Refund when choosing not to travel on a delayed train

[Stargull]

If a train is delayed, and I choose not to travel, I understand I'm entitled to a refund of the ticket. If the journey was to be covered by the return leg of a day return ticket, is the refund due (before admin charge) half of the price of the ticket, or the difference between a day single and a day return?

 

[Watershed]

Industry procedures state that it would be half of the fare paid. No admin fee is deducted for disruption refunds.

Some retailers wrongly only refund the difference between the single and return fare. As well as being contrary to industry procedures, this is highly questionable under the Consumer Rights Act.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Industry procedures state that it would be half of the fare paid. No admin fee is deducted for disruption refunds.

So noted. Is there any threshold for how long/short the delay needs to be before a fee-free refund is possible? A 'de minimis' delay of just a few minutes would seem to be gaming the system.

 

[John R]

So noted. Is there any threshold for how long/short the delay needs to be before a fee-free refund is possible? A 'de minimis' delay of just a few minutes would seem to be gaming the system.

I think in previous discussions we’ve agreed there is no such threshold. I’m quite surprised this hasn’t been tightened up in the latest draft of the CoT for precisely the reason you suggest.

 

[Watershed]

So noted. Is there any threshold for how long/short the delay needs to be before a fee-free refund is possible? A 'de minimis' delay of just a few minutes would seem to be gaming the system.

There is nothing in the NRCoT which defines how much a delay needs to be before it entitles you to claim a refund. Therefore, I think retailers would struggle to impose a threshold of more than a couple of minutes based on the wording as it stands.

Given the changes to the NRCoT which are coming next year (making walk-up fares no longer refundable on or after the day of travel) I suspect this will have to be looked at again. It otherwise fundamentally undermines that change since almost all journeys will have at least one service on any given day that would have such a delay.

Whilst I wouldn't argue for introducing a threshold, if one had to be introduced, I would argue for keeping it towards the lower end - e.g. 10 or 15 minutes rather than the 60+ minutes which is common on the continent. It would seem illogical to have Delay Repay available for 15+ minute delays (on many TOCs) and yet not entitle you to a refund.

 

[Stargull]

Thanks. The context for the question is a last train home with a tight change, which even a few minutes delay might imperil. And so if there's any disruption, I might choose to take another method of transport, or stay over, rather than risk getting stuck for ages in the middle waiting for alternative transport.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

It would seem illogical to have Delay Repay available for 15+ minute delays (on many TOCs) and yet not entitle you to a refund.

This may come under the heading of 'be careful what you wish for' in that another way of resolving the (potential) anomaly would be to only make Delay Repay available for (say) 60+ minute delays.

 

[Watershed]

This may come under the heading of 'be careful what you wish for' in that another way of resolving the (potential) anomaly would be to only make Delay Repay available for (say) 60+ minute delays.

We have already heard noises in the past about Delay Repay 15 being abolished. I would similarly disagree with that, but I doubt that Delay Repay 30 would go as it is so well-established.

 

[island]

We have already heard noises in the past about Delay Repay 15 being abolished. I would similarly disagree with that, but I doubt that Delay Repay 30 would go as it is so well-established.

I have heard noises about a minimum £ threshold being established for Delay Repay claims. In the EU for example train companies are allowed to set a minimum of no more than €4.

 

[John R]

I have heard noises about a minimum £ threshold being established for Delay Repay claims. In the EU for example train companies are allowed to set a minimum of no more than €4.

That makes sense. I wouldn’t be averse to that. Doing away with the 15 min delay would help reduce de minimis claims for short local journeys too.

 

[agk2126]

Once a train is delayed even a few minutes, that can often escalate. How many times have we seen a 30 minute delay begin with a 5 minute delay?

Even a minor disruption could be enough to make alternate transport preferable over rail.

Let's say I arrive ~10-15 minutes early to the Oxford station, planning to catch a stopping service to Banbury or Bicester or Didcot. If that train is showing any delay, and there's a bus to my destination idling and about to depart (often the case) my best option might be to hop on that bus. And I'd certainly want a full refund from the railway in those circumstances, even for a modest amount.

 

[AlterEgo]

Once a train is delayed even a few minutes, that can often escalate. How many times have we seen a 30 minute delay begin with a 5 minute delay?

Even a minor disruption could be enough to make alternate transport preferable over rail.

Let's say I arrive ~10-15 minutes early to the Oxford station, planning to catch a stopping service to Banbury or Bicester or Didcot. If that train is showing any delay, and there's a bus to my destination idling and about to depart (often the case) my best option might be to hop on that bus. And I'd certainly want a full refund from the railway in those circumstances, even for a modest amount.

By the same logic an on time train can often be delayed, so I don't see how this is consistent.

 

[John R]

Once a train is delayed even a few minutes, that can often escalate. How many times have we seen a 30 minute delay begin with a 5 minute delay?

Even a minor disruption could be enough to make alternate transport preferable over rail.

Let's say I arrive ~10-15 minutes early to the Oxford station, planning to catch a stopping service to Banbury or Bicester or Didcot. If that train is showing any delay, and there's a bus to my destination idling and about to depart (often the case) my best option might be to hop on that bus. And I'd certainly want a full refund from the railway in those circumstances, even for a modest amount.

If you want that level of flexibility you could always not purchase your ticket until you arrive at the station and then make your decision. (Admittedly that doesn’t work for the return half of a ticket).

I guess the point is at what level of delay has the railway not delivered a service that they have contracted to do. I don’t think any reasonable person would regard a one or two minute delay as failing that test.

 

[agk2126]

By the same logic an on time train can often be delayed, so I don't see how this is consistent.

True. Since passengers are not entitled to a refund for a train operating on time (at least not without admin fees), there's no dilemma about whether to claim one, nor whether that should be permissible.

Empirically, I would guess (though don't have data to back this up) that, say, within ~15 minutes of scheduled departure, a much higher % of initially delayed trains will accumulate additional delay, compared to the % of on time trains suddenly getting delayed.

If you want that level of flexibility you could always not purchase your ticket until you arrive at the station and then make your decision. (Admittedly that doesn’t work for the return half of a ticket).

Yes, the return half of a ticket, or an inflexible Advance ticket. I might prefer to travel by train (at the Advance fare) if a train is on time, and by local bus if not.

I guess the point is at what level of delay has the railway not delivered a service that they have contracted to do. I don’t think any reasonable person would regard a one or two minute delay as failing that test.

This is exactly the right question. Not sure how this is defined legally, but in a regional or intercity transport context I would rephrase the question slightly. At what level of delay the railway is no longer offering an unambiguously preferable option to the passenger than all alternatives? These include (a) another mode of transport, or (b) abandoning the trip entirely.

Railways are selling passenger transport between points A and B, departing at time t. Once that changes to t + 5, the journey has changed from what they had paid for, and may no longer work. Riding a bus, or cycling, might well be faster or better value for money. And that should probably be the passenger's decision.

That said, if a London to Edinburgh train is a few minutes late, it might not be reasonable for passengers to expect a refund. There are almost certainly no better ways to get to Edinburgh than the original train, even if slightly delayed, and it's not plausible someone would abandon a journey of that distance and cost based on a negligible disruption. Not sure how to define this broadly, however.

 

[sheff1]

A 'de minimis' delay of just a few minutes would seem to be gaming the system.

If someone chooses not to travel by train because the train is delayed they should be entitled to a refund of the service they have paid for but the railway has failed to provide.

I have heard noises about a minimum £ threshold being established for Delay Repay claims. In the EU for example train companies are allowed to set a minimum of no more than €4.

Not happy about that.

If I am delayed by over on hour on a 25 min journey between Sheffield and Doncaster having paid £3.70 I think 100% compensation is fully justified. The delay is likely to have caused more inconvenience than a 15 min delay on a 4 hour journey from Sheffield to Brighton.

 

[AlterEgo]

The delay is likely to have caused more inconvenience than a 15 min delay on a 4 hour journey from Sheffield to Edinburgh.

Which would give you £0 compensation if you travelled with XC/LNER.

(But I get your broader point!)

 

[sheff1]

Which would give you £0 compensation if you travelled with XC/LNER.

(But I get your broader point!)

Very true . Let's substitute a Sheffield to Brighton journey.

 

[spotify95]

Once a train is delayed even a few minutes, that can often escalate. How many times have we seen a 30 minute delay begin with a 5 minute delay?

Even a minor disruption could be enough to make alternate transport preferable over rail.

Let's say I arrive ~10-15 minutes early to the Oxford station, planning to catch a stopping service to Banbury or Bicester or Didcot. If that train is showing any delay, and there's a bus to my destination idling and about to depart (often the case) my best option might be to hop on that bus. And I'd certainly want a full refund from the railway in those circumstances, even for a modest amount.

This happens on the Midland Mainline as well.
I've seen trains (on Realtime Trains) start with a 10 minute delay leaving St Pancras, which then becomes a 20 or 25 minute delay by the time it has reached Bedford. That is significant, because (for the most part) anything that is delayed by more than about 15 minutes will not reach its terminus of Corby, and will terminate early at Kettering. (On extreme circumstances, such as very long delays, it may even terminate at Wellingborough.) As a commuter between Wellingborough and Corby, for work purposes, this is inconvenient at best, and if this happens at the wrong time in the morning, I have to either explain to my employer why I'm late by 30 minutes, or completely abandon train travel in favor of the car.

Though since i purchase weekly tickets, how would a suitable refund (for abandoned travel in the morning as in the example above) be calculated? Personally, given the TOC's attitudes displayed in this very forum against fare evaders, I'd say based on Anytime Singles.

 

[AlterEgo]

This happens on the Midland Mainline as well.
I've seen trains (on Realtime Trains) start with a 10 minute delay leaving St Pancras, which then becomes a 20 or 25 minute delay by the time it has reached Bedford. That is significant, because (for the most part) anything that is delayed by more than about 15 minutes will not reach its terminus of Corby, and will terminate early at Kettering. (On extreme circumstances, such as very long delays, it may even terminate at Wellingborough.) As a commuter between Wellingborough and Corby, for work purposes, this is inconvenient at best, and if this happens at the wrong time in the morning, I have to either explain to my employer why I'm late by 30 minutes, or completely abandon train travel in favor of the car.

Though since i purchase weekly tickets, how would a suitable refund (for abandoned travel in the morning as in the example above) be calculated? Personally, given the TOC's attitudes displayed in this very forum against fare evaders, I'd say based on Anytime Singles.

One abandoned journey should be a tenth of the cost because it is assumed that a weekly ticket will be used for five return journeys (or ten singles more accurately). An abandoned return is two single journeys and would be a fifth.