Southeastern metro fleet replacement/improvement

[brad465]

A Kingsbury drag is scheduled for tomorrow from Gillingham Depot. I'm guessing this will be more 466s that have been part-stripped:

Realtime Trains | 5Q66 1030 Gillingham E.M.U.D. to Kingsbury Emr Sidings | 13/11/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q66 1030 departure from Gillingham E.M.U.D. to Kingsbury Emr Sidings on 13/11/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[ScotGG]

Little new in that speech. On board battery has been mentioned for replacement fleet for years.

Still no closer to the treasury/DfT giving the green light.

The top end of the range for new stock put out more than three years ago only covers like for like Networker replacement so no chance of a Greater Anglia and removing other classes unless they seek a big drop in overall train numbers, which will go down well.

And aside from that Greater Anglia actually staff many stations when a DOO service unlike the South Eastern Metro network...

Or have staff on many other train services.

Metro has neither most of the time.

 

[D365]

Little new in that speech. On board battery has been mentioned for replacement fleet for years.

Still no closer to the treasury/DfT giving the green light.

The top end of the range for new stock put out more than three years ago only covers like for like Networker replacement so no chance of a Greater Anglia and removing other classes unless they seek a big drop in overall train numbers, which will go down well.

A renewal of the Southeastern Metro fleet would be more akin to the Class 701 programme. For better this time, we hope…

 

[Mikey C]

A renewal of the Southeastern Metro fleet would be more akin to the Class 701 programme. For better this time, we hope…

The 701 programme was far larger and more comprehensive, as it didn't just aim to replace the old 455s, it also replaced the midlife 458s and the almost new 707s.

An equivalent programme for Southeastern would also replace the 376s and 707s.

 

[brad465]

Are there any rolling stock orders/designs that Southeastern could either get "off the shelf", or are very similar to what Southeastern want? A completely bespoke design will slow down the construction and testing.

 

[The_Train]

A Kingsbury drag is scheduled for tomorrow from Gillingham Depot. I'm guessing this will be more 466s that have been part-stripped:

Realtime Trains | 5Q66 1030 Gillingham E.M.U.D. to Kingsbury Emr Sidings | 13/11/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q66 1030 departure from Gillingham E.M.U.D. to Kingsbury Emr Sidings on 13/11/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

This is on the move - any sticky digits yet?

 

[brad465]

This is on the move - any sticky digits yet?

Yes it's 466002 and 466036, dragged by 37800.

 

[The_Train]

Yes it's 466002 and 466036, dragged by 37800.

Thanks Brad

 

[Roger B]

Yes it's 466002 and 466036, dragged by 37800.

When the 466s were being introduced in the mid 90s, 466036 was used by Slade Green as a Christmas Tree for spare parts to keep other 466s going. It was my last 466 for sight - knowing what it was being used for, I I went to Slade Green, and the foreman very kindly let me peek my head round the shed door to eyeball it - in August '96. Happy days

 

[Wheelspinz]

Something that's occurred to me, with Doncaster Wabtec winding down, will the MetCam units have to be withdrawn when the next C6s are otherwise due? I doubt anyone else will take on the work for what would probably only be 1-2 rounds of work per unit left. If this is the case, unless Southeastern can find other rolling stock somewhere, there could be a few years with a notable shortage while the replacement order (that still hasn't been confirmed), is delivered.

I very much doubt the MetCam/GEC units will even get to that point, so there will not be any more C6 overhauls on those units. The last C6's of the MetCam/GEC units staying in service for the time being were 2023 to 2025 (908 the last) and the standard periodicity is every 8 years. These units wont still be in service in 2031 so no more C6's.

 

[Geogregor]

These units wont still be in service in 2031 so no more C6's.

I wouldn't be so sure...

 

[vuzzeho]

Are there any rolling stock orders/designs that Southeastern could either get "off the shelf", or are very similar to what Southeastern want? A completely bespoke design will slow down the construction and testing.

I don't think so. The Aventras have been replaced - the 701s and extra 345s are probably the last ones that will be built. I think the Desiro City is also done - we've now got the Verve. Stadler haven't really built anything appropriate for SE yet. I suppose the Civity is an option - though it hasn't had 3rd rail before, and it doesn't have level boarding, so it would be a fully bespoke design. Hitachi don't have anything done already for this.

 

[Doomotron]

Hitachi don't have anything done already for this.

But they do offer the AT100, which is pretty much exactly what's needed.

 

[Class 466]

. Stadler haven't really built anything appropriate for SE yet.

the 777s are Third Rail commuter units…

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

But they do offer the AT100, which is pretty much exactly what's needed.

It’s not. That’s pretty much equivalent to the 555s on TW Metro. The AT200 would be perfect, I think.

 

[D365]

It’s not. That’s pretty much equivalent to the 555s on TW Metro.

Or the aforementioned Class 777

But yes, I agree, I expect that Hitachi will be offering an AT200 with [at least partial] level boarding for all of the ongoing tenders.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Or the aforementioned Class 777

I don’t know, if you look at the SRT AT100 for comparison, it looks almost light rail/DLR B23-esque.

 

[brad465]

Whatever fleet is ordered, I think they should have two configurations: one for metro routes, another comparable to a 375 interior and put on routes the 465/9s were refurbished to do. Routes like the Maidstone East line, Chatham Mainline and Tunbridge Wells need a comfy interior but also good acceleration to manage frequent calling patterns that still exist. If SE ordered enough, these would allow 377s to be returned to Southern.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Whatever fleet is ordered, I think they should have two configurations: one for metro routes, another comparable to a 375 interior and put on routes the 465/9s were refurbished to do. Routes like the Maidstone East line, Chatham Mainline and Tunbridge Wells need a comfy interior but also good acceleration to manage frequent calling patterns that still exist. If SE ordered enough, these would allow 377s to be returned to Southern.

Tunbridge Wells terminating services really don’t need “a comfy interior.” Not only is it just under an hour to London Bridge, there are already two Hastings 375s each hour duplicating the route.

 

[JonathanH]

Whatever fleet is ordered, I think they should have two configurations: one for metro routes, another comparable to a 375 interior and put on routes the 465/9s were refurbished to do. Routes like the Maidstone East line, Chatham Mainline and Tunbridge Wells need a comfy interior but also good acceleration to manage frequent calling patterns that still exist. If SE ordered enough, these would allow 377s to be returned to Southern.

That really depends on whether it is a whole fleet replacement, whole metro fleet replacement, or whole Networker fleet replacement.

Although Networkers go to Tunbridge Wells, the influx of 377s means that the other routes don't need to be part of the fleet replacement. I know that 707s aren't currently cleared for Tunbridge Wells, but given toilets and clearance, there is no real reason why they couldn't be the new 'Weald' units with the new stock backfilling. Then the new stock only has to have one type of interior.

The mere fact that 377s have been released from Southern suggests that there aren't any imminent plans for a further increase in Southern rolling stock over that gained by the 379 > 387 > 377 cascade.

 

[brad465]

The mere fact that 377s have been released from Southern suggests that there aren't any imminent plans for a further increase in Southern rolling stock over that gained by the 379 > 387 > 377 cascade.

Not now, but in 5-6 years time when this fleet should be being rolled out...

 

[Mattplans]

Is there a plan to do this "Greater Anglia" any time soon? Does it usually take this long? Or is the nationalised 'joined up' railway we've been waiting to see the benefits of hard at work? Initial press release in May 2024 and no substantive news released so far. We already knew he wanted batteries and ramps on the train.

 

[Doomotron]

It’s not. That’s pretty much equivalent to the 555s on TW Metro. The AT200 would be perfect, I think.

I think the AT100s are a half-way point really. The AT200s are the equivalents of the Electrostars. They're a viable option, but would be much more suited to the current 465/9 work than the general Metro work.

 

[JonathanH]

The AT200s are the equivalents of the Electrostars. They're a viable option, but would be much more suited to the current 465/9 work than the general Metro work.

They would need to be shrunk in length for use on Southeastern, relative to their class 385 incarnation, but at any length, a train with the features of a class 385 doesn't strike me as what is needed for pure metro work.

 

[Doomotron]

They would need to be shrunk in length for use on Southeastern, relative to their class 385 incarnation, but at any length, a train with the features of a class 385 doesn't strike me as what is needed for pure metro work.

I'm sure Hitachi would offer a 20m version, although as you say it wouldn't work for metro anyway. That said, there could be a combined order of AT100s for metro and a limited number of AT200s for 465/9 work. It probably wouldn't make sense financially though.

 

[Tester]

Tunbridge Wells terminating services really don’t need “a comfy interior.” Not only is it just under an hour to London Bridge, there are already two Hastings 375s each hour duplicating the route.

['Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells' writes to the Telegraph to say otherwise]

 

[Snow1964]

Is there a plan to do this "Greater Anglia" any time soon? Does it usually take this long? Or is the nationalised 'joined up' railway we've been waiting to see the benefits of hard at work? Initial press release in May 2024 and no substantive news released so far. We already knew he wanted batteries and ramps on the train.

It's certainly not a replacement everything plan. This is what the DfT procurement says with an estimated contract start date of July 2025

Supply of replacement new Rolling Stock for Southeastern, of between 350 and 640 vehicles

So basically dates have slipped and number of vehicles being replaced is vague (clearly a minimum with options to nearly double that number), so how many actually get replaced within next decade is anyone's guess.

DfT and associated bodies listing of future commercial contracts (commercial pipeline) - GOV.UK

www.gov.uk

 

[andyjhatton]

Do we actually know what's being replaced?

The Networkers will obviously have to go.
I presume the 707 will stay.
What about the Electrostars 375/6/7 ?

 

[Snow1964]

Do we actually know what's being replaced?

The Networkers will obviously have to go.
I presume the 707 will stay.
What about the Electrostars 375/6/7 ?

I think you need to think of it in 2 batches, roughly replacements in 2029-2033 and then another batch of replacements about 2040 onwards.

I would be putting Electrostars in second batch, and probably not going to be discussed for another decade.

 

[vuzzeho]

But they do offer the AT100, which is pretty much exactly what's needed.

As mentioned, the AT200 would be more appropriate. However, this has not come with level boarding (the only AT200s currently in existence are the 385s), so would require a new bodyshell design. I'd say that's bespoke.

the 777s are Third Rail commuter units…

Yeah fair enough. With a speed increase these could work, I guess.