speak Welsh. This does not need pointing out to anyone arguing in good faith.

This is inaccurate.

Somewhere between 110,000 and 200,000 people living in England can speak Welsh. Around 7,000 people in England identified it as their main language at the last census.

And there are definitely people in Wales who are more fluent in Welsh than English. Some especially older people struggle to speak English at all.

 

[daodao]

I like the idea, but the historical pedant in me in still annoyed by Scotrail's renaming every station in Gaelic even in areas that were never Gaelic speaking. There's more sense in calling Manchester Piccadilly "Macenion Picadili" than calling Ecclefechan "Eaglais Fheichein".

Ecclefechan is actually an Anglicisation of the Celtic (Brittonic) "Eglwys Fechan", which would be Littlechurch in English.

Within Wales, it is reasonable to standardise on the Welsh version such as Caerdydd where the Anglicised name is a bastardisation of the original, but it is desirable to provide both names where they are very different, e.g. Eglwys Newydd and Whitchurch.

 

[35B]

It's far more complicated than that. Fundamentally it's about correcting historical supression and oppression.

As I said, a political act. I’m well aware that there’s a long and inglorious history of English suppression of the Welsh language, and that Welsh language policies are, amongst other things, about unwinding that.

I simply happen to think the narrow nationalism represented by the manner of this approach is wrong in principle and practice, hence my suggestion of a Swiss style balance.

 

[WAB]

If local communities are happy to change their name and care enough to get it done, then the railway can follow suit. Until then, no matter how tempting it is to make things 'neater' or to right a historic wrong, it should be left alone rather than fiddling with the community identities of others.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

I simply happen to think the narrow nationalism represented by the manner of this approach is wrong in principle and practice, hence my suggestion of a Swiss style balance.

Funny how everone else's nationalism is 'narrow' but never your own!

 

[35B]

Funny how everone else's nationalism is 'narrow' but never your own!

Indeed. And if there were no question about the balance of use, I’d not be querying the value

 

[0161]

I like the idea, but the historical pedant in me in still annoyed by Scotrail's renaming every station in Gaelic even in areas that were never Gaelic speaking. There's more sense in calling Manchester Piccadilly "Macenion Picadili" than calling Ecclefechan "Eaglais Fheichein".

There's probably more Welsh speakers here in Manchester than English speakers in Ecclefechan!

 

[unlevel42]

It is ridiculous because 100% of people in Wales and the UK speak English, whereas only 17.8% of people in Wales and approximately 0% of people in the rest of the UK speak Welsh. This does not need pointing out to anyone arguing in good faith.

Being bilingual you will need to convert that statistical and irrelevant mush and its into a language I can understand.
What does this mean in maths?:

approximately 0% of people in the rest of the UK speak Welsh

Decades ago our statisticians at the university, we estimated at least 3000 speakers in our English city city which would be equivalent to 300 000 in England having some Welsh.
.
Also what does this mean?

This does not need pointing out to anyone arguing in good faith.

Is it another way of telling me 'I'm right and you are wrong' ?
.
Most of use a range of cues to understand our location and how to get to where we want to go and for those who have difficulty a wide rage of help has always been available such as:
asking
signs
route maps
announcements
ticket offices
displays
apps
In fact there are a number of ways and most of us have our preferences. My dad told me you should always ask the driver- which failed me at New Street and Manchester airport last year.
.
I can only surmise that there are some have little experience of the multi lingual world that exists outside England and are thrown when the hear people talking funny.
Place names, locations and directions are very easy to deal with nowadays unless you don't want to...
.
However that has nothing to do with the principle decided in Wales by Welsh people to make Welsh 'normal' again in Wales. This requires positive steps and that includes some very easy steps that the all of us can manage without noticing or creating a fuss.

 

[Rescars]

The BBC reports today that Gaelic and Scots are now recognised as official languages in Scotland. How long will it be before stations are named and announcements made in three languages?

 

[WAB]

300 000 in England having some Welsh.

What level of understanding of Welsh justifies the more commonly-used English translations for many places in Wales being removed?

 

[Barry169]

Good idea.

Simpler.

And in that annoys the bigots, even better.

 

[Djgr]

The BBC reports today that Gaelic and Scots are now recognised as official languages in Scotland. How long will it be before stations are named and announcements made in three languages?

Well there is at least some of that already.

Perhaps decisions about stations in Scotland could be left to the Scots, stations in Wales could be left to the Welsh and the English butt out?

 

[Chester1]

Good idea.

Simpler.

And in that annoys the bigots, even better.

I am happy as long as TfW puts English first on announcements in England and uses English names for stops England, for both languages. No fashionable arguments about power dynamics and historic oppression. Same rules both sides of the border i.e. places called their local name and the national language announced first.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

What level of understanding of Welsh justifies the more commonly-used English translations for many places in Wales being removed?

They aren't translations though. They're mis-spellings of Welsh names.

A translation of Tirff(ph)il, for instance, would be Phil's Land. Tirphil is simply bad spelling of a Welsh name.

 

[rf_ioliver]

They aren't translations though. They're mis-spellings of Welsh names.

A translation of Tirff(ph)il, for instance, would be Phil's Land. Tirphil is simply bad spelling of a Welsh name.

Misspellings IMHO should be corrected and these are more commonly seen in south (and to a point west Wales): The classic case is Llanelly being properly corrected to Llanelli, similarly Merthyr Tydfil, where the latter is misspelling of Tudful, or more correctly here, forcing the Welsh spelling to use English spelling rules.

There is some idiocy about, such as both Tonteg and Ton-teg appearing on some signs - the etymology of that one is a bit mixed however - or both Rhydfelen and Rhydyfelen appearing - not sure if this is a mistranslation, misspelling, but both are quite valid and describe different aspects of the area; so it could just be two Welsh names are used for the same place, or it is just a local pronounciation issue.

If an area has a Welsh name, then use that; if it has both a Welsh and English name that are sufficiently different, eg: Newport/Casnewydd then both. Misspellings, eg: ff->f in Trefforest, should overtime be corrected. Restoration of the definitive article in Celtic placenames also comes under thing, Y Barri being a good example where there "Y" has been dropped (cf: Yr Wyddgrug/Mold).

If you want a very interesting case, then Pontypridd, which is a contraction of Pont y Ty Pridd, but the town was renamed Newbridge from about 1756 to the 1860s.

But, if you want to go down the road of names, then maybe Glasgow should also have its original Brittonic/Welsh names on signs too....