• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Priv tickets in the late 1990s

Status
Not open for further replies.

Shimbleshanks

Established Member
Joined
2 Jan 2012
Messages
1,283
Location
Purley
I'm writing a novel set in the late 1990s. At that date, what 'priv' tickets would a fairly senior railwayman be entitled to and would they be able to obtain such tickets for family members, specifically a niece? This would be for a journey from London to Holyhead.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Peterthegreat

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2021
Messages
1,800
Location
South Yorkshire
I'm writing a novel set in the late 1990s. At that date, would 'priv' tickets would a fairly senior railwayman be entitled to and would they be able to obtain such tickets for family members, specifically a niece? This would be for a journey from London to Holyhead.
All railway employees would have been able to purchase privilege tickets for their partner/spouse and children/dependents. They would not be able to obtain tickets for other relatives including nieces.
Very senior staff would have unlimited travel for themselves with unlimited leisure travel for dependents. However these would still not be able to obtain reduced price tickets outside the immediate family.
 

Gloster

Veteran Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
13,024
Location
Up the creek
I think that a niece would only be permitted to have Priv. tickets if she was legally a dependent of the railwayman and permanently resident in his house, i.e. effectively only if adopted. There would be complications concerning qualifying age and whether or not in full-time education.
 

Shimbleshanks

Established Member
Joined
2 Jan 2012
Messages
1,283
Location
Purley
I think that a niece would only be permitted to have Priv. tickets if she was legally a dependent of the railwayman and permanently resident in his house, i.e. effectively only if adopted. There would be complications concerning qualifying age and whether or not in full-time education.
All railway employees would have been able to purchase privilege tickets for their partner/spouse and children/dependents. They would not be able to obtain tickets for other relatives including nieces.
Very senior staff would have unlimited travel for themselves with unlimited leisure travel for dependents. However these would still not be able to obtain reduced price tickets outside the immediate family.
How effectively would it have been policed though? If she was a niece on the father's side, she'd have the same surname. (And as they're Welsh, both sides of the family would have been called Jones anyway...) And what would have been the logistics of priv tickets then? Uncle would have applied for the ticket and then possibly posted it to her?
 

Dr Hoo

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2015
Messages
5,691
Location
Hope Valley
A ‘fairly senior railwayman’ should have been able to afford a ‘public’ ticket for their niece. Depending on the niece’s age some type of railcard may have been relevant.
 

Gloster

Veteran Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
13,024
Location
Up the creek
I think that by the 1990s tickets were no longer individual tickets but a card with boxes that were filled in with the date. He would have to send his whole card and it is quite likely that it would contain information that would make it obvious when inspected that it was not her card.

I think that they might still have been issuing individual tickets for specific situations, mostly work related, but this would involve him, and probably others, doing a lot of fiddling to get one for her. But this could be a dismissal level matter.

N.b. I left in 1987, so I only used the boxes for their first year or two and never rose high. I am unsure what the TOCs did.
 

Shimbleshanks

Established Member
Joined
2 Jan 2012
Messages
1,283
Location
Purley
Thanks for all the interesting replies. So I think it would be fairly unlikely that she would have easily have been able to get hold of a priv ticket. I'm trying to create a scenario in which someone living on the breadline in London finds the wherewithal to afford a rail trip back to Holyhead. Maybe a bit of overtime at work or some other financial windfall would be a better explanation.
 

Taunton

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
12,308
All railway employees would have been able to purchase privilege tickets for their partner/spouse and children/dependents. They would not be able to obtain tickets for other relatives including nieces.
Very senior staff would have unlimited travel for themselves with unlimited leisure travel for dependents. However these would still not be able to obtain reduced price tickets outside the immediate family.
University days classmate was son of one of these, and had been left in no doubt that any fiddling of the ticket, first class no less, was worse than being a Great Train Robber.

That didn't stop the ticket always seeming to be made out as Penzance to Thurso, to become essentially an all-line season. That was accepted by all.
 

Tester

Established Member
Joined
5 Jul 2020
Messages
1,719
Location
Watford
University days classmate was son of one of these, and had been left in no doubt that any fiddling of the ticket, first class no less, was worse than being a Great Train Robber.

That didn't stop the ticket always seeming to be made out as Penzance to Thurso, to become essentially an all-line season. That was accepted by all.
Wick to All Channel Ports was pretty good.
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
8,333
Location
Herts

That didn't stop the ticket always seeming to be made out as Penzance to Thurso, to become essentially an all-line season. That was accepted by all.



Often put into a clear plastic folder which more guards would nod and pass on - however gold braided TTI's would always ask for it to be removed and then punch it !

Certainly - in some areas , there was a "staff do not pay" culture when one asked for an on board priv ticket such as on pay trains !
 

WesternLancer

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
15,272
Thanks for all the interesting replies. So I think it would be fairly unlikely that she would have easily have been able to get hold of a priv ticket. I'm trying to create a scenario in which someone living on the breadline in London finds the wherewithal to afford a rail trip back to Holyhead. Maybe a bit of overtime at work or some other financial windfall would be a better explanation.
Well train fares were lower relative to income then so the wherewithal might have been more achievable. Tho perhaps less easy to access cheap advanced purchase fares than can be done now. But the did exist. Apex fares.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

How effectively would it have been policed though? If she was a niece on the father's side, she'd have the same surname. (And as they're Welsh, both sides of the family would have been called Jones anyway...) And what would have been the logistics of priv tickets then? Uncle would have applied for the ticket and then possibly posted it to her?
Priv tickets I don’t think involved applying for one for a particular journey. Not unless it was for overseas priv rate travel. Tho I’ll stand corrected.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

If I recall it correctly

my father in law (BR manager Grade job) had an unlimited travel pass for the London midland region first class. Then iirc boxes that could be used on chosen dates (so only needed if travel in other regions I assume). Then the card permitting tickets that could be bought at 75% off which you might use for a shorter journey or if boxes used up, tho iirc that was off the Anytime Fare (so that didn’t generate massively cheaper than off peak fare with a railcard discount).

Dependents in his family (wife plus 2 kids) didn’t get the LM regional pass but got the other facilities up to age leaving full time education.

My other half recalls that she had 30 boxes (first class) to use a year until leaving university.

But if you had well paid senior job you’d have been bonkers to get a relative a cheap priv fare they were not entitled to have and risk your job and perks.

You’d just have bought said relative a Saver Return. Wouldn’t have been that expensive.

I suspect someone here could tell you the fare to Holyhead in the late 1990s
 
Last edited:

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,692
Location
Nottingham
Priv tickets I don’t think involved applying for one for a particular journey. Not unless it was for overseas priv rate travel. Tho I’ll stand corrected.
That's my recollection too. At Management Staff grade 4 about this time I had a network "status pass" for unlimited first class travel, which became a taxable benefit at privatisation worth about £2k of income I think. I was in Research so the grading was different, but for comparison I recall a vacancy at MS4 for station manager Kings Cross. I think for higher grades the pass was still provided as a medal (mine was like a credit card). MS3 got a regional status pass, Standard only I think, and grades below that various numbers of boxes which each gave two consecutive days of travel. Those not entitled to a status pass could get a "priv season" between nearest stations to home and work, but I think had to pay for this. In BR days status passes could also be used for duty travel, and those not entitled to one could sign out a "duty pass". Graduate trainees got a two year all-network pass (Standard only) and encouragement to familiarise themselves with the railway in their own time. After privatisation travel facilities were for leisure and travel to work (at an ex-BR company) only.

Spouses and dependents only got boxes, the number varying by grade of the employee. Everyone entitled to any of this had to carry a photocard, and stringency extended to entrusting a future spouse's pass to the vicar to be handed over only on completion of the wedding (common law spouses passes were allowed but only after living together for several years). I was aware of people losing their entitlement for a period if caught cheating the system, typically by altering a used box from a 1 to a 4 or whatever. So I would agree it's very unlikely that an employee could obtain a staff travel facility for a non-dependent relative.

There were however the amazing blue Edmondson tickets that could be made out by hand for anyone from anywhere to anywhere. I got one issued only once, for a supplier representative we took on a test train for him to demonstrate one of the first GPS navigators (we broke it). I guess if a manager had control over issuing of these then there might be some scope for fraud.
 

Dr Hoo

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2015
Messages
5,691
Location
Hope Valley
Not involving rail staff privilege travel at all, but how about a job interview in Holyhead and the niece receiving travel expenses or similar?
 

WesternLancer

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
15,272
There were however the amazing blue Edmondson tickets that could be made out by hand for anyone from anywhere to anywhere. I got one issued only once, for a supplier representative we took on a test train for him to demonstrate one of the first GPS navigators (we broke it). I guess if a manager had control over issuing of these then there might be some scope for fraud.
Now you have reminded me of something!

I got given a small supply of these blue tickets to get to work in my first and only very junior BR job c 1986 to tide me over until my priv card and priv season were ready. Maybe 4 or 8 tickets. So 2 or 4 rtn journeys.

I recall that the season ticket gave the first 8 miles free then the remainder at 75% off I think. Probably 75% off the public season ticket rate.
 

Gloster

Veteran Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
13,024
Location
Up the creek
As I have mentioned before, around 1983 I did not use all of my allocation of priv. tickets one year (the only time it happened) and as a joke applied for one from Rodwell to Crowden (closed 1952 and 1957, respectively): it was issued.

Going back to the original purpose of the thread, I can’t see how a relative could be supplied with a priv. ticket without a considerable risk of the user being stopped and possibly questioned, and a risk to the member of staff of facing disciplinary action. Even if the purchaser could trust the traveller to keep schtum, buying a priv. rate ticket over the counter and handing it over would risk them being stopped en route; there could still be further investigation to find the purchaser.

As said, I left the railway in 1987 so I don’t know if inspection practices tightened up after privatisation. On BR I suspect that booking office staff would probably want to see the card of someone they didn’t know to check their entitlement, but once you had the ticket, inspections would probably be much slacker, but you could still meet some who were much more thorough. I knew someone who caught a very senior member of regional management without his pass on his commute, even though he knew who he was.
 

Tester

Established Member
Joined
5 Jul 2020
Messages
1,719
Location
Watford
I recall that the season ticket gave the first 8 miles free then the remainder at 75% off I think. Probably 75% off the public season ticket rate.
12 miles in the London area, which went up to 40 miles some time before 1988, when I had a not much fun commute from Harrow to East Croydon/Swanley.
 

Rescars

Established Member
Joined
25 May 2021
Messages
2,566
Location
Surrey
That's my recollection too. At Management Staff grade 4 about this time I had a network "status pass" for unlimited first class travel, which became a taxable benefit at privatisation worth about £2k of income I think. I was in Research so the grading was different, but for comparison I recall a vacancy at MS4 for station manager Kings Cross. I think for higher grades the pass was still provided as a medal (mine was like a credit card). MS3 got a regional status pass, Standard only I think, and grades below that various numbers of boxes which each gave two consecutive days of travel. Those not entitled to a status pass could get a "priv season" between nearest stations to home and work, but I think had to pay for this. In BR days status passes could also be used for duty travel, and those not entitled to one could sign out a "duty pass". Graduate trainees got a two year all-network pass (Standard only) and encouragement to familiarise themselves with the railway in their own time. After privatisation travel facilities were for leisure and travel to work (at an ex-BR company) only.
In the 1980's I recall these regional and network passes being referred to as a "leather pass" - though they were just printed card. Does anyone know if this was an official description or obsolete terminology? And why "leather"? Had they been supplied in a special wallet in a previous era perhaps? Surely not hand-tooled on offcuts from the carriage works or something similar!
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
8,333
Location
Herts
Slightly off topic , but to do with priv passes. One of my old bosses (who rose to National Business Manager) , started as a clerical officer at BRB HQ at 222 Marylebone Road and his job was cataloguing old senior officer medallions , which had been sent in for replacement by new standard BR medallions.

Many of these were pre 1948 , and rather interesting he said , but they were sent off somewhere for destruction - possibly melted down. Shame perhaps that the retired senior officers were not allowed to retain them for sentimental reasons, in which case many would now be available on various auction sites , and in museums perhaps !
 

Hassocks5489

Member
Joined
2 Feb 2014
Messages
256
Location
Hove, Sunny Sussex by the Sea
<snip>

I suspect someone here could tell you the fare to Holyhead in the late 1990s

I queried the database of my ticket collection to see if I could find any London–Holyhead tickets. These are all adult fares, so halve them for the child equivalent:

1991: Supersaver Return was £39.00 (knock off a pound for a Single)
1992: Saver Return was £54.00 (knock off a pound for a Single)
2000: Open Single was £81.00

For comparison, a Supersaver Single London–Bangor in 1994 was £38.50.

Might help as a rough guide to late-1990s fares.


Edit: I've found a 1996 National Fares Manual. Adult fares are as follows (again, halve them for a child):

Open Single £54.00
Saver Single £51.50
Supersaver Single £42.00
Apex Single £30.00
 

stuving

Member
Joined
26 Jan 2017
Messages
737
In the 1980's I recall these regional and network passes being referred to as a "leather pass" - though they were just printed card. Does anyone know if this was an official description or obsolete terminology? And why "leather"? Had they been supplied in a special wallet in a previous era perhaps? Surely not hand-tooled on offcuts from the carriage works or something similar!
Could that be the kind of leather fob with a metal badge coupled to it (closely or so it flaps on its own) like the branded ones car dealers add to car keys? In the USA these are commonly used for official badges, such as taxis or police. Here less so, though this is a London taxi driver's one. Did the railways once have similar metal badges of status or authority, then later when carried but not worn visibly they were attached to a leather fob, and the name stayed in use long after the badges?
1763140509932.jpeg
 

Elecman

Established Member
Joined
31 Dec 2013
Messages
3,578
Location
Lancashire
The senior officers depending on grade would have one of the Bronze , Silver. Or Gold medallion passes. My brother ended up with a Gold medallion and from memory it was held in a leather wallet
 

Gloster

Veteran Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
13,024
Location
Up the creek
That's a good one, I might use that.

Finding the return-half of ticket that conveniently happens to be of the very journey required is just the sort of plot point that would have me saying, “Oh, come on”, and reading the rest of the book with a certain amount of cynicism. What about the protagonist finding a wallet or purse on a bus or similar and keeping the cash; possibly returning the wallet to its owner with a note saying they found it empty if they feel they ought to return the family photos? Or even a bit of jewellery, which could be pawned: a girlfriend once found a fairly expensive bracelet; she handed it in to the police, despite being wary of the Met. as she was coloured (*). I think that that is a little less far fetched.

* - This was the 1980s. If you were black and went in to a police station to hand in found property you risked being arrested for its theft. (Not a joke.)
 

Shimbleshanks

Established Member
Joined
2 Jan 2012
Messages
1,283
Location
Purley
Finding the return-half of ticket that conveniently happens to be of the very journey required is just the sort of plot point that would have me saying, “Oh, come on”, and reading the rest of the book with a certain amount of cynicism. What about the protagonist finding a wallet or purse on a bus or similar and keeping the cash; possibly returning the wallet to its owner with a note saying they found it empty if they feel they ought to return the family photos? Or even a bit of jewellery, which could be pawned: a girlfriend once found a fairly expensive bracelet; she handed it in to the police, despite being wary of the Met. as she was coloured (*). I think that that is a little less far fetched.

* - This was the 1980s. If you were black and went in to a police station to hand in found property you risked being arrested for its theft. (Not a joke.)
If you'd nicked something, why would you then go to a police station and hand it in? Perhaps the little cogs of the policemen's brains might have got clogged up as they turned over the possibilities...

I suppose you might hang around at Euston station looking for dropped tickets; though the odds of finding one to Holyhead, as opposed to Manchester or Birmingham would be pretty small, I would have thought. I've decided that she has a small windfall from her unregistered, undeclared job. She's involved in an accident at the factory and the manager bribes her not to report it...
 

furnessvale

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2015
Messages
4,913
That didn't stop the ticket always seeming to be made out as Penzance to Thurso, to become essentially an all-line season. That was accepted by all.


Often put into a clear plastic folder which more guards would nod and pass on - however gold braided TTI's would always ask for it to be removed and then punch it !

Certainly - in some areas , there was a "staff do not pay" culture when one asked for an on board priv ticket such as on pay trains !
A friend of mine tells the tale of him witnessing someone refusing to take a priv ticket out of a plastic wallet.

After a short discussion the clippie punched the ticket right through the plastic!:D
 

Gloster

Veteran Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
13,024
Location
Up the creek
If you'd nicked something, why would you then go to a police station and hand it in? Perhaps the little cogs of the policemen's brains might have got clogged up as they turned over the possibilities...

I suppose you might hang around at Euston station looking for dropped tickets; though the odds of finding one to Holyhead, as opposed to Manchester or Birmingham would be pretty small, I would have thought. I've decided that she has a small windfall from her unregistered, undeclared job. She's involved in an accident at the factory and the manager bribes her not to report it...

No, it was my girlfriend who took the bracelet to the police because it looked it fairly valuable and possibly treasured, and because she was an honest person. With the wallet your protagonist keeps the money, but if she has a conscience about throwing away other personal items in the wallet, such as photos, she sends it to the owner with an anonymous note saying that was how she found it (with the money gone). Anyway, it is up to you whether she nicked it or found it in a bus, etc.
 

Route115?

Member
Joined
26 Jun 2021
Messages
376
Location
Ruislip
To summarise. prior to privatisation staff got the following:

75% discount on full fares after six months. This did not generally extend to discount fares. Shortly after joing the railway I bought a return ticket from Victoria to Gatwick for £1.50 with my still valid student rail card. A priv would have cost £1.50.

Free residential travel up to 12 miles later extended to 40 (as discussed above) also a 75% discount on a London Transport travelcard.

Up to the early 80s you got four free return tickets per year after a years service. This later changed to 10 'boxes' offering 48 hours free travel per year. I believe that this increased to 14 after 10 years service - I'm not sure. Management staff also got additional boxes.

Spouses and common law spouses got the same entitlement together with dependent children inclusing I think students. No buddy pases like the airlines, but I think that carers were entitled.

First Class travel started at MS1 (later raised to MS4).

You were entitles to a regional status pass after reaching a certain point on the MS2 scale (pay was incremental) or in any case MS3. You could choose your region.

You got an all station pass at MS4, and if London based an LUL pass at MS5.

Your family received a status pass if you reached Exective Grade, but only for leisure purposes.

On retirement you kept your entitlement to privs and also any skept tatus pass / LUL pass held, but the number of boxes was halved.

You were entitled to free European travel after a year (slightly different if you worked for a subsidiary like BREL). This was a FIP card (50% off public fares) plus one coupon per year per administration. (With Switzerland you had separate passes for each operator, later consolidated to SBB, BLS & Swiss Private.) Salaried staff got two coupons per year on NS Dutch Railways. There werer various entitlents for families by administration (BLS included spouse & dependents, SBB didn't for example). After retirement you got one pass within 15 months of retirent and a second within I think 39 months (can't really remember). A few railways (Benelux operators, + Italy I think) also issued passes to retired staff.

Active staff could use status passes for residential, duty & leisure, other staff travel was strictly leisure only (although I believe that privs could be used for up to two weeks residential travel).

It could be a sackable offence to buy a priv for someone who was not authorised (it certainly happened) and you had to show your staff ID card when using a priv so a friend using a priv could be found out.

I'm happy to be corrected on anything - my memory is hazy in places.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top