Agree, but standardise on Orpington Ramsden Estate for both routes (and R4?)
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London Buses Discussion
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Transport UK have been fiddling with their LED displays alot recently. The Enviro100EVs on the G1 had the destination display on the right hand side instead of the left
The 196 looks really compressed and unprofessional
Short answer: No.
Version 2.6 of the Bus Vehicle Specification (applicable from April 2025) requires digital blinds, though the first contracts on which that applies aren't due to start until 30th May 2026 (routes E9 and E10.)
How come ? The LED displays (ilke all electronic displays) in my opinion have too much glare
Snow1964
Established Member
The guidance was weak, and some operators were virtually filling the screen using every pixel to the edge.
Fine if the display is tight next to the glass and not bigger, but some were set back or the frame of glass too small for the screen, and the edges of the words were not visible.
From memory the disability regs specify minimum size for numerals and text, but there is no maximum size for the display.
There are far too many buses being put into service with faulty smart blinds that fail to show correct destination or route number (on front, side and back). Clearly these are nowadays unreliable and slow to repair. I am guessing this obsolete technology is becoming difficult to keep in good health.
NewPower work on Metroline's Metrodeckers is now official. To all intents and purposes much of the original chassis will be replaced.
Mikey C
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I guess it was worthwhile for both parties to do this, as it's not as if there are loads of other electric Metrodeckers out there to convert!
Pretty damning on Optare/Switch that they are having to be drastically rebuilt. No wonder nobody else bought them.
Go-Ahead may have some Metrodeckers available if Metroline want some more
Dwarfer1979
Member
The weakness of the Optare electric designs was always range. From the start Optare were adamant that the way to go was keep it light and sacrifice range which clearly wasn't what UK operators want - it was always pretty clear from early on that range was one of the most important factors so you could slot electric buses onto diesel workings with minimal adjustment. Optare were so fixated on this strategy that they refused to take up the extra weight allowance for electric heavy vehicles that existed, I think the maximum all up weight for a 2-axle electric vehicle was increased from 18t to 19t to allow for the need for more batteries to give more range and Optare were very public about refusing the utilise. As such I suspect that to get the extra range and bigger battery capacity that the operator wants much of the bus has to be rebuilt to be capable of taking the extra weight that it wasn't originally designed for - rather than it being an indication of poor build quality, it might be but it isn't a problem I have heard of for Optares of this age and it isn't the only possible reason for the extent of the rebuild, though it does at the least highlight the weakness of the original design concept Optare stuck to.
Mark L
Member
The document is the new vehicle specification - it’s not retrospective so won’t apply to refurbs of existing buses.
aswilliamsuk
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What this does beg the question, is who else has ordered NewPower conversions.
My tally (as I far as I can recall!) is:
First Group - 59 (StreetDecks now 71001-59)
Go North West - 1 (StreetDeck 2201, ex-3501)
Rotala - 1 (StreetDeck 40725)
Arriva Midlands - 1 (StreetDeck 4600, hasn't reappeared but understood to have gone for conversion)
NewPower say "50 plus" for this year (pretty much that likely includes all the above), so 64 next year is 28 MetroDeckers for Metroline... and what else, I wonder? First have also ordered 30 StreetDeck Repowers from KleanDrive, which I can only assume will include the 27 for West of England.
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Snow1964
Established Member
Does the First Group include the 37 London ones, ex-RAPT, ex Tower Transit originally for routes 23 & C3, but nowadays on 23, 31, 295.
There are rumours of replacements being ordered to replace them by end of their 7 year lease (they are roughly 5.2 years old), if they are being replaced presumably they will become leaseco problem.
aswilliamsuk
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No - the 62 listed above are all StreetDeck repowers (the First examples now numbered 71001-59, GNW 2201 (ex-3501), Rotala 40725 and Arriva Midlands 4600 (which has been away for some time and expected to be Repowered, but not seen yet).
citybus2500
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Lothian open toppers?
aswilliamsuk
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Ah, of course - weren't they originally planned to be done by someone else, before switched to NewPower?
Mikey C
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If Newpower want to do non Wright products, then the Volvo B5LH repower market (whether Wright or MCV bodied) would be a much larger one to target, as there are several hundred in London alone.
Snow1964
Established Member
Reported elsewhere that route 7 tender has just been announced (retained by Metroline), with new electric buses. 7 years from 20th June 2026
So that appears to be end of their 20 hydrogen buses (WHD class) in London, unless they are reallocated to another route.
Will try and find a proper link later.
So that appears to be end of their 20 hydrogen buses (WHD class) in London, unless they are reallocated to another route.
Will try and find a proper link later.
aswilliamsuk
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Comments elsewhere suggest they are staying put at Metroline and will be used on another route.
aron2smith
Member
Glad I rode all of London's routes before this change really took hold. In 2022 to 2024, only a tiny number of routes had digital blinds like most buses outside London and they are a right pain to photograph!
What I find a retrograde stop is the Bus Vehicle Specification no longer requiring rear windows on the lower deck of a double decker, very useful to see if the next bus I want to catch is right behind. If windows cannot be fitted due to all the gubbins, can a camera plus screen inside the rear not be a cheap solution?
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
I've just seen the latest tender awards on http://www.lots.org.uk/ and once again, most are retained by the existing operator, the exceptions being the 208 (Metrobus to Stagecoach) and 300 (Docklands to Blue Triangle, both part of Go Ahead). Why are there very few transfers? Does the incumbent have some sort of in-built advantage, maybe some key operating details / costs not available to competitors? Is it because there are few competitors who have the garage capacity to take over additional routes? Can the incumbent save costs by operating existing buses, but anyone else will have to source new buses so its not like-for-like?
Just interested to understand why.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
I've just seen the latest tender awards on http://www.lots.org.uk/ and once again, most are retained by the existing operator, the exceptions being the 208 (Metrobus to Stagecoach) and 300 (Docklands to Blue Triangle, both part of Go Ahead). Why are there very few transfers? Does the incumbent have some sort of in-built advantage, maybe some key operating details / costs not available to competitors? Is it because there are few competitors who have the garage capacity to take over additional routes? Can the incumbent save costs by operating existing buses, but anyone else will have to source new buses so its not like-for-like?
Just interested to understand why.
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700007
Established Member
I've been told that they're mean to fully go on the 245 route which also operates out of the same garage and is already partially allocated these. There are 20 hydrogens and 17 buses needed for daily service on the 245 so works out quite nicely with three spares.
KleanBus only managed a solitary disastrous conversion before the contract was novated (is that the correct term?) to NewPower.
According to a Metroline employee on the Tangytango tender thread a company post confirms they'll move to route 245, which currently utilises hybrids (and the occasional Perivale-based WHD).
Drivers at London Transit which are based out of Westbourne Park are striking throughout November. It's odd that this dispute still hasn't been sorted especially considering others within the First Bus family have been resolved within London.
317 forever
Established Member
There has been a notable increase in routes not attracting rival bids from anyone, so just having bids from incumbents approved automatically.
700007
Established Member
MotCo it is effectively a mixture of everything you have said - plus more. Depends in the individual circumstances for each route but some routes it is down to lack of competition (depot geography plays a huge part here). Think Havering in the far East of London, which must be one of the most uncompetitive (is that a word?) areas in the London bus tendering system because only Stagecoach has depots in that borough. Between Romford and Rainham garages, they're effectively able to mop up most of the work probably on very steep prices because nobody else can feasibly bid. Go-Ahead bar the sheer volume of school work (that nobody else bids for I think) and the 5/N15 they have nothing else and probably would struggle to win anything else because bidding from a depot in Barking is not going to be anywhere near as cheap as one in Romford itself. Arriva can and does bid for small bits of work but their capacity is limited (in comparison to the competition) that they can only win so few routes.
Amongst many other things, it is definitely worth mentioning the fact we have lost quite a few companies over the last decade (Sullivan's, HCT Group, Transit Systems, Tellings Golden Miller, even First as a separate operator to RATP - ultimately means one less operator in the game) which would have definitely given the bigger operators a run for their money in some areas.
Amongst many other things, it is definitely worth mentioning the fact we have lost quite a few companies over the last decade (Sullivan's, HCT Group, Transit Systems, Tellings Golden Miller, even First as a separate operator to RATP - ultimately means one less operator in the game) which would have definitely given the bigger operators a run for their money in some areas.
Bishopstone
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Havering was very competitive territory. The 248, for example, has been with all four major operators – Capital Citybus (First); Blue Triangle (Go Ahead); Stagecoach, and now Arriva from Grays garage. But the exit of First from the London market and Go Ahead’s relocation to a garage further up the A13 has, as you say, reduced the competitive pressure, especially for routes in the east of the borough.
I don’t know whether Arriva bid for everything that comes up, or whether they’re selective – I’m surprised they find the 66 economic, as Grays to Romford is lots of dead running, and Grays to Leytonstone is a nightmare, traffic wise.
When the Roundabout routes in Orpington were launched in 1986, all routes were operated by Orpington Buses, which became part of Stagecoach in 1994. In 1995, all the routes (plus route 61) were won on retender by First Buses who didn't have a base in the area so had to set one up.
Is the issue that retenders are now on a route by route basis rather than a whole network, which means that a new entrant cannot easily set up a local base? Unless routes in the Havering are let as a job lot, we presumably will not be seeing any competitive tenders.