Peak Times - do they still really exist in the new WFH Environment?

[Class73Electro]

Hi Everyone,

Just question from reading the project Oval discussion.

With what looks like the installation of "Afternoon Peaks", I thought, is "peak" times actually still a thing in the post COVID WFH world? A lot of things i have seen here suggest that since WFH is now a thing, the daily commute isn't what it used to be. I thought some routes have not had the pre COVID service frequency reinstated because its not needed.

So, as someone who doesn't commute so wouldn't appreciate it so much, how busy are the trains now in the peak times, and how does it compare to off peak times?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Trains are busier at peak times than off-peak in my experience, although certain off-peak trains (like lunch time and when schools/colleges finish) are busy.
And I see trains busier on Saturdays than I almost ever do on Weekdays (but I do more travel on Saturdays)

 

[ainsworth74]

It's interesting. Taking my local line as an example (Middlesbrough - Saltburn) there's definitely still a clear morning and evening peak Monday to Friday. With Monday and Friday themselves being a bit quieter than Tuesday to Thursday. But if you travel in the middle of the day the trains are still generally notably quieter than in the peaks. But the busiest trains that I regularly use are by far on a Saturday or Sunday morning in the summer. I will not infrequently get the 1124 from Middlesbrough towards Saltburn and if the sun is threatening to come out that train will be absolutely full and standing and leave people behind. This time of year the leisure demand to the seaside is not quite as high

I obviously can't swear to how it is down in Project Oval land as I don't live there but I would imagine if I'm seeing a pattern like the above (defined peaks during the week with some high demand for leisure travel at certain times) I'm sure that the same would apply for South East as well.

 

[Rover]

What is WFH?

 

[ainsworth74]

What is WFH?

Work From Home

 

[Rover]

Work From Home

Oh I see, thanks.

 

[Magdalia]

Yes the peak still exists in both London and Cambridge. The London peak is nowhere near as busy as when I commuted, but it is definitely still there. Recent anecdotal evidence, watching trains at Cambridge, is that the peak there is bigger than it has ever been.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With a lot of people returning to the office I'd say they do. They largely don't on a Friday, but on other days, particularly Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, they are still quite prominent, if not quite as prominent as they were.

What has changed is the InterCity peak, which is what the LNER fare increase trial is aimed at addressing (aside from making more money). The InterCity peak is now basically Friday evening and Sunday afternoon, with a secondary Thursday afternoon one made up mostly of weekly commuters. People have been priced off morning/afternoon "peak" services on such journeys to the extent that those times can be really quite quiet these days.

 

[Djgr]

Often peak times today means Saturday afternoon. (e.g., Merseyrail Liverpool to Chester and v.v.-rammed)

 

[JonathanH]

Many routes have a "Saturday morning problem", particularly towards London and other major destinations, at which time trains are overloaded

 

[Wallsendmag]

Certainly apllied to the train from Seaton Delaval that I stood on yesterday to Newcastle. Also when Newcastle play at home apparently.

 

[Mag_seven]

Many routes have a "Saturday morning problem", particularly towards London and other major destinations, at which time trains are overloaded

So perhaps fares should be increased during these periods?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So perhaps fares should be increased during these periods?

No doubt the LNER scheme will also do this. Outside the Oval area the WMT Off Peak/Super Off Peak split also does it, slightly nudging people to travel later or do a day trip on Sunday instead.

 

[Wallsendmag]

No doubt the LNER scheme will also do this. Outside the Oval area the WMT Off Peak/Super Off Peak split also does it, slightly nudging people to travel later or do a day trip on Sunday instead.

It has done for at least the last 20 years although the Super Off Peak set a max Advance price.

 

[frankmoh]

Still busy in the morning and afternoons.

 

[Kilopylae]

I work from home most of the time but commute about once a week. It certainly "feels" like there is a peak on the Tube - all of the seats are usually gone on an inbound Metropolitan line train within three stops of the end of the line; there's a big rush across to the semi-fast at Harrow on the Hill; the trains get held at red signals a lot. There's also a full-and-standing evening peak around 5, at least in the centre, but things thin out quite fast towards the edges.

 

[Hadders]

I commute from Stevenage to London at least 4 days a week, sometimes 5.

In the mornings Monday and Friday into London are dead. Friday was already moving heavily that way pre-covid.
Tuesdays-Thursdays are much busier. Standing room only throughout the train on the 07:47 12-car class 700 (that's standing only upon arrival). On the 07:51 12-car 700 you'll get a seat right at the back of the train most days.

Anecdotally, you see more 'manual' type workers at 07:00 and more office type workers at 08:00. All the trains are just as busy though.

Coming home, all the trains are busy as the peak tends to be more spread out. Expect to stand on 12-car class 700s. Anecdotally, you see more 'manual' type workers at 07:00 and more office type workers at 08:00. All the trains are just as busy though.

The LNER trains are the interesting ones. I don't see them at Stevenage in the morning as there aren't any making calls pre-09:00 but the 17:33 and 18:33 convey fresh air, even though they both call at Stevenage. On Tuesday and Wednesday this week I travelled on the 18:33 LNER departure from Kings Cross. On Tuesday there were just 14 passengers in coach C. On Wednesday there were 20 in coach C.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

Still running a reduced timetable compared with pre-COVID, SWR definitely has peaks on Tuesdays to Thursdays and much less so, though increasing, on Mondays and Fridays. Notably, "peaky" trouble finding a seat carries on longer into the evenings now that some routes have half the service they used to have. Has any TOC thought about removing peaks just on Mondays and Fridays I wonder? TfL's off-peak Fridays was quite an expensive trial, I think.

 

[SteveHFC]

The peaks are definitely still a thing on Thameslink between Bedford and London, less so on Friday mornings. It's got noticably busier over the two years I have been commuting between Leagrave and Blackfriars.

 

[kentrailman]

Some of the "peak" south eastern high speed services from Ashford to London are the only ones of the day that usually have seats free ... because of the fare differential. I tend to try to catch the best ones ( my secret which ones ) to avoid the crowds which seem to affect most other services on this line all day ... indeed I am standing on one in a crowded door vestibule right now at 1400 !

 

[Wallsendmag]

An awful lot of businesses are specifying more days in the office again

 

[voyagerdude220]

I suspect how crowded trains are at Peak and Off Peak times varies a lot between Intercity and your more local train services.

For example when I'm selling train tickets to passengers travelling to/from London, they understandably often travel into London on the first Off Peak train of the day and return out of London either on the last Off Peak train before the afternoon/evening restrictions come into place or the very first Off Peak train afterwards.

I suspect these very first morning Off Peak or evening very first Off Peak trains are much busier than some Avanti peak time trains.

 

[blueberry11]

Of course, the reason why Saturdays are busy is because no one has school or office work. For some, that is there only free time. Its also because passengers can travel all day weekend with an off-peak train ticket and not to worry about departing London before 1600 or after 1900.

 

[nanstallon]

The TOCs have been steadily extending the definition of peak hours travel in order to take more money off their customers. Let's go back to the days when a ticket was a ticket without complicating the issue. It would also stop a lot of prosecutions (or exploitative settlements) for honest mistakes. Scotland has shown the way, although retaining such restrictions with their rover tickets.

 

[styles]

Yes, still relevant I think.

I suppose we ought to think about peak and off peak in their literal terms rather than trying to think too much about the causes of the peaks. On the Hope Valley Line it could be considered that the early Saturday/Sunday morning trains are peak given the number of walkers etc boarding for example; nothing to do with work though.

But as others have alluded to - from a work point of view, on-site and hybrid working is steadily on the return. I know that if I take a train getting to Waverley before 9am on a weekday it's much busier than one getting in for 11am for example. Some roles also just can't be done from home, e.g. nurses, builders, cafe work, retail, etc.

Sometimes peaks are temporary, e.g. events like the Fringe/Edinburgh Festival season. Without dynamic pricing, which I would expect to be unpopular, there's not a great deal to manage that though!

 

[CyrusWuff]

The TOCs have been steadily extending the definition of peak hours travel in order to take more money off their customers. Let's go back to the days when a ticket was a ticket without complicating the issue. It would also stop a lot of prosecutions (or exploitative settlements) for honest mistakes. Scotland has shown the way, although retaining such restrictions with their rover tickets.

Traditionally, in the former Network SouthEast area, there were two basic restrictions for Cheap Day Returns and Off-Peak Day Travelcards:

• B1: Not valid on trains scheduled to depart before 0930 Mondays to Fridays (valid at any time at weekends and on public holidays.)
• C4: Not valid on trains scheduled to arrive at London Terminals or Kensington Olympia before 1000 Mondays to Fridays (valid at any time at weekends and on public holidays.)

In both cases, there was a list of easements allowing earlier travel where frequencies warranted it.

 

[nanstallon]

Traditionally, in the former Network SouthEast area, there were two basic restrictions for Cheap Day Returns and Off-Peak Day Travelcards:

• B1: Not valid on trains scheduled to depart before 0930 Mondays to Fridays (valid at any time at weekends and on public holidays.)
• C4: Not valid on trains scheduled to arrive at London Terminals or Kensington Olympia before 1000 Mondays to Fridays (valid at any time at weekends and on public holidays.)

In both cases, there was a list of easements allowing earlier travel where frequencies warranted it.

In my case, a train leaves my local station at 08.59. Some destinations get an off peak fare, some don't, when I'm booking on line. Even with the former I worry about whether I'll get charged with fare evasion once I get on the train.

 

[Hadders]

In my case, a train leaves my local station at 08.59. Some destinations get an off peak fare, some don't, when I'm booking on line. Even with the former I worry about whether I'll get charged with fare evasion once I get on the train.

Be careful what you wish for because simplification almost always results in fares increasing.

Perhaps the restrictions from your local station should be changed to 'Not valid before 09:30' Maybe an afternoon peak restriction between 16:00 and 19:00 could be added for further simplification.

 

[Jimini]

Be careful what you wish for because simplification almost always results in fares increasing.

Perhaps the restrictions from your local station should be changed to 'Not valid before 09:30' Maybe an afternoon peak restriction between 16:00 and 19:00 could be added for further simplification.

GWR's loose interpretation of 0600-0900 and 1600-1900 has vexed me for a while. GWR just love to push the peak / off peak limits! 1900, 1904 and 1906 are all peak services now, I believe

As an aside though, fair play to Avanti ditching the Friday peak times (both ways). Credit where credit's due. Spread the load!

 

[TUC]

Judging by how full Sowerby Bridge car park and surrounding streets have again become, as opposed to two or three years ago, there has been a return to office working and peak time travel.