Greater Manchester Fares Simplification

[Dewedin]

I assume this means Northern Duo tickets are being scrapped in GM. Also, are they shortening the evening peak?

From bottom of this page:

Off-peak fares are generally valid from 9.30 to 16:00 and from 18:00 onwards on weekdays, and anytime at weekends and on bank holidays.

 

[jfollows]

Thanks for this link.

Tickets to and from stations outside the simpler fare zone remain unchanged.

Phew!
Duo tickets and day return tickets Wilmslow-Manchester appear not to be affected, then.

 

[mangad]

I think on the advance ticket thing, people are missing something very important.

Singles and Returns are available for both types, and Singles are half the cost of a return

Let's take Manchester Airport as an example. Anytime Day Return to Manchester Central Zone is £10.50 according to brfares. An Anytime Single is £6.70. That single's going to go down in price. That Single will now be as cheap as many of the advance tickets currently on sale on that route. And that offers far greater flexibility. No longer will people need to know whether they're travelling on Northern, on Transpennine Express, or on Transport for Wales, or whatever. They won't need to worry about which train they get. They'll just get the first train.

This makes sense. This is simple. This is clear. This is exactly what it should be for a train journey within a single county. This is a journey that takes a whopping 20 minutes. The current system is an absolute confusing mess that should never have happened in the first place. But let's be blunt. These advance fares were never about saving passengers money. They were about railway companies gaining all the revenue from that fare rather than it being divided up between the various operators on the route.

Let's also be blunt here. Simplification does mean some people will be losers rather than winners. I strongly suspect though that the number of winners will outweigh the losers because seriously, most people just buy whatever they get directed to by the ticket machine or the ticket office.

 

[SuspectUsual]

52% of journeys will be cheaper

The DfT want passengers to pay more

52% by count of unique fares available or 52% of the actual tickets bought at the moment?

If it’s the former, it makes for good PR but could also be giving the DfT what they want

 

[NorthWestRover]

Wouldn't the option now become:
Buy an Advance for the outward journey then an Off-Peak Single for the return?

Probably yes

 

[Starmill]

52% by count of unique fares available or 52% of the actual tickets bought at the moment?

If it’s the former, it makes for good PR but could also be giving the DfT what they want

It means the actual number of prices.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Nov 2025 ==

Will there even be a daily cap, given there isn't an anytime day one at present?

Well there wouldn't be a lot of benefit in pay as you go if it had no cap at all would there? Which is the reason why there is a cap for buses and trams, so extending that to trains and not offering a cap would be very, very odd.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well there wouldn't be a lot of benefit in pay as you go if it had no cap at all would there?

Convenience of not having to prepurchase. The Dutch system doesn't I think have a cap.

 

[Starmill]

Convenience of not having to prepurchase. The Dutch system doesn't I think have a cap.

Right, so, as I said, there wouldn't be a lot of benefit.

 

[DaveB10780]

This is ‘Stage One’, with contactless to follow in December 2026 apparently.

Does anyone care to speculate how railcards will be managed across Manchester. Even if you can link contactless with a Railcard then what about the mis-mash of different rules for the types of card.

 

[Teapot42]

It's a while since I moved away from Stockport, but I looked recently and was amazed not only by how much the fares had increased by in the dozen years, but also how complicated they'd become. I don't think operator specific tickets were even a thing then...

Has the Cheap Evening Return disappeared now? They were good value and always made it worth waiting that bit longer to catch a train in to town.

I guess it's an argument for another thread maybe, but I wonder how appropriate Railcard discounts are for local travel, and whether just getting fares as cheap as possible for anyone is a better approach to modal shift. If you do want to offer discounts to a particular group, then via a LA-specific scheme might be better, as that can cover all modes of transport in a more integrated way.

 

[Starmill]

Has the Cheap Evening Return disappeared now? They were good value and always made it worth waiting that bit longer to catch a train in to town.

These were withdrawn in Manchester some time ago yes.

 

[Soft Hands]

I assume this means Northern Duo tickets are being scrapped in GM. Also, are they shortening the evening peak?

From bottom of this page:

That appears to be an error. I've reported it, via facebook, to both Northern and TPE. Peak time remains 4.01pm to 6.29pm, during which you cannot start, or recommence after a break, a journey with an off-peak ticket. A "more expensive" GM Rail Ranger, valid all day after 9.30m would be massively more use than the current ticket!

 

[Rail Ranger]

The GM Wayfarer doesn't have the evening peak restriction and is also valid on Metrolink and buses: GM WAYFARER - BR Fares https://share.google/6l0TTMuZN3tLAcDap
There is also a Concessionary version for those with English National Concessionary Travel Scheme passes: GM CONC WAYFARER - BR Fares https://share.google/bslQVy8ax597hWXZf

 

[Tetchytyke]

To be fair a lot of advance on the day fares bought close to the time of travel on Northern are priced at roughly half the relevant return. Thus if we disregard Railcards for the moment, if the walk up fares move to single fare pricing then most people don't actually lose.

That is a very fair point. I buy APOD because they are cheaper than current singles, but if a current single was 50% of the current return then APOD probably wouldn’t be any cheaper.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Nov 2025 ==

A "more expensive" GM Rail Ranger, valid all day after 9.30m would be massively more use than the current ticket!

West Yorkshire has a peak version of the DayRover, valid in the morning and evening peak. It’s a shame GM doesn’t.

The best you can do is the Wayfarer which doesn’t have the evening peak restrictions.

 

[gc4946]

I haven't seen the new fares published yet but I'm hoping they're moving to a zonal fare system aligned to the existing Metrolink zones

 

[NCC-1701]

This is a price increase no matter which way they try to spin in. Peak/off peak returns now costing more as they’ve slightly reduced ‘some’ single fares and priced them 1/2 the cost of a return instead of the current pricing of a return being £1/2 more expensive than a single.

Removing on the day advance tickets just hurts people that make last minute plans.

Removing TOC only tickets in the GM Boundary will have practically zero effect as most TOC only tickets are for journeys outside of the area (MAN-SHF, MAN-CRE, MAN-PRE etc) for those that have them within the boundary such as Manchester to Irlam, Urmston or Birchwood, will now see a price increase if not purchasing advance tickets and having to buy peak/off peak tickets on the day.

The one route that does deserve single pricing and causes the most issues with TOC only tickets is the airport to Manchester, as NTH, TfW and TPE all run services outside the boundary they’ll still offer TOC only cheaper tickets.

I cannot find any GM stations that offer off peak singles so anyone just making one journey on the day is massively over paying if travelling off-peak during the week or at the weekends. No news from Burnham if he’s instructed RDG to put off peak single pricing to all GM stations.

 

[tomoufc]

Until we see the new fares, and have access to the fares data, I don’t see how we can say most people will pay more.

 

[dodecahedron67]

The one route that does deserve single pricing and causes the most issues with TOC only tickets is the airport to Manchester, as NTH, TfW and TPE all run services outside the boundary they’ll still offer TOC only cheaper tickets.

Airport to Manchester City Centre will have no more TOC specific tickets.

The structure of the new fares is very similar to the original Single Leg Pricing structure on LNER I believe

 

[Bletchleyite]

Airport to Manchester City Centre will have no more TOC specific tickets.

The structure of the new fares is very similar to the original Single Leg Pricing structure on LNER I believe

It's basically the same as Project Oval, with returns retained unlike LNER.

 

[mangad]

Until we see the new fares, and have access to the fares data, I don’t see how we can say most people will pay more.

Northern's press release says the following:

More than half of train journeys (52%) in Greater Manchester will be cheaper, with customers saving up to £1.50 on some trips, as many single fares will be reduced to ensure they are half the price of a return.

It could also save money for around 4,000 customers a week who are not currently getting the best deal, by using anytime tickets to travel during off-peak periods.

On the remaining 48% of journeys, customers will see a slight price increase. But for most of these trips (85%), it will be a rise of 20p or less.

The new system has not been implemented to increase revenues for train operating companies.

I for one have had several times when I've bought an Anytime Return but have returned off peak - buying singles would certainly be cheaper.

 

[gc4946]

What I would like - but probably won't happen - is the same price and interavailability for single fares on both National Rail and Metrolink to common destinations served by both modes eg Ashton, Altrincham, Eccles, Rochdale and the airport.
All National Rail stations would be zoned as part of Metrolink so instead of buying singles specifying Manchester Piccadilly-Flowery Field or Hyde North I'd buy a zone 1-3 single or return, Ashton being in zone 3 and I suspect Hyde would follow suit.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Just for clarity, is this new fares structure actualy being set by the Mayor of Greater Manchester, or by all the operators in the GM area through the normal industry process (presumably being a given an exemption from competition law because they are doing this at the request of Ministers?) Or is the ability to apply the new fares structure really a consequence of NT/TP setting all intra-GM interavailables, and these operators are owned directly by DFT?

In other words, what happens in future should non-DfT TOCs, DfT TOCs and the Mayor disagree about particular fares levels?

 

[Tetchytyke]

What I would like - but probably won't happen - is the same price and interavailability for single fares on both National Rail and Metrolink to common destinations served by both modes eg Ashton, Altrincham, Eccles, Rochdale and the airport.

I wouldn't. Certainly to the Airport, the tram is cheaper.

 

[tomoufc]

What I would like - but probably won't happen - is the same price and interavailability for single fares on both National Rail and Metrolink to common destinations served by both modes eg Ashton, Altrincham, Eccles, Rochdale and the airport.
All National Rail stations would be zoned as part of Metrolink so instead of buying singles specifying Manchester Piccadilly-Flowery Field or Hyde North I'd buy a zone 1-3 single or return, Ashton being in zone 3 and I suspect Hyde would follow suit.

Is there such a system in London between Underground and National Rail?

 

[Rail Ranger]

I believe there is such a system between National Rail and the Tyne and Wear Metro between Newcastle and Sunderland.

 

[mangad]

Is there such a system in London between Underground and National Rail?

There's no single fares unless the trains and tube go down the same line. Kew Gardens to Richmond for example - that's the same fare.

But if you're going down different routes, there are different fares. Wimbledon to Blackfriars is charged differently depending on whether you got there by tube, or you went by Thameslink, for example.

Of course all this is pretty invisible to the user who uses Pay As You Go. You just tap in and out and job done.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Is there such a system in London between Underground and National Rail?

I believe there is such a system between National Rail and the Tyne and Wear Metro between Newcastle and Sunderland.

It depends, and it is complicated.

There is some inter-availability for some tickets- usually singles, returns, and some point-to-point season tickets. Examples include on NR and LU between, for instance, Queens Park and Harrow and Wealdstone or between King Cross, Highbury and Islington, and Finsbury Park, or on NR and Metro between, for instance, Newcastle Central, Heworth, and Sunderland.

Otherwise the single/return/point-to-point season ticket prices don't always align. Between, say, Richmond and Waterloo the price you pay for a single ticket depends on whether you go by train or by LU.

TfL travelcards (and contactless caps), though, are mostly zonal, so then you pay for the zones you go through. This is the same price whether you travel by train or tube. It is similar in Tyne and Wear, which is also zonal for the PTE season ticket and their ticket can (depending on zones) include train, ferry, bus and Metro.

Greater Manchester doesn't have a zonal season ticket which includes all of the trains, trams, and buses.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Greater Manchester doesn't have a zonal season ticket which includes all of the trains, trams, and buses.

Indeed. The nearest such thing is quite possibly the Transport for Greater Manchester Countycard, at £52.40 per week, which includes buses and trains (including those to/from New Mills) but doesn't include Metrolink trams outwith Zone 1 (= the City centre).

 

[Haywain]

I believe there is such a system between National Rail and the Tyne and Wear Metro between Newcastle and Sunderland.

Not exactly. Tickets are valid on either but POP Card PAYG is only valid on the Metro. But to keep things simple (not), PAYG is accepted on the Northumberland Line trains.

 

[AY1975]

Airport to Manchester City Centre will have no more TOC specific tickets.

For Northern and TransPennine Express, no, but looking at brfares.com there still appear to be TfW only fares for Manchester Piccadilly to both Manchester Airport and Stockport after 7th December.

I was half expecting there also to be TOC specific Manchester to Stockport fares for Avanti and/or CrossCountry, but there don't appear to be any.

Also listed for Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport is a 1st class Anytime Short Return at £19.10, valid for return within one month and listed as set by Greater Manchester PTE even though GMPTE (now Transport for Greater Manchester) has been a Standard Class only PTE since the 1980s.