Southeastern metro fleet replacement/improvement

[D365]

As mentioned, the AT200 would be more appropriate. However, this has not come with level boarding (the only AT200s currently in existence are the 385s), so would require a new bodyshell design. I'd say that's bespoke.

Most, if not all of the upcoming rolling stock tenders stipulate at least partial level boarding. A bespoke requirement it is not.

 

[165009]

Morning, does anyone know the status/whereabouts of 465045 and 466020 please? They're never on RTT when I search

 

[UHB595]

Morning, does anyone know the status/whereabouts of 465045 and 466020 please? They're never on RTT when I search

Maze Hill on the Cannon Street Loop you can search up the unit numbers on RTT

 

[165009]

Yep, neither unit returns any results which has been the same every time I've checked them for the past few weeks, which made me think they've been withdrawn

 

[brad465]

Morning, does anyone know the status/whereabouts of 465045 and 466020 please? They're never on RTT when I search

Yep, neither unit returns any results which has been the same every time I've checked them for the past few weeks, which made me think they've been withdrawn

According to an internal source in an enthusiast group, 466020 is earmarked for being stripped for spares in the near future, though no date has yet been determined for this.

 

[165009]

According to an internal source in an enthusiast group, 466020 is earmarked for being stripped for spares in the near future, though no date has yet been determined for this.

Thanks Brad, don't suppose you've any idea on which depot and if it's visible?

 

[vuzzeho]

Most, if not all of the upcoming rolling stock tenders stipulate at least partial level boarding. A bespoke requirement it is not.

Yes, but I was saying that Hitachi's offering does not have level boarding as part of the off the shelf design (385s). So, it would be a bespoke new version of the AT200, not an off the shelf one.

 

[SEtrains]

Thanks Brad, don't suppose you've any idea on which depot and if it's visible?

Trainlogger has it last sighted as at Slade Green depot in July

 

[Waterlemon]

Steve White said today we could expect a decision to be announced in the first half of next year with introduction likely to be around 2029/2030.

 

[Snow1964]

Steve White said today we could expect a decision to be announced in the first half of next year with introduction likely to be around 2029/2030.

For a tender that started nearly 2 years ago, had an announced shortlist of 5 bidders 11 months ago. By now not really being any more precise than announcing sometime in 1.5 to 7.5 months is exceedingly vague.

Introduction nearer 6-7 years after starting the process is worryingly slow unless get something exceptional at end of process, rather than average or adequate.

Anyway good to know it's progressing, even if at snail pace.

 

[ScotGG]

Add in the customary delays and best case scenario 2033/34 for full introduction?

 

[Stephen42]

For a tender that started nearly 2 years ago, had an announced shortlist of 5 bidders 11 months ago. By now not really being any more precise than announcing sometime in 1.5 to 7.5 months is exceedingly vague.

Introduction nearer 6-7 years after starting the process is worryingly slow unless get something exceptional at end of process, rather than average or adequate.

Anyway good to know it's progressing, even if at snail pace.

The first procurement notice was three years ago. Announcing a precise timeline when the business case requires external approval would be unwise, forcing a decision on a particular timeline is a good way to make a no more likely. Approval processes can also have unknown length, requests for further information before a decision can be made etc.

The shortlist of bidders was 18 months ago, this was also when the full tender information was sent out. I'd guess that compiling, producing and reviewing the requirements or external considerations factored into the timing of that rather than the shortlisting process itself. Most of the lessons learnt from previous fleet introductions across the industry boil down to "having X specified or factored into the contract would have made the introduction better". There are parts around managing when the contract needs altering or working around, but it's a lot easier if the contract doesn't need changing in the first place.

The business case would also need to consider how the fleet would be introduced. Are any depot works required? Are station/infrastructure changes needed? How are staff going to be trained? Do storage facilities need to be hired? How is the cross over of new and old fleet going to be managed at each point during introduction? The costs of all those plans need to be included so have to be known in detail.

I'd expect there's many people at Southeastern who could talk at length about the procurement progress and the amount of work gone into getting a good outcome. But disclosures about the procurement can open up the award to challenges and a 10 figure contract is well worth fighting over if there's any opportunity to do so. That means information in the public domain is going to be sparse and be stuff that all bidders have already been told.

 

[Geogregor]

The first procurement notice was three years ago. Announcing a precise timeline when the business case requires external approval would be unwise, forcing a decision on a particular timeline is a good way to make a no more likely. Approval processes can also have unknown length, requests for further information before a decision can be made etc.

The shortlist of bidders was 18 months ago, this was also when the full tender information was sent out. I'd guess that compiling, producing and reviewing the requirements or external considerations factored into the timing of that rather than the shortlisting process itself. Most of the lessons learnt from previous fleet introductions across the industry boil down to "having X specified or factored into the contract would have made the introduction better". There are parts around managing when the contract needs altering or working around, but it's a lot easier if the contract doesn't need changing in the first place.

The business case would also need to consider how the fleet would be introduced. Are any depot works required? Are station/infrastructure changes needed? How are staff going to be trained? Do storage facilities need to be hired? How is the cross over of new and old fleet going to be managed at each point during introduction? The costs of all those plans need to be included so have to be known in detail.

I'd expect there's many people at Southeastern who could talk at length about the procurement progress and the amount of work gone into getting a good outcome. But disclosures about the procurement can open up the award to challenges and a 10 figure contract is well worth fighting over if there's any opportunity to do so. That means information in the public domain is going to be sparse and be stuff that all bidders have already been told.

All valid points but it boils down to one major question. When will the DfT, and the treasury, be ready to give green light. Everything else is secondary.

 

[Snow1964]

All valid points but it boils down to one major question. When will the DfT, and the treasury, be ready to give green light. Everything else is secondary.

And it's a great shame that none of the MPs asked that question for today's Parliamentary transport questions (although they probably would not yet a conclusive answer)

 

[Bald Rick]

Let’s not forget that Steve White has been involved in selling trains, buying trains, and introducing new trains into service before. He knows what he’s doing.

 

[Chris172]

I read on southeastern website that they are going to retrofit a toilet on the 707s. The press release was released in January 2025, have they started the retrofitting?

Southeastern Class 707 ‘City Beam’ trains to be fitted with customer toilets

Southeastern’s newest fleet of trains on its Metro routes will be retro-fitted with accessible customer toilets Part of Southeastern’s wider commitment to expanding access to customer toilets across the network

newsroom.southeasternrailway.co.uk

 

[brad465]

I read on southeastern website that they are going to retrofit a toilet on the 707s. The press release was released in January 2025, have they started the retrofitting?

Southeastern Class 707 ‘City Beam’ trains to be fitted with customer toilets

Southeastern’s newest fleet of trains on its Metro routes will be retro-fitted with accessible customer toilets Part of Southeastern’s wider commitment to expanding access to customer toilets across the network

newsroom.southeasternrailway.co.uk

Don't believe they've started yet. Steve White did reveal when the 376 refurbishment began (in response to someone asking about 707 toilets) that the work takes a while to design apparently. I also suspect they won't want 707s out of service on refurbishment at the same time 376s are going through their full refurb.

 

[GEC465]

With the first 376 unit refreshed 011 is the last one to receive the blue livery. Thus marking and end of the connex SE livery

 

[The_Train]

With the first 376 unit refreshed 011 is the last one to receive the blue livery. Thus marking and end of the connex SE livery

Wait, they are all now in the blue livery?

 

[GEC465]

Yep. All in blue now

 

[The_Train]

Yep. All in blue now

Thanks - was that programme done solely in 2025 or were some done last year?

 

[Phil R]

Thanks - was that programme done solely in 2025 or were some done last year?

All done this year, or rather will be when 376011 is out later this week. 36 in 34 weeks with a site change late on to boot. It's been an impressively executed project.

 

[brad465]

All done this year, or rather will be when 376011 is out later this week. 36 in 34 weeks with a site change late on to boot. It's been an impressively executed project.

Do we know roughly how long the interior part of the refurb is taking per unit?

 

[Chiltern006]

It’s a shame they haven’t done the roof, it looks quite odd in white

 

[NSEWonderer]

It’s a shame they haven’t done the roof, it looks quite odd in white

It's as purposeful as the door button area

 

[GEC465]

Do we know roughly how long the interior part of the refurb is taking per unit?

Usually first few units are the longest but probably a week and a half to 2 weeks I assume once it picks up. I do wonder if 011 will be the last (again) to be done

 

[RUK]

It’s a shame they haven’t done the roof, it looks quite odd in white

Perhaps it’s to help with not heating up so much since they don’t have air conditioning, as with London buses?

 

[ScotGG]

Makes sense but if that's the reason it achieves sod all. They're stifling with white roofs. God knows how bad without.

Worst train IMO for summer heat. The windows are useless. Plenty of other non air con stock can get a decent breeze going such as Networkers (ventilation balls help on some stock too) but the 376s windows are hopeless.

 

[Class 466]

Perhaps it’s to help with not heating up so much since they don’t have air conditioning, as with London buses?

Makes sense but if that's the reason it achieves sod all. They're stifling with white roofs. God knows how bad without.

Worst train IMO for summer heat. The windows are useless. Plenty of other non air con stock can get a decent breeze going such as Networkers (ventilation balls help on some stock too) but the 376s windows are hopeless.

it’s because the majority of this livery (like the 707s) is vinyl wrap rather than a repaint to save money. Not cost effective to repaint an area barely seen or noticed by most people.

 

[JonathanH]

It’s a shame they haven’t done the roof, it looks quite odd in white

Not cost effective to repaint an area barely seen or noticed by most people.

The white roof actually makes them look a bit sleeker than a dark roof anyway.