Train ran fast with no warning causing passengers to be overcarried (10/11/25)

[DelW]

For those of us with hearing impairment excessive spam announcements (i.e. nothing to do with this specific journey) leads to hearing fatigue. Noise cancelling ear buds help. There really needs to be pressure to bin these announcements. They are a source of frustation and annoyance to all passengers, and are particularly problematic to those of us with hearing impairment where they actually make matters worse. They are the main reason I now use noise cancelling device on long journeys. i.e. Rise in excessive announcements, so I work out how to avoid it causing me harm, solution noise cancelling.

Absolutely agree with this. I've been on trains where the calling pattern has been changed, or the train terminated short, where almost everyone in the coach has ignored the relevant announcements because they assumed it was the same old stuff we've all heard hundreds of times before. Even for me trying to hear what's happening, the noise level of continuing conversations often makes it hard or impossible to discern. If announcements were kept for non-routine stuff passengers actually need to know, there's more chance attention will be paid to them. When the PA is droning away almost constantly with see it, say it, penalty fares, take all your belongings, mind the gap, and all the rest, hardly anyone listens to any of it.

 

[speedy1]

If you are wearing noise cancelling headphones, then you need to be aware that you will miss any announcement,

The railway started it with the excessive announcements. This alert 'overload' is well studied in broader circles, which I'm sure the railway are well aware of. I've dealt with this issue in my professional career many times and it's easy to demonstrate that a decreased volume of alerts, of higher signal, correlates with higher response quality.

 

[andy33gmail]

When the PA is droning away almost constantly with see it, say it, penalty fares, take all your belongings, mind the gap, and all the rest, hardly anyone listens to any of it.

Or lists every single remaining stop at each station. Which on the Liverpool Street line is … a lot

 

[Vexed]

flashing screen

Got to be careful of photosensitive epilepsy here. There's probably a way of making it work though.

 

[whoosh]

I'm not convinced drivers regularly update changes to calling patterns are updated in the on train screens, I can't recall it on a 700 specifically. Maybe it's changed recently, I haven't used Thameslink as much in the last year.

Platform screens, yes, these usually update in good time, often before the driver's announcement! And if the platform screens have updated this usually means most real-time apps would have the changes as well (except RTT as they use different data sources).

The problem with 700s is that you can only skip a stop on the on-train screens when it is the next stop - you can't skip stops for later in the journey. E.g. The driver might know they are running fast from East Croydon to Gatwick Airport, and also fast from Three Bridges to Horsham. They can't skip Coulsdon South, Merstham, Redhill, and Horley until arrival at East Croydon, and can't skip Crawley, Ifield, and Littlehaven until arrival at Three Bridges.

You can only skip the next stop, and only multiple stops when they are consecutive.

You can silence the audible announcements and then make manual ones.

Electrostars have a different system where stops can be skipped in advance, or when setting up the cab.
717s have a modified version of the 700 system, where stops can be skipped in advance.

The 700s are supposedly getting a completely new Passenger Information System in the cab (I dont think it will look any different for the passengers), where stops can be added and skipped in advance, and also ad-hoc alterations to stopping patterns by Control will be able to be accepted to change the announcements and displays as well. Training started some time last year, but then stopped for quite a time - rumour was that there was an issue with the company making the new system, which will be a touchscreen replacing the 1990s looking system currently fitted.
Training has recently restarted.
No units have been fitted yet, and I think it's next year that the roll out is now planned.

This will be much better, as the opposite of skipping stops - having stops added, also can't be accommodated by the current 700 system, and you have to make manual announcements , including for the short platforms that the extra stops inevitably have.

 

[mike57]

This alert 'overload' is well studied in broader circles,

And failure to manage it has led to serious some incidents outside the railway industry, Both the Milford Haven Fire in 1994 and the Buncefield explosions in 2005 have alert (alarm) overload as one of their root causes. Not only is it bad practice to have alert overload, but in other industries it has to be considered and managed through out the life cycle of the installation, with some fairly strict guidance. I am really surprised it hasn't filtered through into the railway industry.

 

[Spurs]

My concern with noises, flashing screens etc for particularly important announcements is that overtime, the geniuses in charges will just expand the definition of "particularly important" again, especially after an incident. One person goes between the train and the platform somewhere = louder, more obnoxious warnings about it forever afterwards.

 

[fandroid]

I have a similar problem, hearing loss and tinitus mean train announcements are a real problem for me. I can hear someone is talking, just cant make out the words, compounded by the general train noise and less than perfect PA systems. This is then made worse by the general drone of spam announcements, warning me rain is wet, there are gaps at platforms, I must have a ticket, and to text a number if I see anything etc.

I kniow this has been covered before, but it is a real problem for those with hearing impairment. Firstly hearing aids only help to a point, if there is a lot of background noise or the input sound is distorted (typical ropey train PA) then they just make the noise louder, remember rubbish in = rubbish out.

If I know I need to listen I can concentrate, but look up something called Hearing exhaustion, fine for one announcement, not a solution for the usual drone of rubbish, so I tend to switch off and resort to noise cancelling ear buds, particularly on a long journey.

On a recent (last weekend) 30 minute journey back from Scarborough there were about 15 minutes of drone, to the point where a conversation with my wife was impossible.

What could be done:

Remove the drone of spam announcements, only announcements relevant to the current journey should be made "This train is for XYZ, the next stop is ABC", "We are approaching ABC", and "This train calls at ..."
when stopped at a station, are fine anything else should not be made.

Preceed anything out of sequence which needs immediate passenger reaction or conveys immediate information with a bing bong sound, similar to that used on SNCF, it gives those of us with impaired hearing time to switch on mentally and concentrate. Anything else should be relegated to the displays at the end of carriages, with a hearing loop and audio backup for those with sight loss. I can program my phone to recognise the bing bong sound.

Ensure that PA equipment is properly maintained and clear. Consider duplicating important announcements on the in carriage displays similar to closed caption displays, the software exists and is in regular use in other areas of our lives, its not rocket science, yes sometimes the words can get a bit jumbled, but generally sense can be made of it.

None of these things would cost vast sums of money, but would help hearing impaired people, and I think would improve the environment for everyone.

Text messages rely on a phone signal, Wi Fi where it exists could provide the message service to your phone, perhaps in conjunction with an app which 'listens' in the background. Its possible, just needs someone to develop and deploy.

Rather concerningly the ToCs dont seem interested, in spite of the potential safety implications.

All this in spades. My hearing has got gradually worse. I would even phase out all diesel trains asap due to their impressive capability of drowning all pa messages both on the train and in stations.

 

[Deepgreen]

In my experience Thameslink are very good at providing information on skip stopping. On the train this is displayed on the passenger information screens, though it does require the patience to watch everything else that is there too. The core station platform passenger information is even better, with skipped stations remaining on the departure screens but with a strikethrough line to show that they are not stopping.

That is the nub of it! The tedious scrolling of routine information on those screens makes exceptions hugely harder to get across. It would be useful, perhaps, if exceptional messages cut in to over-ride all others and flashed in a bright colour to attract attention.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Nov 2025 ==

Not at at Goring by Sea?

Were you on it?

Passengers for all but Preston Park got there quicker by staying on, than if they had changed at Hove and Brighton.

Preston Park passengers didn't miss out by much.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Nov 2025 ==


That's unlikely to work in time, but feel free to make any such proposals in the Speculative Discussion section.

Perhaps so, but the risk of someone pulling the cord again when their station is passed rises greatly.

 

[BrianW]

And failure to manage it has led to serious some incidents outside the railway industry, Both the Milford Haven Fire in 1994 and the Buncefield explosions in 2005 have alert (alarm) overload as one of their root causes. Not only is it bad practice to have alert overload, but in other industries it has to be considered and managed through out the life cycle of the installation, with some fairly strict guidance. I am really surprised it hasn't filtered through into the railway industry.

ALERT overload- there must surely be research evidence for what works, and what doesn't. I imagine (happy to be corrected) that Milford Haven and Buncefield will have applied to smaller numbers than this 'overload' on the railway, which applies to a more diverse 'audience' regarding disabilities, poor hearing, mobility etc. I recognise of course that the effects of overcarrying etc are less severe than of fire or explosion. However could there not for instance be 'some fairly strict guidance' to switdch off 'routine' announcements (see it etc!) when incidents occur. Less is more. It would also help if passengers would 'shut up' during announcements.

Hopefully a new 'passenger watchdog' will assemble an 'agenda' of 'customer-facing issues'.

 

[mike57]

I imagine (happy to be corrected) that Milford Haven and Buncefield will have applied to smaller numbers than this 'overload' on the railway

I think it is was more of a long term 'wearing down' with repeated false or non critical alarms causing operators to ignore them, one of them then turned out to be significant and should not have been ignored. Just like the railways really. I have also seen the same issue in other related industries which have led to similar bad outcomes that just haven't made the news to the same degree. If you applied the sort of sloppy thinking regarding information presentation at a top tier COMAH site that seems to apply on the railway the HSE would to use a simple term be "All over you like a rash", with improvement notices and probable legal action. I realise the railways are a different case, but the potential for harm is still there.

The recent events near Peterborough are an example of a situation where a timely response to announcements could make a significant difference to the outcome, to me it is a case of when not if. It really is time that action is taken before "Announcment overload resulting in a failure of passengers to respond to 'XYZ' resulted in a much worse outcome" is identified as the cause of a serious incident by a rail accident investigation. The sad thing is its not an expensive thing to sort, draw up some rules which are applied nationally, and apply them, involving outside Human Factors specialists, and taking on board guidance from other industries.

 

[riceuten]

I was once overcarried on a Great Northern Train that was due to stop at Finsbury Park but didn't (without warning). This was exacerbated by revenue control staff meeting the train and attempting to fine the people who has been overcarried! There's a post elsewhere on the forum that described this in greater detail, but, in essence, I only had a pass that covered me to FPK and

a) I was told to "pay the fine and claim it back"
b) I walked off without paying the fine to catch a train in the opposite direction

 

[Snow1964]

All this in spades. My hearing has got gradually worse. I would even phase out all diesel trains asap due to their impressive capability of drowning all pa messages both on the train and in stations.

GWR in Wessex area seem to go out of their way to contribute to this stupidity. They don't get the a/c fixed so windows get opened, then many of the auto messages seem to be timed to play as train diesels are at full revs accelerating away from stations.

Whoever plans this has no joined up thinking, and yes the excess of thus unintelligible announcements mean people switch out so any theoretical safety aspect is lost.

 

[Howardh]

From watching my fellow passengers I'd say that wearing headphones, and staring at little screens, is the main reason why people miss announcements and on screen information.

The ultra excessive regular announcements is the major reason I wear noise-cancelling headphones. Who started it?

Same

Yes, if they'd stop bombarding us with spam we wouldn't need to block it all out. Surely TOCs realise by now that ear overload means we deliberately miss what we genuinely need to hear, so all this spam is actually counter-productive?

 

[TUC]

Whilst I agree that the number of announcements needs to drastically reduced, those who are wearing headphones are making their own choice to do so and will be more than able to look after themselves if they miss an announcement about a station being skipped. In terms of priorities for the industry's focus, it is disabled people who will experience significant difficulties from a change of station where attention needs to lie.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

That's done via the on train passenger information screens. On Thameslink trains they are very good, but it does require people to actually look at them.

On a Thameslink train, that will alert you to the need to pay attention to what is being displayed on the on train passenger information screens.

I'd disagree; in recent months I've been on three Thameslinks which have been run fast to make up time; one was non stop between Wimbledon and Sutton, one was non stop from Herne Hill to Sutton via Mitcham and one was non stop from Sutton to Wimbledon.

In all three cases, while the platform screens correctly gave the skip stop details from several stops prior to the fast section, the on board screens continued to display and announce all the stops that the train was no longer calling at.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Whilst I agree that the number of announcements needs to drastically reduced, those who are wearing headphones are making their own choice to do so and will be more than able to look after themselves if they miss an announcement about a station being skipped. In terms of priorities for the industry's focus, it is disabled people who will experience significant difficulties from a change of station where attention needs to lie.

Is there a possible way of cutting in to Bluetooth headphones with urgent announcements?

I know it can be done on the cellular networks if an emergency alert is sent out.

 

[mike57]

Whilst I agree that the number of announcements needs to drastically reduced, those who are wearing headphones are making their own choice to do so and will be more than able to look after themselves if they miss an announcement about a station being skipped. In terms of priorities for the industry's focus,it is disabled people who will experience significant difficulties from a change of station where attention needs to lie.

And those of us with hearing impairment actually suffer the worst from the current cacophany of spam, see my post #11, so hearing impaired and other disabilities (which fortunately I dont suffer from) dont stand a chance.

Again why is something that is so simple to sort not being sorted. Any 'difficulties' are self inflicted, when I design a control system for a high hazard system I have a series of 'recommendations' for Alarm management (which is very similar to the current audio spam issue) to follow. If for some reason I cant follow them the I have to put forward a robust justification, and in general its easier to follow them, unless there is a really good reason not to.

Wearing noise cancelling headphones is the only way I can avoid hearing fatigue on a longer journey with a lots of close together stops. Hearing fatigue is miserable, and adds to stress, which in my case manifests itself in other negative ways.

On a recent journey there were announcements about wet platforms, platform gaps, penalty fares and having a valid ticket, as well as the dreaded 'see it...' message at every stop in addition to the more useful stuff like "The next stop is" Thats 5 spam announcement every 5 - 10 minutes.

 

[35B]

Is there a possible way of cutting in to Bluetooth headphones with urgent announcements?

I know it can be done on the cellular networks if an emergency alert is sent out.

That would require pairing of the device to the network. If I've got my headphones in to cut out the spam, then I'm sure as hell going to make sure that any attempt by an operator to take over my headphones will be blocked.

As other have said, the core issue is that there are too many announcements of minimal value, which drown out the few that do matter.

I know that some disagree, but I think the railway could do with learning from airports and moving to a policy of not making routine announcements at all.

 

[TUC]

And those of us with hearing impairment actually suffer the worst from the current cacophany of spam, see my post #11, so hearing impaired and other disabilities (which fortunately I dont suffer from) dont stand a chance.

Again why is something that is so simple to sort not being sorted. Any 'difficulties' are self inflicted, when I design a control system for a high hazard system I have a series of 'recommendations' for Alarm management (which is very similar to the current audio spam issue) to follow. If for some reason I cant follow them the I have to put forward a robust justification, and in general its easier to follow them, unless there is a really good reason not to.

Wearing noise cancelling headphones is the only way I can avoid hearing fatigue on a longer journey with a lots of close together stops. Hearing fatigue is miserable, and adds to stress, which in my case manifests itself in other negative ways.

On a recent journey there were announcements about wet platforms, platform gaps, penalty fares and having a valid ticket, as well as the dreaded 'see it...' message at every stop in addition to the more useful stuff like "The next stop is" Thats 5 spam announcement every 5 - 10 minutes.

To clarify, I was not talking about those who wear headphones to help support their hearing impairment. I was meaning those who wear them simply as a choice for listening to music or other reasons.

 

[Horizon22]

That is a blatant disability issue, only announcing over PA, but not free typing a message on the visual display, or if can't update the screens, a member of staff walking through the train advising the old fashioned way (PA wasn't even fitted on most trains on the line until 40 years ago)

On Thameslink I’m pretty sure it’s just a few clicks from the driver to go into the PIS calling pattern and amend. Most modern stock is like this and is easily manageable by the driver / TM / guard

It is quite frustrating when the PIS isn’t amended but a manual announcement only is done.

 

[35B]

Whilst I agree that the number of announcements needs to drastically reduced, those who are wearing headphones are making their own choice to do so and will be more than able to look after themselves if they miss an announcement about a station being skipped. In terms of priorities for the industry's focus, it is disabled people who will experience significant difficulties from a change of station where attention needs to lie.

That doesn't altogether cut it. For those who are listening by choice, and don't require assistance, there is still the underlying issue that most audio announcements don't require attention, but are basically no more than spam. That requires a focus on drawing proper attention to announcements that passengers need to hear, as opposed to ones that are merely useful.

 

[Horizon22]

The problem with 700s is that you can only skip a stop on the on-train screens when it is the next stop - you can't skip stops for later in the journey. E.g. The driver might know they are running fast from East Croydon to Gatwick Airport, and also fast from Three Bridges to Horsham. They can't skip Coulsdon South, Merstham, Redhill, and Horley until arrival at East Croydon, and can't skip Crawley, Ifield, and Littlehaven until arrival at Three Bridges.

You can only skip the next stop, and only multiple stops when they are consecutive.

You can silence the audible announcements and then make manual ones.

Electrostars have a different system where stops can be skipped in advance, or when setting up the cab.
717s have a modified version of the 700 system, where stops can be skipped in advance.

The 700s are supposedly getting a completely new Passenger Information System in the cab (I dont think it will look any different for the passengers), where stops can be added and skipped in advance, and also ad-hoc alterations to stopping patterns by Control will be able to be accepted to change the announcements and displays as well. Training started some time last year, but then stopped for quite a time - rumour was that there was an issue with the company making the new system, which will be a touchscreen replacing the 1990s looking system currently fitted.
Training has recently restarted.
No units have been fitted yet, and I think it's next year that the roll out is now planned.

This will be much better, as the opposite of skipping stops - having stops added, also can't be accommodated by the current 700 system, and you have to make manual announcements , including for the short platforms that the extra stops inevitably have.

Surprised it’s that bad on one of the newer trains in the country!

 

[TUC]

That is a blatant disability issue, only announcing over PA, but not free typing a message on the visual display, or if can't update the screens, a member of staff walking through the train advising the old fashioned way (PA wasn't even fitted on most trains on the line until 40 years ago)

Automated transcription of audio announcements is also a very standard feature of modern technology which I hope would be readily replicated on train PIS.

 

[AlterEgo]

To clarify, I was not talking about those who wear headphones to help support their hearing impairment. I was meaning those who wear them simply as a choice for listening to music or other reasons.

There are undoubtedly going to still be mobility impaired people who enjoy wearing headphones during a train journey though.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Most modern stock is like this and is easily manageable by the driver / TM / guard

It is quite frustrating when the PIS isn’t amended but a manual announcement only is done.

80X series are awful to amend stops on - can only remove stops, can't add any new OR edit the final destination, so if you terminate short the only option is to switch it all off and do manual announcements. But then there's no free text option to display, so the only option is to have the visual text displays just be blank...

 

[uglymonkey]

I'd disagree; in recent months I've been on three Thameslinks which have been run fast to make up time; one was non stop between Wimbledon and Sutton, one was non stop from Herne Hill to Sutton via Mitcham and one was non stop from Sutton to Wimbledon.

In all three cases, while the platform screens correctly gave the skip stop details from several stops prior to the fast section, the on board screens continued to display and announce all the stops that the train was no longer calling at.

The driver in my experience on Thameslink tells you of cut stops ( usually fast from Letchworth to Cambridge) not the overhead screens which usually carry the usual stopping pattern for quite a while after the decision to skip stops is taken.

 

[43096]

Automated transcription of audio announcements is also a very standard feature of modern technology which I hope would be readily replicated on train PIS.

Yes, but this is the railway industry… Train PIS systems in almost all cases don’t automatically update when stops are removed/added, can’t cope with diversions etc., even though the PIS in my pocket (my phone) will do this without issue.

 

[TUC]

Yes, but this is the railway industry… Train PIS systems in almost all cases don’t automatically update when stops are removed/added, can’t cope with diversions etc., even though the PIS in my pocket (my phone) will do this without issue.

I recognise that. It just does not, superficially at least, seem much of a technology leap to make when systems to do this are so readily available.

 

[43096]

I recognise that. It just does not, superficially at least, seem much of a technology leap to make when systems to do this are so readily available.

I agree. That was my point, really. If I can get the information on my phone, then there is no excuse why a train cannot update using the same technology. It's inexcusable.