London Buses Discussion

[Goldfish62]

Quite a big batch of tender results announced yesterday.

Routes : 16, 104, 146, 208, 227, 300, 301, 336, P13
All except 227 getting new electric buses.

Route 16 is currently operated by LT (new bus for London, Boris Bus). This might be first tender award replacing them where they have been used for years (although those previously used on Superloop SL3 until its electric buses were ready are still parked up). Some of the fleet has also been moved around as routes and frequencies have been changed.

LOTS Home Page

www.lots.org.uk

I believe the 16 is the first route that had LTs specifically allocated as part of their roll-out to have them replaced upon tender.

The earliest ones will be 14 years old next year.

 

[MotCO]

Quite a big batch of tender results announced yesterday.

Routes : 16, 104, 146, 208, 227, 300, 301, 336, P13
All except 227 getting new electric buses.

Route 16 is currently operated by LT (new bus for London, Boris Bus). This might be first tender award replacing them where they have been used for years (although those previously used on Superloop SL3 until its electric buses were ready are still parked up). Some of the fleet has also been moved around as routes and frequencies have been changed.

LOTS Home Page

www.lots.org.uk

The only switch is Metrobus losing the 208 after one contract term, returning to Stagecoach.

 

[RUK]

The BYD single decker is already in service with UNO Bus - seen earlier:

Uno Bus 405 Oct25

UH De Haviland Campus Hatfield, Oct 2025

www.flickr.com

The front of the bus reminds me of a modernised version of the Northern Counties Paladin, with the way it juts out poutily, though not quite as bad-looking as that - I never really thought that the Paladin was a good-looking bus.

 

[PGAT]

The only switch is Metrobus losing the 208 after one contract term, returning to Stagecoach.

301 is also moving from Arriva to Stagecoach

 

[Snow1964]

I believe the 16 is the first route that had LTs specifically allocated as part of their roll-out to have them replaced upon tender.

The earliest ones will be 14 years old next year.

Are the refurbishments still happening, I think about three quarters (roughly 750 buses) have been done.

I know many had their wing mirrors replaced by cameras too, but last I heard around 400 had been done. Not sure if more are being altered.

I gather there are about 15 (ex route SL3) and another 20 (various operators) off the road or awaiting repair, so possibly down to about 960 active LTs out of original 1000

 

[citybus2500]

I believe the 16 is the first route that had LTs specifically allocated as part of their roll-out to have them replaced upon tender.

The earliest ones will be 14 years old next year.

The current 16 isn't the original 16. It is really the previous 332 re-numbered to 16. TfL have a habit of doing these renumberings!

 

[MotCO]

Are the refurbishments still happening, I think about three quarters (roughly 750 buses) have been done.

I know many had their wing mirrors replaced by cameras too, but last I heard around 400 had been done. Not sure if more are being altered.

I gather there are about 15 (ex route SL3) and another 20 (various operators) off the road or awaiting repair, so possibly down to about 960 active LTs out of original 1000

I think I read that LT7 has been withdrawn. Have any others been?

 

[Snow1964]

I think I read that LT7 has been withdrawn. Have any others been?

The short one (812?) was withdrawn after a crash

I think 7, 8, 11, 131, 141, 481 might also be withdrawn, or unserviceable for least a year.

 

[joieman]

The short one (812?) was withdrawn after a crash

Really?! Is it then tracking on Bustimes in error?

 

[Goldfish62]

Really?! Is it then tracking on Bustimes in error?

It's alive and well and took part in Imberbus back in August.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2025 ==

The current 16 isn't the original 16. It is really the previous 332 re-numbered to 16. TfL have a habit of doing these renumberings!

Bu it's still under the route 16 contract not the former 332 contract.

 

[astock5000]

Are the refurbishments still happening, I think about three quarters (roughly 750 buses) have been done.

I know many had their wing mirrors replaced by cameras too, but last I heard around 400 had been done. Not sure if more are being altered.

Refurbishments are continuing but at a slower pace than prior to summer 2024. The number now complete is indeed likely to be a little over 750.

Around 440 were fitted with cameras between summer 2024 and spring this year, at which point the retrofitting work on LTs stopped. Other types in First's and Transport UK's fleets have been retrofitted since - this recently also included First's LT70. It's worth noting that no RATP / First or Go-Ahead LTs had been done prior to this, and there is little correlation to age (e.g. LT8 / 10 / 12-39 all retrofitted, whereas all from LT835 upwards appear to retain mirrors).

The short one (812?) was withdrawn after a crash

I think 7, 8, 11, 131, 141, 481 might also be withdrawn, or unserviceable for least a year.

LT7 / 45 were withdrawn due to accident damage in February this year and June 2022 respectively. LT174 was lost in a fire in May 2022, having already been stored awaiting parts for around two years.

LT11 was the bus converted to electric by Equipmake as a trial and last saw use in December 2023, but is still in the fleet.

LT131 was away at a Wrightbus facility for some time, then transferred to Stagecoach but apparently unused and stored along with the ex-SL3 allocation which it would otherwise have presumably been part of.

LT8 / 141, along with ST812, are in active use, while LT481 has been off the road long-term (some others in that category being LT9 / 145 / 368 / 614 / 773 / 864 / 896 while LT177 / 505 both recently returned).

 

[contrex]

The Jewish Chronicle is alleging that an Orthodox Jewish passenger was locked in a bus by a driver who said 'I don't like Jews'.

Orthodox man locked in London bus by driver who said 'I don't like Jews' - The Jewish Chronicle

David Abraham was allegedly accused of being a ‘Mossad agent’ after dropping his bank card on the bus

www.thejc.com

 

[Statto]

Refurbishments are continuing but at a slower pace than prior to summer 2024. The number now complete is indeed likely to be a little over 750.

Around 440 were fitted with cameras between summer 2024 and spring this year, at which point the retrofitting work on LTs stopped. Other types in First's and Transport UK's fleets have been retrofitted since - this recently also included First's LT70. It's worth noting that no RATP / First or Go-Ahead LTs had been done prior to this, and there is little correlation to age (e.g. LT8 / 10 / 12-39 all retrofitted, whereas all from LT835 upwards appear to retain mirrors).


LT7 / 45 were withdrawn due to accident damage in February this year and June 2022 respectively. LT174 was lost in a fire in May 2022, having already been stored awaiting parts for around two years.

LT11 was the bus converted to electric by Equipmake as a trial and last saw use in December 2023, but is still in the fleet.

LT131 was away at a Wrightbus facility for some time, then transferred to Stagecoach but apparently unused and stored along with the ex-SL3 allocation which it would otherwise have presumably been part of.

LT8 / 141, along with ST812, are in active use, while LT481 has been off the road long-term (some others in that category being LT9 / 145 / 368 / 614 / 773 / 864 / 896 while LT177 / 505 both recently returned).

That's a shame, LT7 was the one James May test drove for a segment in Top Gear, i can't believe the LTs are that old too, feels like 5 minutes ago when they were introduced.

 

[Snow1964]

That's a shame, LT7 was the one James May test drove for a segment in Top Gear, i can't believe the LTs are that old too, feels like 5 minutes ago when they were introduced.

Of the 8 prototypes, three of them initially had 61 registration plates, before being changed to LTZxxxx series. UK now issuing 75 plates as it is around 14 years later.

 

[MotCO]

If I recall, there is a Mayoral pledge to remove all non-EV or hydrogen buses by 2030; therefore there will be close on 1,000 LTs to be removed from London fleets within the next 4 years (approx 15% of all buses), unless they are repowered. In order to avoid a cliff-edge, I assume that we will soon be seeing more withdrawals, presumably as existing LT-operated contracts come up for renewal.

 

[Snow1964]

If I recall, there is a Mayoral pledge to remove all non-EV or hydrogen buses by 2030; therefore there will be close on 1,000 LTs to be removed from London fleets within the next 4 years (approx 15% of all buses), unless they are repowered. In order to avoid a cliff-edge, I assume that we will soon be seeing more withdrawals, presumably as existing LT-operated contracts come up for renewal.

It is somewhere between a pledge and an unfunded aspiration. Mayor wants it (if Government donates money) by 2030, otherwise TfL thinks it will be 2032-2034.

The reality is there was a bulge in new buses 2016-2018 (as some of the rush to low floor and post congestion charge fleet of 2002-2005 were replaced). There are over 2000 non electric buses from 2017-2019 that would all need to be replaced early or repowered (TfL normally expects about 14 years life) if mayor goes for 2030.

Whilst TfL might accept couple of hundred being replaced early, I can't see them affording 2000+ early replacements. The bus fleet age profile, split by power source is table 2 on this report

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/fleet-annual-audit-report-31-march-2025.pdf

 

[stevieinselby]

It is somewhere between a pledge and an unfunded aspiration. Mayor wants it (if Government donates money) by 2030, otherwise TfL thinks it will be 2032-2034.

The reality is there was a bulge in new buses 2016-2018 (as some of the rush to low floor and post congestion charge fleet of 2002-2005 were replaced). There are over 2000 non electric buses from 2017-2019 that would all need to be replaced early or repowered (TfL normally expects about 14 years life) if mayor goes for 2030.

Whilst TfL might accept couple of hundred being replaced early, I can't see them affording 2000+ early replacements.

If the plan for banning the sale of new diesel buses in 2030 goes ahead, there could be a healthy market for second-hand diesel buses that still have a few years of life left in them around then from provincial operators who are not yet ready for the switch to electric. Not sure that that would wholly offset TfL's costs in widespread early replacement, but it might make the position slightly easier than it otherwise would have been.

 

[Mikey C]

If the plan for banning the sale of new diesel buses in 2030 goes ahead, there could be a healthy market for second-hand diesel buses that still have a few years of life left in them around then from provincial operators who are not yet ready for the switch to electric. Not sure that that would wholly offset TfL's costs in widespread early replacement, but it might make the position slightly easier than it otherwise would have been.

Nearly all the double deckers from this era will be hybrids. Are smaller operator able to cope with them?

 

[Snow1964]

If the plan for banning the sale of new diesel buses in 2030 goes ahead, there could be a healthy market for second-hand diesel buses that still have a few years of life left in them around then from provincial operators who are not yet ready for the switch to electric. Not sure that that would wholly offset TfL's costs in widespread early replacement, but it might make the position slightly easier than it otherwise would have been.

TfL operations received diesel single decks through to 2020, and these will be ok on secondhand market.

However TfL double decks from about 2013-2020 were nearly all full hybrid. There are token numbers of pure diesel deckers, and a few smart hybrids, but the vast majority of the non-electric double deck fleet are full hybrid. I think provincial operators would rather source used diesel buses from elsewhere (even from Ireland) rather than take the TfL spec hybrids.

 

[Jim James]

I think a thread like this was long needed. Perhaps we could talk about tenders as well.

Route branding is a great idea, for tourists and the ones who don't use the bus often. I'm surprised that they haven't considered this earlier.

Adds to cost and has few benefits, Hard to keep buses o the right route as well

 

[davews]

Of course selling off non-EV buses to somebody else does nothing for the carbon footprint, it just moves it elsewhere...

 

[Jim James]

Of course selling off non-EV buses to somebody else does nothing for the carbon footprint, it just moves it elsewhere...

Most old London buses are clapped out and more trouble then they are worth

 

[PGAT]

Most old London buses are clapped out and more trouble then they are worth

Indeed. I would also add that London work is far more intensive and plenty of buses could last another few years doing commercial work instead

 

[RUK]

Of course selling off non-EV buses to somebody else does nothing for the carbon footprint, it just moves it elsewhere...

Presumably those would be replacing older, more polluting buses.

 

[stevieinselby]

However TfL double decks from about 2013-2020 were nearly all full hybrid. There are token numbers of pure diesel deckers, and a few smart hybrids, but the vast majority of the non-electric double deck fleet are full hybrid. I think provincial operators would rather source used diesel buses from elsewhere (even from Ireland) rather than take the TfL spec hybrids.

Would there be a problem with provincial operators running hybrids? Do they need to be charged in the same way as full electric buses? Even if they do, the low-capacity batteries should be much easier to deal with and provide for.

Of course selling off non-EV buses to somebody else does nothing for the carbon footprint, it just moves it elsewhere...

It isn't just about the carbon footprint, but also the local air quality – but even if it was only about carbon, provincial buses are generally used a lot less than buses in London. If you've got a bus that is doing one school run in the morning and back in the afternoon, and then maybe pottering around between some rural villages and the nearby market town for a few hours during the day, then (a) the bus is doing a fraction of the work that it would be doing running for 18 hours a day in London, so its CO₂ output will be significantly reduced, and (2) local air quality is far less of an issue so it doesn't matter so much that the bus is still pumping out NOx – and even then, if it's replacing older Euro V buses then it might still be an improvement.

 

[MotCO]

If the plan for banning the sale of new diesel buses in 2030 goes ahead, there could be a healthy market for second-hand diesel buses that still have a few years of life left in them around then from provincial operators who are not yet ready for the switch to electric. Not sure that that would wholly offset TfL's costs in widespread early replacement, but it might make the position slightly easier than it otherwise would have been.

But presumably the cost of the tenders would increase as well, the purchase price of an EV being significantly higher than a diesel, offset maybe by lower maintenance costs. The other option is repowering diesel buses with batteries, which may be a cost effective solution, but I don't think any contracts have been let on the basis of repowered electric buses.

 

[PGAT]

With todays set of tender results Route 8 is also seeing new electrics phase out the routemasters.

 

[Bishopstone]

Regarding blinds: I spent some time in Romford this week, and noticed the 175 (Arriva) now displays North Romford Hillrise Estate, instead of just Hillrise Estate. Similarly, the 370 (also Arriva) now displays Romford Mercury Gardens, whereas many buses had been running around with the unhelpful final destination of Mercury Gardens.

Have TfL softened their stance on the use of qualifiers, or maybe Arriva have acted unilaterally from feedback?

 

[MotCO]

Regarding blinds: I spent some time in Romford this week, and noticed the 175 (Arriva) now displays North Romford Hillrise Estate, instead of just Hillrise Estate. Similarly, the 370 (also Arriva) now displays Romford Mercury Gardens, whereas many buses had been running around with the unhelpful final destination of Mercury Gardens.

Have TfL softened their stance on the use of qualifiers, or maybe Arriva have acted unilaterally from feedback?

I've often found it strange when destinations display some obscure, local location. For example, Ramsden Estate and Manor Circus are probably unknown to anyone who doesn't live there.

 

[Bishopstone]

I've often found it strange when destinations display some obscure, local location. For example, Ramsden Estate and Manor Circus are probably unknown to anyone who doesn't live there.

Where the route is a localised town service - which is the function of the R9 in Orpington - I think Ramsden Estate is fair enough, as the locals will know where that is. But if we're talking about the 353, which comes across from Croydon borough, then I agree that Orpington Ramsden Estate would be more useful. I can understand TfL's desire for standardisation, though.