East-West Rail (EWR) Cambridge - Bletchley - Oxford speculative thread

[dorsetdesiro]

Only if - the final part gets built before all parts get joined up, the third TOC could be Greater Anglia for Cambridge - Bedford.

Whether this will be all by then be GBR branded - or similar as the old BR sector brands like RR etc - by the time EWR is fully completed & serviced as a whole instead 2 or 3 TOCs, if re-nationalisation did not happen the new single TOC for EWR could have been Crosscountry or a new EWR dedicated one like Varsity Trains?

 

[RUK]

So the EWR is currently run in two parts, Oxford to Bletchley by Chiltern then from there to Bedford by LNR.

When the final bit to Cambridge is completed, there may be a third TOC for it as the whole EWR may not be completed and ready for a new fleet for the whole route as there is the Marston Vale to be extensively upgraded with new stations/relocations if this is not all done at the same time?

There may be two modern EWR parts with modern stock, with the older MV part in between run by 150s, for some time until all are fully integrated?

I don’t think so - I think that the Marston Vale upgrading is next, with Oxford to Bedford meant to be complete by around 2030 (well, they were meant to have started upgrading it this year, so it’s probably already slipped a bit further than that), and 2030 is when they’ll begin building the last section to Cambridge, which is meant to be done by 2035.

 

[The Planner]

Agree. If only the Railtrack initiated resignalling colour light replacement of semaphores had actually been future-planned rather thsan planting signals in the middle of already short platforms.

I have laughed out loud at this. It was another shocker of a scheme.

 

[camflyer]

London to Newmarket is another good option, and doesn't have to wait for OHLE these days!

London to Newmarket would be amazing but I can't see it happening with the current station and rail infrastructure in the area. I'd settle for a half-hourly service to Cambridge and Bury/Ipswich which would be much cheaper.

 

[dk1]

London to Newmarket would be amazing but I can't see it happening with the current station and rail infrastructure in the area. I'd settle for a half-hourly service to Cambridge and Bury/Ipswich which would be much cheaper.

That may be possible once Cambridge East is built.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don’t think so - I think that the Marston Vale upgrading is next, with Oxford to Bedford meant to be complete by around 2030 (well, they were meant to have started upgrading it this year, so it’s probably already slipped a bit further than that), and 2030 is when they’ll begin building the last section to Cambridge, which is meant to be done by 2035.

The Marston Vale section was included in the 2020 TWA Order. I’m sure back when we first discussed it all it was to be done at the same time as Oxford to Bletchley, indeed the published scheme name was the ‘Network Rail (East West Rail) (Oxford to Bedford Improvements) Order’. Typical of the way these things turn out that a 5 year delay gets negotiated in on the quiet…

 

[jfowkes]

I am not so sure Bedford - Cambridge will open in one hit, if it ever does. The last plan I read was the new line needs to run along the route of the guided busway, which I think was the old railway formation anyway. Please correct me if that is not the case.

The proposed route for Bedford - Cambridge doesn't use any part of the guided busway. At the Cambridge end, it leaves the existing railway before Foxton, heads northwest to Cambourne, then basically follows the A428/A1 to St. Neots and Tempsford.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The proposed route for Bedford - Cambridge doesn't use any part of the guided busway. At the Cambridge end, it leaves the existing railway before Foxton, heads northwest to Cambourne, then basically follows the A428/A1 to St. Neots and Tempsford.
View attachment 192722

Just on the most cursory glance at that map, that seems a ridiculously indirect route between Tempsford and Cambridge. Granted it would be impossible to make it a perfect straight line, but for anyone travelling from Camborne to Cambridge/Cambridge North, the roundabout route must surely be close to twice the distance that a straight line would be!

 

[PLY2AYS]

Just on the most cursory glance at that map, that seems a ridiculously indirect route between Tempsford and Cambridge. Granted it would be impossible to make it a perfect straight line, but for anyone travelling from Camborne to Cambridge/Cambridge North, the roundabout route must surely be close to twice the distance that a straight line would be!

Not that I’m particularly au fait with the plans, but my understanding is that this route avoided boring new tunnels and made most sense in connecting to Cambridge South new station.
Happy to be corrected however.

 

[jfowkes]

Just on the most cursory glance at that map, that seems a ridiculously indirect route between Tempsford and Cambridge. Granted it would be impossible to make it a perfect straight line, but for anyone travelling from Camborne to Cambridge/Cambridge North, the roundabout route must surely be close to twice the distance that a straight line would be!

Not that I’m particularly au fait with the plans, but my understanding is that this route avoided boring new tunnels and made most sense in connecting to Cambridge South new station.
Happy to be corrected however.

Yeah it's quite an indirect route. AIUI the main criteria for the line are
- Avoid reversing at Bedford
- Approach Cambridge from the south to allow for both extending journeys to the North without reversing, and servicing Cambridge South
- Serve Cambourne
- Serve a new station in the Tempsford area

Once you take all those into account, you constrain the possible solutions to quite a narrow set of routes.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Just on the most cursory glance at that map, that seems a ridiculously indirect route between Tempsford and Cambridge. Granted it would be impossible to make it a perfect straight line, but for anyone travelling from Camborne to Cambridge/Cambridge North, the roundabout route must surely be close to twice the distance that a straight line would be!

Straight line Bedford to Cambridge used to exist, through Old North Road and the western suburbs of Cambridge. Track bed long since built on extensively. The Station House at Old North Road still has a platform and a bucolic little 1:1 scale model railway including Mk 1 coach!

Cambourne is also now a big, fast growing settlement with only a couple of slow bus routes to Cambridge and St Neots/Huntingdon, and it is worth the diversion to serve it.

 

[mr_jrt]

I do still feel the need to serve Cambridge and Anglia via Newmarket without reversal is a unnecessary, and a northern approach makes far more sense, connectivity-wise. The ideal situation IMHO was always St Neots, Cambourne, Histon <- On the former St. Ives alignment -> Cambridge North, and then four-tracking down to Cambridge South, with services turning back there, and maybe much later extended to Stansted, or ideally, the GEML via a new alignment from Stansted to the Braintree branch.

 

[bspahh]

I do still feel the need to serve Cambridge and Anglia via Newmarket without reversal is a unnecessary, and a northern approach makes far more sense, connectivity-wise. The ideal situation IMHO was always St Neots, Cambourne, Histon <- On the former St. Ives alignment -> Cambridge North, and then four-tracking down to Cambridge South, with services turning back there, and maybe much later extended to Stansted, or ideally, the GEML via a new alignment from Stansted to the Braintree branch.

Changing to a Northern route into Cambridge would cause a long delay to the project. The old St Ives alignment across Milton Road in Cambridge would not be practical with a level crossing. A tunnel under Milton Road would be really expensive. The roadworks to get the railway across the A14 and the A10 (if you loop North of Milton) would be disruptive and poisonous politically.

 

[camflyer]

There is zero chance of the northern approach being resurrected. Using the busway alignment would mean dealing with Milton Rd junction and joining the Ely line between Milton and Waterbeach wouldn't be much more direct than the southern approach without any of the economic benefits. EWR have looked at all of this several times and aren't going to change their mind.

Most of the people proposing the northern approach were just Nimbys from the south of the city.

 

[mr_jrt]

Don't get me wrong - I'm not suggesting for a moment that I think things would change, just that I think the wrong decision was made. All the embankments, tunnels, flying junctions et al. that are going to be built for the southern approach are, at best, a wash financially with the works required for a northern approach. Sticking the line through Milton in a cutting (though that would have awful flood risk) or up on an embankment (which might actually help grade separate the junction with the main line) isn't really that different from the embankment the line is going to largely end up on between Cambourne and Hauxton.

 

[stevieinselby]

I do still feel the need to serve Cambridge and Anglia via Newmarket without reversal is a unnecessary, and a northern approach makes far more sense, connectivity-wise. The ideal situation IMHO was always St Neots, Cambourne, Histon <- On the former St. Ives alignment -> Cambridge North, and then four-tracking down to Cambridge South, with services turning back there, and maybe much later extended to Stansted, or ideally, the GEML via a new alignment from Stansted to the Braintree branch.

One factor may be that it allows freight trains from Felixstowe to run straight through onto EWR without needing to reverse at Cambridge, so while there isn't likely to be a passenger service beyond Cambridge East, there is potential usage for freight trains running through.

 

[Magdalia]

AIUI the main criteria for the line are
- Avoid reversing at Bedford
- Approach Cambridge from the south to allow for both extending journeys to the North without reversing, and servicing Cambridge South
- Serve Cambourne
- Serve a new station in the Tempsford area

Once you take all those into account, you constrain the possible solutions to quite a narrow set of routes.

This is the right answer. In particular, the continuing rapid growth of the Biomedical Campus, adjacent to the new Cambridge South station, favours the southern approach.

a northern approach makes far more sense, connectivity-wise.

East West Rail is not about connectivity, it is about economic growth in the Oxford-Cambridge corridor.

Histon <- On the former St. Ives alignment -> Cambridge North,

The busway took that 15 years ago.

Furthermore, the northern approach was a nightmare for crossing Fen Road and the river, with 4 tracks impossible.

There is zero chance of the northern approach being resurrected.

Absolutely. It would add 5 years at least to getting trains Bedford-Cambridge.

 

[Brubulus]

From what I understand, a decent amount of money will be saved by running it alongside the new A428 alignment, which is why a Camborne North station was proposed instead of a Camborne South one, though it does seem to add substantial additional mileage.

 

[mr_jrt]

One factor may be that it allows freight trains from Felixstowe to run straight through onto EWR without needing to reverse at Cambridge, so while there isn't likely to be a passenger service beyond Cambridge East, there is potential usage for freight trains running through.

Easily handled by a chord wherever the line branches off.

This is the right answer. In particular, the continuing rapid growth of the Biomedical Campus, adjacent to the new Cambridge South station, favours the southern approach.

Serving CS is just as viable regardless of which direction you approach by, it favours neither one option nor the other.

East West Rail is not about connectivity, it is about economic growth in the Oxford-Cambridge corridor.

The two are essentially the same thing. Improved connectivity creates economic growth.

The busway took that 15 years ago.

Mistakes can be rectified. Besides, the primary advantage of a bus is that it is easy to reroute using roads - of which there are parallel options for on this section. If the busway is sacrosanct and cannot possibly be touched, then swing round the built-up area further north. It'd still be less crazy extra mileage than the proposed southern routing. Would also make having a station at Northstowe more viable in any case.

Furthermore, the northern approach was a nightmare for crossing Fen Road and the river, with 4 tracks impossible.

Impossible is a very big word to throw around so easily. The river needs a parallel bridge, and I'm sure a solution could be found for the level crossing. Arguably, that's a nettle the existing railway will need to grasp sooner rather than later, regardless.

Absolutely. It would add 5 years at least to getting trains Bedford-Cambridge.

Maybe. Maybe not.

 

[stevieinselby]

Easily handled by a chord wherever the line branches off.

The issue would not be "wherever the line branches off" but in Cambridge itself. The line from Felixstowe curves to run south through Cambridge station.
Therefore if the East/West route leaves Cambridge from the south then trains can run straight through without any problem.
But if the East/West route leaves Cambridge from the north then a new chord would be needed to allow trains coming from Felixstowe to turn north to join the mainline, bypassing Cambridge station, which would involve building over a park and bulldozing a number of industrial units.

The next problem is that with the Busway having taken the obvious route from Cambridge North, any new alignment would have to loop around the north of Milton and Histon, which would make it just as circuitous and long-winded as the planned route via Cambridge South.

 

[cle]

The fact is, it’s going via the south route. No point debating it with conditional what-if BS, it’s happening.

And yes it looks a bit dumb on a map but it’s also not that far.

And this doesn’t wash its face on Oxford-Cambridge demand in itself… by any means. Sounds poetic, but it’s marginal.

 

[Magdalia]

Serving CS is just as viable regardless of which direction you approach by, it favours neither one option nor the other.

No it isn't. The northern approach adds about 10 minutes journey time to Cambridge South compared to the southern approach. In particular, the southern approach brings Bedford and Stewartby into commuting range for Cambridge South, whereas the northern approach does not.

The two are essentially the same thing. Improved connectivity creates economic growth.

Not all improved connectivity will generate the same economic growth. Connectivity along the corridor will generate a lot more growth than any other connectivity.

Mistakes can be rectified.

At vast expense both direct and through the disruption it causes. Whether or not the busway was a mistake is irrelevant, it is here now and it isn't going away.

The river needs a parallel bridge,

The space is already taken up by a parallel cycle and footbridge.

I'm sure a solution could be found for the level crossing.

If you are sure, then tell us what it is.

 

[camflyer]

Mistakes can be rectified. Besides, the primary advantage of a bus is that it is easy to reroute using roads - of which there are parallel options for on this section. If the busway is sacrosanct and cannot possibly be touched, then swing round the built-up area further north. It'd still be less crazy extra mileage than the proposed southern routing. Would also make having a station at Northstowe more viable in any case.


Impossible is a very big word to throw around so easily. The river needs a parallel bridge, and I'm sure a solution could be found for the level crossing. Arguably, that's a nettle the existing railway will need to grasp sooner rather than later, regardless.

I work on the Milton Science Park which is right next the the busway. The idea of converting it to a heavy rail line is bonkers. You would have to put the whole thing into a cutting to get under Milton Rd which would be extortionately expensive and then there is the problem of how it links up with Cambridge North without knocking down most of the new development there.

Plus you would lose the busway service and its local stops, despite its problems, is still a well used service.

 

[mr_jrt]

The issue would not be "wherever the line branches off" but in Cambridge itself. The line from Felixstowe curves to run south through Cambridge station.
Therefore if the East/West route leaves Cambridge from the south then trains can run straight through without any problem.
But if the East/West route leaves Cambridge from the north then a new chord would be needed to allow trains coming from Felixstowe to turn north to join the mainline, bypassing Cambridge station, which would involve building over a park and bulldozing a number of industrial units.

A small corner of the common and a few industrial units is not a massive ask. Just ask the residents of Bedford! There's also the option of routing via Soham and Ely. Arguably, routing the freight that way frees up capacity along the line for more passenger service at Cherry Hinton, Fulborn, Dullingham, and Newmarket.

The next problem is that with the Busway having taken the obvious route from Cambridge North, any new alignment would have to loop around the north of Milton and Histon, which would make it just as circuitous and long-winded as the planned route via Cambridge South.

I'd argue it's a lot less circuitous, especially to Cambridge North, where the Science Park is!

No it isn't. The northern approach adds about 10 minutes journey time to Cambridge South compared to the southern approach. In particular, the southern approach brings Bedford and Stewartby into commuting range for Cambridge South, whereas the northern approach does not.

I'll take those 10 minutes with a pinch of salt, but regardless, even 10 minutes doesn't make the difference to commuting range. Just think of it as bringing the Science Park into your commuting range of Bedford and Stewartby

The space is already taken up by a parallel cycle and footbridge.

That can be moved, or you can built a new rail bridge on the other side.

If you are sure, then tell us what it is.

Off the top of my head, in no particular order (and I'm sure there are other options):

• You stop up the existing road. I would imagine there would be a bit of uproar if you didn't replace the link in some fashion! Conceivably you could do something with Moss Bank and the yard on the other side with a new dogleg link under the railway.
• You raise the railway up and bridge the road. Cambridge North complicates this, but it's not impossible, just very expensive, and there would be lengthy closures.
• You drive the road under the railway. The junctions for Moss Bank & Cheney Way complicate this, probably too much. That's before you even begin to consider the flood risk.

I work on the Milton Science Park which is right next the the busway. The idea of converting it to a heavy rail line is bonkers. You would have to put the whole thing into a cutting to get under Milton Rd which would be extortionately expensive and then there is the problem of how it links up with Cambridge North without knocking down most of the new development there.

Perhaps. There also the option of putting it up on an embankment, though. A lot of the proposed southern approach is going to up on an embankment, abet though a much less built-up area.

Whilst I think it would be a better solution, I would expect any theoretical northern approach would skirt Milton, though, leaving the busway well alone.

Plus you would lose the busway service and its local stops, despite its problems, is still a well used service.

I suspect the local service would continue to be well used running on parallel roads, with passengers from further out enjoying faster journey times by rail.

 

[Trainbike46]

A small corner of the common and a few industrial units is not a massive ask. Just ask the residents of Bedford! There's also the option of routing via Soham and Ely. Arguably, routing the freight that way frees up capacity along the line for more passenger service at Cherry Hinton, Fulborn, Dullingham, and Newmarket.


I'd argue it's a lot less circuitous, especially to Cambridge North, where the Science Park is!


I'll take those 10 minutes with a pinch of salt, but regardless, even 10 minutes doesn't make the difference to commuting range. Just think of it as bringing the Science Park into your commuting range of Bedford and Stewartby


That can be moved, or you can built a new rail bridge on the other side.


Off the top of my head, in no particular order (and I'm sure there are other options):

• You stop up the existing road. I would imagine there would be a bit of uproar if you didn't replace the link in some fashion! Conceivably you could do something with Moss Bank and the yard on the other side with a new dogleg link under the railway.
• You raise the railway up and bridge the road. Cambridge North complicates this, but it's not impossible, just very expensive, and there would be lengthy closures.
• You drive the road under the railway. The junctions for Moss Bank & Cheney Way complicate this, probably too much. That's before you even begin to consider the flood risk.

Perhaps. There also the option of putting it up on an embankment, though. A lot of the proposed southern approach is going to up on an embankment, abet though a much less built-up area.

Whilst I think it would be a better solution, I would expect any theoretical northern approach would skirt Milton, though, leaving the busway well alone.


I suspect the local service would continue to be well used running on parallel roads, with passengers from further out enjoying faster journey times by rail.

Do you not see how your own arguments make it quite clear that going via Cambridge north is a much worse option, especially when taken together with the excellent points made by others in this thread? Nothing you have stated shows any advantage of a Nothern approach over a southern approach, but it does make rather clear the disadvantages of a Northern approach.

Cambridge South is more important than Cambridge north, despite the science park. The biomedical campus is the real growth opportunity.

Serving Cambridge south is easy if coming from the south, whereas it is anything but that if coming from the north. To serve Cambridge South if coming in from the north, you need somewhere to terminate those trains. There are limited options for that, as you can't terminate at Cambridge south itself:

• Build a new dedicated turning facility somewhere south of Cambridge south (expensive and limited benefit, while adding many ECS runs between Cambridge South and the turning facility, taking up line capacity)
• Run EWR services through to Stansted Airport (limited to 2tph, while EWR is planned to run at 4tph, and requires ending both the popular and important existing services from Norwich and Peterborough. Given the importance of Peterborough as an interchange, this is a terrible option)
• Connect the EWR services to the services running through to Liverpool Street (imports delays between the WAML and EWR, reducing reliability for both, while providing hardly any useful connectivity)
• Connect the EWR services to the Thameslink service or the GN stopper (imports delays between EWR and the ECML, and potentially even into Thameslink, which would be a disaster for reliability, while providing literally no useful connectivity)

As you can see, these are all terrible options.

On the contrary, the benefits of a southern approach are many:

• Serves Cambridge south, the second most important station after Cambridge (central), by default
• Offers through running without reversing for freight coming from Felixstowe (and this is key, EWR is a railway for both passengers and freight)
• Does not interfere with the Busway, which is well-used (depends on exact route)
• Avoids the bad ground conditions to the north of Cambridge (depends on exact route)
• Allows, admittedly unlikely, but potentially useful through connections, in complete contrast with a northern approach which doesn't allow any useful through connections

And as others have pointed out, the decision has been taken: EWR will use the southern approach, so a northern approach is not happening.

 

[Magdalia]

I'll take those 10 minutes with a pinch of salt, but regardless, even 10 minutes doesn't make the difference to commuting range. Just think of it as bringing the Science Park into your commuting range of Bedford and Stewartby

The 10 minutes are the time it takes to stop at Cambridge North and Cambridge before Cambridge South.

Let's compare the Biomedical Campus and the Science Park:

• the Biomedical Campus is much bigger
• the Biomedical Campus is adjacent to Cambridge South, the Science Park is not adjacent to Cambridge North
• the Biomedical Campus has room to expand, the Science Park is hemmed in by the A14

They are not equal alternatives.

Off the top of my head, in no particular order (and I'm sure there are other options):

• You stop up the existing road. I would imagine there would be a bit of uproar if you didn't replace the link in some fashion! Conceivably you could do something with Moss Bank and the yard on the other side with a new dogleg link under the railway.
• You raise the railway up and bridge the road. Cambridge North complicates this, but it's not impossible, just very expensive, and there would be lengthy closures.
• You drive the road under the railway. The junctions for Moss Bank & Cheney Way complicate this, probably too much. That's before you even begin to consider the flood risk.

None of these are possible. Practical solutions have to be a lot more than ideas off the top of your head.

It may have escaped your attention but the only access to/from properties east of the railway is via the level crossing. Fen Road is a dead end there is no other way in or out.

The railway can't be raised up because that would require raising Cambridge North station and the existing river bridge too.

You have already provided your own explanation why the underpass option is impossible.

Practical solutions also need a way of building them. A giant hand of god doesn't plonk down the ideas off the top of your head.

That can be moved, or you can built a new rail bridge on the other side.

Moving things is very expensive. A new rail bridge on the Cambridge side would need to knock down Moss Bank, and raises further complications for Fen Road.

I suspect the local service would continue to be well used running on parallel roads,

You suspect wrongly.

the decision has been taken: EWR will use the southern approach, so a northern approach is not happening.

Just a reminder!

 

[bspahh]

It may have escaped your attention but the only access to/from properties east of the railway is via the level crossing. Fen Road is a dead end there is no other way in or out.

To the North of the Fen Road crossing there is the boundary between South Cambridgeshire district council and Cambridge City council.


This document is a few years old, but it discusses some of the problems with the area. Specifically:

At the South Cambridgeshire end of Fen Road (the rightmost point in figure 1) there are a number of business and traveller properties and the only road route available is out for them is to go down Fen Road, into East Chesterton and onwards.

The East West Rail consultation feedback report says

It is important to note that the works needed to deliver the northern approach would require the closure of, and replacement diversion for, Fen Road level crossing, which would have the potential for impacts on the established traveller community in this area. Whilst we consider it to be possible to provide mitigation measures (such as by constructing a replacement road access for the community), EWR Co notes that it is possible to avoid these impacts arising in the first place. The SATC (Southern Approach to Cambridge) avoids these impacts on the traveller community.

 

[camflyer]

The 10 minutes are the time it takes to stop at Cambridge North and Cambridge before Cambridge South.

Let's compare the Biomedical Campus and the Science Park:

• the Biomedical Campus is much bigger
• the Biomedical Campus is adjacent to Cambridge South, the Science Park is not adjacent to Cambridge North
• the Biomedical Campus has room to expand, the Science Park is hemmed in by the A14

They are not equal alternatives.

The Science Park want to expand to the other side of the A14 to create "Cambridge Science Park North" but it will be a long way from Cambridge North station.

Background - Cambridge Science Park North

cambridgescienceparknorth.co.uk

 

[Magdalia]

The Science Park want to expand to the other side of the A14 to create "Cambridge Science Park North" but it will be a long way from Cambridge North station.

Thanks, though, looking at the aerial photo, it is more Science Park West than Science Park North.

The land is near the busway, but a long way from Cambridge North station, between the Regional College and Impington.

About half a century ago I picked fruit there when Chivers still had orchards.

 

[richieb1971]

The idea that East West Rail would ever have avoided Bedford is just ridiculous, and I do not believe that the population of Bedford would have been that blinkered to have supported such an idea. Universal is going to bring massive investment to the area and your negativity does not reflect what I am hearing from people living in Bedford, Wixams and Luton.

Hmm, the central section to Cambridge that is planned is 1.5x further than it needs to be. Isn't that a massive cost you don't need? I've never seen a railway take so long to get to its destination as Route E, it looks like a snake. I think that's pretty ridiculous when you consider the cost of 1.5x the distance its going to take to get to Cambridge. Look at the line on the left built in Victorian Britain, almost a straight line.



EWR state its too expensive to go any other way, and yet choose the most ridiculous journey I've ever seen. Bedford station (Expensive), knocking down whole streets of homes (Expensive), Talking of building huge amount of bridges and tunnels (Expensive). If you talk of going any other way EWR say its TOO EXPENSIVE! That expensive bridge on Bromham road that was out of commission for a year, YEP its going to be knocked down again. I Can give all sorts of examples of being "Ridiculous".

This was an opportunity to break free of bottlenecks and move the congestion and basically make everything work better. But putting everything in bottleneck Bedford is the plan. Of course if Bedford gets some gee whiz station i'll take it all back. Yes, some folk in Bedford are not too happy with things, that's not me. I just want a great project delivered, and done with resiliency and boxed in stations and stations which already have bottlenecks is not a good foundation.