Received a witness statement receipt on Thameslink today

[c1.]

Hello, I have trawled the forum for advice but I am hoping some of you kind folks will be able to help a nervous girl out.

I was traveling from Brighton to St Pancras earlier today, but only had a ticket from Farringdon to St Pancras. When I spotted the revenue officer walking towards me, I tried to purchase a ticket as quickly as I could but he approached me before the transaction could go through.

I showed him my ticket and I began to apologise for my mistake, hoping I would receive a penalty fare. However, he cut me off and escalated the situation, saying something along the lines of: "I have been doing this job for many years now and I know your type of people, you are trying to get away with not paying."

As a woman of colour, at that point I did not want things to escalate further with this white revenue officer. Therefore, I complied with his instructions. He asked for my ID, which I handed over. He proceeded to ask me some questions, to which I responded "no comment" as I could not understand why he was asking me these questions, and then gave me a witness statement with a GTRE number. (By this point, the ticket transaction I was trying to make earlier went through so I did have a valid ticket purchased before the timestamp on his witness receipt.) He told me to wait for a letter in the post before walking away.

I know there is nothing for me to do until I receive this letter, but I am quite anxious and looking for support. I was ready to pay a penalty fare and own up to my mistake, but the officer did not give me a chance to explain before he profiled me and took my ID. While I wait for my letter, could I please ask for answers to the following:

• When I receive the letter, should I send back copies of my tickets to show I did technically have valid tickets?
• In my response to the letter, should I mention how the officer escalated the situation even though I was compliant and answering his questions?
• What can I do to avoid this leading to prosecution?

Thank you so much for your help... I am quite nervous and any advice would mean a lot to me. I really appreciate it. I will follow up when I receive the letter.

 

[jfollows]

Welcome to the forum, but you need to understand that boarding a train without holding a valid ticket is a criminal offence, for which you can be prosecuted and receive a criminal record.

In reality, GTR are usually willing to agree a settlement out of court instead of prosecuting, but it will be on their terms. They will examine any online ticket purchase history they can find.

Your best approach when you receive the letter will be to admit guilt and show contrition, but you are best advised to come back here when you receive the letter and show it here.

I do not believe that referring to “profiling” and the like will ultimately be in your best interest.

 

[AlterEgo]

I know there is nothing for me to do until I receive this letter, but I am quite anxious and looking for support. I was ready to pay a penalty fare and own up to my mistake, but the officer did not give me a chance to explain before he profiled me and took my ID.

What is there to explain? You were caught short faring, he knows that was what you were doing - as do hundreds of people every day - and you do not have an explanation that would have changed any of the outcomes here for you. You committed at least one criminal offence here. I'm unsure what "profiling" means in this context but getting written up to the prosecution office is the standard outcome for this offence,

While I wait for my letter, could I please ask for answers to the following:

• When I receive the letter, should I send back copies of my tickets to show I did technically have valid tickets?

It won't really help; what it will show is that you were short faring, and purchased a ticket when you saw the officer. What you did was a criminal offence under the Railway Bylaws, and there may be a case to argue you committed offences under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (the train company, if it does prosecute, will usually prosecute under the Bylaw, which is strict liability meaning no intent need be proven anyway).

• In my response to the letter, should I mention how the officer escalated the situation even though I was compliant and answering his questions?

No; this won't serve your interests.

• What can I do to avoid this leading to prosecution?

Be contrite and apologise, explain that you have learned your lesson, change your behaviour and stop evading fares. The company may as a matter of course audit all your ticket purchases, so if you do this habitually, they may well find out, and charge you for these, too. You can expect them to settle for an admin fee of £100 or so, plus the Anytime fare for the instance or instances they detect offending.

 

[c1.]

Welcome to the forum, but you need to understand that boarding a train without holding a valid ticket is a criminal offence, for which you can be prosecuted and receive a criminal record.

In reality, GTR are usually willing to agree a settlement out of court instead of prosecuting, but it will be on their terms. They will examine any online ticket purchase history they can find.

Your best approach when you receive the letter will be to admit guilt and show contrition, but you are best advised to come back here when you receive the letter and show it here.

I do not believe that referring to “profiling” and the like will ultimately be in your best interest.

Thank you, this is really helpful!

If you are aware, could you share how GTR are able to find online ticket purchase history please?

Many thanks again.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you, this is really helpful!

If you are aware, could you share how GTR are able to find online ticket purchase history please?

Many thanks again.

They will audit your accounts using your personal details, including those ingrained on the tickets you presented. They submit GDPR requests to ticket retailers to find all the other times you've done the same thing.

 

[jfollows]

A Penalty Fare is only normally issued in cases of “genuine mistakes” and clearly the inspector did not believe that was true in your case.

 

[c1.]

A Penalty Fare is only normally issued in cases of “genuine mistakes” and clearly the inspector did not believe that was true in your case.

Yes this is why I felt profiled, he just assumed I regularly violated the rules without listening to my side of the story at all.

 

[Western Gaffer]

Yes this is why I felt profiled, he just assumed I regularly violated the rules without listening to my side of the story at all.

But did he actually say 'regularly', or was he just reaching a (correct) conclusion that you were only paying when (about to be) challenged?

When I spotted the revenue officer walking towards me, I tried to purchase a ticket as quickly as I could...

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes this is why I felt profiled, he just assumed I regularly violated the rules without listening to my side of the story at all.

What is your side of the story? Be honest. You were short faring and got caught. It is so plainly obvious from what you did. You declined to answer the officer's questions which is your opportunity to give "your side of the story" (going no comment is however usually the wisest course of action as it means you don't incriminate yourself further).

You aren't the victim here though and have ended up with the same consequences as everyone else who attempts this low effort method of stealing from the railway. The quicker you accept this the easier writing the letter will be to ask for a settlement. The company sometimes writes in a few weeks but recently they have taken a few months; it can depend on the result of any audit they conduct. Either way there is little you can do until the letter arrives.

 

[jfollows]

The advice we give here is generally colour-blind, since most people don’t identify themselves as you have done, and we see many cases of people being reported as you were without knowing their colour. But of course I accept that as a white man I am biased, even though I’m married to someone who isn’t. I genuinely don’t think there’s mileage for you in trying to pursue this avenue, but what do I know?

 

[WesternLancer]

Hello, I have trawled the forum for advice but I am hoping some of you kind folks will be able to help a nervous girl out.

I was traveling from Brighton to St Pancras earlier today, but only had a ticket from Farringdon to St Pancras. When I spotted the revenue officer walking towards me, I tried to purchase a ticket as quickly as I could but he approached me before the transaction could go through.

I showed him my ticket and I began to apologise for my mistake, hoping I would receive a penalty fare. However, he cut me off and escalated the situation, saying something along the lines of: "I have been doing this job for many years now and I know your type of people, you are trying to get away with not paying."

As a woman of colour, at that point I did not want things to escalate further with this white revenue officer. Therefore, I complied with his instructions. He asked for my ID, which I handed over. He proceeded to ask me some questions, to which I responded "no comment" as I could not understand why he was asking me these questions, and then gave me a witness statement with a GTRE number. (By this point, the ticket transaction I was trying to make earlier went through so I did have a valid ticket purchased before the timestamp on his witness receipt.) He told me to wait for a letter in the post before walking away.

I know there is nothing for me to do until I receive this letter, but I am quite anxious and looking for support. I was ready to pay a penalty fare and own up to my mistake, but the officer did not give me a chance to explain before he profiled me and took my ID. While I wait for my letter, could I please ask for answers to the following:

• When I receive the letter, should I send back copies of my tickets to show I did technically have valid tickets?
• In my response to the letter, should I mention how the officer escalated the situation even though I was compliant and answering his questions?
• What can I do to avoid this leading to prosecution?

Thank you so much for your help... I am quite nervous and any advice would mean a lot to me. I really appreciate it. I will follow up when I receive the letter.

Here is some general information from a regular forum member that may be of help to you, which I have copied below:



Firstly, you committed a criminal offence by travelling with an invalid ticket and railway companies are entitled to prosecute you in the Magistrates Court if they want to. The good news is they will normally offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them and who haven't come to their attention before.

Next, what happens is the railway company will write to you. The letter will go to the address that you gave them / on any of your ID they checked so you need to be able to access hard copy post at that address as they often send things that way (but also check e-mail and spam). It is extremely important that you reply, and you'll only have a limited time to do so (often 14 days from the date on their communication).

When you receive the letter post a redacted copy of it in this thread, along with your draft reply and forum members will proof read it for you. You'll find lots of example letters you can use in this section of the forum but the reply basically needs to mention:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident and will not do this again
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the railway company’s administrative costs in dealing with the matter

The railway will probably offer you an out of court settlement. Expect to have to pay the cost of the fare for the journey you made at the full Anytime rate with no credit given for the invalid ticket you purchased. In addition they will charge an admin fee, typically £150. They will also audit your online ticket purchase history and if this shows you've purchased other tickets that were not valid (eg railcard discounted tickets when you did not have a valid railcard, or tickets for only par of the journey, or tickets bought after boarding the train you travelled on ) they will probably factor the cost of these journeys into the settlement offer. Depending on how many journeys you've made over the period concerned this could end up being expensive.

Settlements usually have to be paid in full within a few days of them being offered so if money is tight you might want to think about how you will raise the sum required at short notice.

 

[c1.]

They will audit your accounts using your personal details, including those ingrained on the tickets you presented. They submit GDPR requests to ticket retailers to find all the other times you've done the same thing.

Ah I see. By accounts do you mean accounts on ticket retailers like

Here is some general information from a regular forum member that may be of help to you, which I have copied below:



Firstly, you committed a criminal offence by travelling with an invalid ticket and railway companies are entitled to prosecute you in the Magistrates Court if they want to. The good news is they will normally offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them and who haven't come to their attention before.

Next, what happens is the railway company will write to you. The letter will go to the address that you gave them / on any of your ID they checked so you need to be able to access hard copy post at that address as they often send things that way (but also check e-mail and spam). It is extremely important that you reply, and you'll only have a limited time to do so (often 14 days from the date on their communication).

When you receive the letter post a redacted copy of it in this thread, along with your draft reply and forum members will proof read it for you. You'll find lots of example letters you can use in this section of the forum but the reply basically needs to mention:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident and will not do this again
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the railway company’s administrative costs in dealing with the matter

The railway will probably offer you an out of court settlement. Expect to have to pay the cost of the fare for the journey you made at the full Anytime rate with no credit given for the invalid ticket you purchased. In addition they will charge an admin fee, typically £150. They will also audit your online ticket purchase history and if this shows you've purchased other tickets that were not valid (eg railcard discounted tickets when you did not have a valid railcard, or tickets for only par of the journey, or tickets bought after boarding the train you travelled on ) they will probably factor the cost of these journeys into the settlement offer. Depending on how many journeys you've made over the period concerned this could end up being expensive.

Settlements usually have to be paid in full within a few days of them being offered so if money is tight you might want to think about how you will raise the sum required at short notice.

This is really helpful, thank you so much! I will share a redacted copy of the letter once I receive it.

 

[Egg Centric]

Ah I see. By accounts do you mean accounts on ticket retailers like

Yes. NB don't delete your account because that'll put you in a worse position as GTR will still have access to the data but now you won't...

 

[AlterEgo]

Ah I see. By accounts do you mean accounts on ticket retailers like

You cut that sentence off, but retailers like Trainline, other train companies, Uber, etc etc, any retailer.

 

[c1.]

Yes. NB don't delete your account because that'll put you in a worse position as GTR will still have access to the data but now you won't...

(Are you joking)

 

[WesternLancer]

(Are you joking)

No. They are not joking . You need to be able to access your account if they alledge other tickets are suspicious. You will need to be able to review your old purchases. Potentially going back some years.

 

[AndroidBango]

(Are you joking)

As well as needing to be able to access your purchase history, deleting your account also looks like you have something to hide.

 

[jon0844]

Plus, deleting your account does NOT delete the data even if you can't access it personally. GTR and others can and do request the deleted data which will be kept to allow for things like investigating a crime, as well as for other legal reasons (like accounting).

Have you short fared before? Bear in mind that they'll likely know the answer to this very soon, and that could massively influence their chosen action from now on.

 

[c1.]

Plus, deleting your account does NOT delete the data even if you can't access it personally. GTR and others can and do request the deleted data which will be kept to allow for things like investigating a crime, as well as for other legal reasons (like accounting).

Have you short fared before? Bear in mind that they'll likely know the answer to this very soon, and that could massively influence their chosen action from now on.

No, I have not short fared before.

 

[Egg Centric]

No, I have not short fared before.

In that case it's no big deal them accessing it. It was especially unfortunate that you got caught on your first time I suppose.

 

[c1.]

The advice we give here is generally colour-blind, since most people don’t identify themselves as you have done, and we see many cases of people being reported as you were without knowing their colour. But of course I accept that as a white man I am biased, even though I’m married to someone who isn’t. I genuinely don’t think there’s mileage for you in trying to pursue this avenue, but what do I know?

I think in general this forum is dominated by white men. It would be interesting to see a census of some sort. Has that ever been conducted on this forum before? (I'm genuinely curious.)

I am not trying to "pursue an avenue"; I am not suggesting that I do not face repercussions for my mistake. I just believe I should be allowed the same due process as any average white man who uses the train. It is shocking, given the information we have on how white officers and others in positions of power treat people of colour (in some cases, despite extensive training), that revenue officers are permitted to choose any consequence they please with few (if any) checks and balances. Most white men in my situation would have been given the opportunity to pay a penalty fare rather than have the situation escalate so quickly.

 

[Darandio]

Most white men in my situation would have been given the opportunity to pay a penalty fare rather than have the situation escalate so quickly.

A penalty fare is normally issued for what can be deemed as a mistake. You get reported for prosecution when you knowingly try to defraud the railway, that is what you have done here.

Despite stating you aren't wanting to pursue an avenue, you have done exactly that and then doubled and tripled down on it in your latest post.

 

[Egg Centric]

I think in general this forum is dominated by white men. It would be interesting to see a census of some sort. Has that ever been conducted on this forum before? (I'm genuinely curious.)

I am not trying to "pursue an avenue"; I am not suggesting that I do not face repercussions for my mistake. I just believe I should be allowed the same due process as any average white man who uses the train. It is shocking, given the information we have on how white officers and others in positions of power treat people of colour (in some cases, despite extensive training), that revenue officers are permitted to choose any consequence they please with few (if any) checks and balances. Most white men in my situation would have been given the opportunity to pay a penalty fare rather than have the situation escalate so quickly.

Anecdotally, the forum is undoubtedly dominated by men but it's a lot more racially diverse than you might think. My wife is black. GTR RPIs are a diverse bunch. This is not going to be a productive path to go down.

 

[c1.]

In that case it's no big deal them accessing it. It was especially unfortunate that you got caught on your first time I suppose.

Sure, I am just anxious about what kind of narrative they are going to build about me if/when they check my account. When the officer checked my ID (a form of which only migrants in the UK have), he was unfamiliar with the type of ID and could not make out which was my first and last name because of his lack of knowledge. He was so openly frustrated and antagonistic about asking me for my name!

Anecdotally, the forum is undoubtedly dominated by men but it's a lot more racially diverse than you might think. My wife is black. GTR RPIs are a diverse bunch. This is not going to be a productive path to go down.

I think the moderators should definitely organise a census if there is some way to do that! And, you might like this Wikipedia page

 

[AlterEgo]

I think in general this forum is dominated by white men. It would be interesting to see a census of some sort. Has that ever been conducted on this forum before? (I'm genuinely curious.)

I am not trying to "pursue an avenue"; I am not suggesting that I do not face repercussions for my mistake. I just believe I should be allowed the same due process as any average white man who uses the train. It is shocking, given the information we have on how white officers and others in positions of power treat people of colour (in some cases, despite extensive training), that revenue officers are permitted to choose any consequence they please with few (if any) checks and balances. Most white men in my situation would have been given the opportunity to pay a penalty fare rather than have the situation escalate so quickly.

No, they wouldn't. For a start, because you had purchased tickets before dealing with the inspector, under the law a penalty fare cannot be issued - only a report for prosecution. You can find hundreds of examples of people on the forum who have attempted exactly what you've done. What has happened to you is exactly what should happen and does indeed happen to basically everyone who commits the offence you committed.

You are not the victim here, and are not generating any sympathy. It is categorically not true that white men will be penalty fared for this. Everyone we have seen on the forum who has done exactly this with this company has been written up for prosecution. It is extremely routine for them, and is the only disposal the revenue inspector had available to them. Remember, most of the people posting here post all the time and see all the posts in this part of the forum.

What you need to do is what everyone else does - pay the proper fare. If you need help writing a letter to avoid being prosecuted this forum can help. But if you continue to fail to take responsibility for what you have done and believe it is your job here to tell experienced posters what's what in the world of revenue protection, there is not much people can do to assist you.

 

[SussexMan]

I am not suggesting that I do not face repercussions for my mistake.

You did not make a mistake. You choose to commit a criminal act by not paying your fare.

I just believe I should be allowed the same due process as any average white man who uses the train.

What evidence do you have that you were not allowed the same due process? From reading the hundreds of other threads on this topic I would put to you that you were treated just like many others.

Most white men in my situation would have been given the opportunity to pay a penalty fare rather than have the situation escalate so quickly.

Please provide the evidence which you have as you state this as fact.


Penalty fares are for genuine mistakes and yours was not.

 

[Egg Centric]

And, you might like this Wikipedia page

You might like this one

 

[Class2ldn]

Why do they need to do a census?
Doesn't matter what colour anyone is on the forum.
You got caught committing an offence and you were punished the same as anyone else.
It really is that simple.
Just work with gtr and they will probably be happy to sort it without it going to court etc.
I don't see why your colour needed to be included in the conversation in all honesty.
The people dealing with it won't build any narrative apart from someone who committed an offence, they'll only be worried about dealing with that.

 

[Trainman40083]

There seems so many warning signs as to what might happen. How did you get onto Brighton railway station without a ticket? Always seems like Fort Knox when I have been. Maybe a ticket to somewhere like Preston Park? The revenue staff would have been able to see exactly when you bought the tickets. Like when approached. How would you have got into Farringdon station without scanning on, given the barriers there? You may think you have been picked on, but I'd expect everyone in that scenario to have the same outcome. As others have said, do not delete your ticket buying account .

 

[stu]

I was traveling from Brighton to St Pancras earlier today, but only had a ticket from Farringdon to St Pancras. When I spotted the revenue officer walking towards me, I tried to purchase a ticket as quickly as I could but he approached me before the transaction could go through.

I showed him my ticket and I began to apologise for my mistake, hoping I would receive a penalty fare.

In what way is it a mistake to travel to travel 55 miles on a ticket only valid for 1.5 miles?

That's why you weren't offered a penalty fare.