AWC Derailment at Shap Summit 03/11/25

[Deepgreen]

There are Landslip Early Warning Sensors in the location of the derailment. Either the slip was sudden, or the sensors didn't function correctly. Ironic either way.

I imagine that in the event of torrential rain, these slips can appear from nowhere easily enough without any prior movement.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Nov 2025 ==

Was there any blanket restrictions in place the forecasted heavy rain?

It seems not. It's an interesting point, as the blanket restrictions seem generally to be applied only during windy conditions, rather than wet. The risk of trees falling is obviously the main factor there.

 

[M60lad]

Any idea of eventually how 390 will be moved and where it will actually be moved to get fixed and where any 390s go to get major bodywork like this repaired?

 

[muz379]

Kind of surprised they walk people to evacuate in those circumstances rather than bringing a DMU alongside or behind. It must be quite awkward walking on the ballast if you aren't wearing suitable shoes or are infirm.

It would take time to put in a suitable method of working for that, and potentially take infastructure and response staff away from the primary incident. When they are probably better utilised helping emergency services reach the site of the accident.

 

[35B]

Is it in any fit condition to be temporarily reinstated while the corresponding vehicle from 390 117 is being repaired?

Aside from other answers, it was withdrawn because no one was willing to sign on the dotted line that the vehicle was structurally sound following the Grayrigg incident.

 

[Spartacus]

Any idea of eventually how 390 will be moved and where it will actually be moved to get fixed and where any 390s go to get major bodywork like this repaired?

Dragged from the North end, not sure where to. 57 being prepped apparently.

 

[DaveyJones]

Dragged from the North end, not sure where to. 57 being prepped apparently.

From where it is, a betting man would say Polmadie in Glasgow?

 

[Warrior2852]

Dragged from the North end, not sure where to. 57 being prepped apparently.

Polmadie depot maybe? Is there anywhere better that's in the right direction for the move?

 

[DJH1971]

Ouch!

Looks like the unit has protected the driver very well there though - pretty much all the fibreglass fairing has gone but the cab and windscreen appear intact albeit a bit bent. They are well built, solid units and it shows!

Is it likely to be repaired or written off?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it likely to be repaired or written off?

I'd be surprised if that wasn't repaired. It doesn't look badly damaged, just missing all the fibreglass bits which are purely there to look nice and aid airflow and aren't structural.

 

[357]

Is it likely to be repaired or written off?

Unlikely but far too early to say for sure

 

[rower40]

Two thoughts:
1) with all that debris on the windscreen - DON'T operate the wipers, lest they leave some serious scratches on the glass.

2)
Quote from https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8x1dydwg2jo

The North West Ambulance Service said there were 87 people, including staff, on board and four suffered minor injuries that did not require hospital treatment.

But this differs from "Shabeeh Hassan, director of the hotel, says approximately 130 passengers arrived from 07:30 GMT." (This was on the BBC live feed for this incident, but it seems to have gone now - Tuesday 4th Nov.)

So have a further 45 people from the area decided to get a free breakfast at the hotel by joining the procession of train evacuees? Or is the hotel director inflating the figures to get a bigger costs payout? Or is "plus train staff" doing some really heavy lifting here?

 

[Spartacus]

From where it is, a betting man would say Polmadie in Glasgow?

It'd be my guess, yes, but I'm no betting man.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So have a further 45 people from the area decided to get a free breakfast at the hotel by joining the procession of train evacuees? Or is the hotel director inflating the figures to get a bigger costs payout? Or is "plus train staff" doing some really heavy lifting here?

I'd be surprised if 45 people lived close enough to there to even worry about claiming to be on a derailed train to get a free fry-up. It is an extremely rural location.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Has anyone had a look to see where the northbound service (if there was one) was at the time of the derailment? Given the position of the derailed unit, it looks like it could’ve potentially been far, far worse if it happened to be passing the northbound train at the same time

RTT shows 1S30 stopping northbound at Grayrigg and then the same unit popping up at Oxenholme paltform 2 forming a sertvice back to Manchester in the path of 1M80, suggesting that it ran back to Oxenholme wrong road to take up that path. The original 1M80 was terminated at Carlisle, from where it had been due to depart about ten minutes after the incident happened.

 

[357]

1) with all that debris on the windscreen - DON'T operate the wipers, lest they leave some serious scratches on the glass.

I think that's the least of the concerns in a situation like this. Windscreens are replaced every day up and down the country and can be done very quickly compared to the rest of the damage.

 

[Spartacus]

Two thoughts:
1) with all that debris on the windscreen - DON'T operate the wipers, lest they leave some serious scratches on the glass.

2) Quote from North West Ambulance service was "Fortunately, we don’t believe anyone has suffered any significant injuries. There are approximately 85 passengers on board, plus train staff who are now being evacuated from the train." But this differs from "Shabeeh Hassan, director of the hotel, says approximately 130 passengers arrived from 07:30 GMT."

So have a further 45 people from the area decided to get a free breakfast at the hotel by joining the procession of train evacuees? Or is the hotel director inflating the figures to get a bigger costs payout? Or is "plus train staff" doing some really heavy lifting here?

If he's doing the latter he's going to find out sharpish that in such situations the railway does REALLY accurate headcounts, but it might be about the numbers I'd expect when you count the staff who'd attend an incident too, from first-aiders giving everyone a once-over to the bus crews.

 

[357]

So have a further 45 people from the area decided to get a free breakfast at the hotel by joining the procession of train evacuees? Or is the hotel director inflating the figures to get a bigger costs payout? Or is "plus train staff" doing some really heavy lifting here?

Or does the story evolve with more accurate information as the day goes on. For example, that 130 figure could include breakfasts given to emergency crews who find themselves in a remote area for an extended period

 

[Efini92]

I'd be surprised if that wasn't repaired. It doesn't look badly damaged, just missing all the fibreglass bits which are purely there to look nice and aid airflow and aren't structural.

There’ll be more damage underneath, but still not enough to write it off.

I think that's the least of the concerns in a situation like this. Windscreens are replaced every day up and down the country and can be done very quickly compared to the rest of the damage.

The windscreen scratches might tip the underwriters over the edge

 

[Navajo8686]

Without wishing to prejudge any enquiry surely statements like this from Network Rail (on BBC News app) really makes them look stupid IMHO. Trains don't jump off of tracks for no reason.

"Landslip hit area before train derailed - Network Railpublished at 11:26​

11:26​

Network Rail has now confirmed to the BBC that a "landslip" occurred in the area before the train derailed.

But a spokesperson says they are still trying to determine whether the event was the cause of the service coming off the tracks."

 

[Bletchleyite]

If he's doing the latter he's going to find out sharpish that in such situations the railway does REALLY accurate headcounts, but it might be about the numbers I'd expect when you count the staff who'd attend an incident too, from first-aiders giving everyone a once-over to the bus crews.

Or does the story evolve with more accurate information as the day goes on. For example, that 130 figure could include breakfasts given to emergency crews who find themselves in a remote area for an extended period

Probably. That 45 people would be involved in the operation in addition to the passengers isn't improbable - there'll be 6-7 train crew on a morning peak peak Glasgow to start, won't there? Driver, guard, buffet steward, chef and 2-3 first class stewards I think?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Nov 2025 ==

There’ll be more damage underneath, but still not enough to write it off.

It is probably worth dragging up the analogy that in this sense trains are more like houses than cars - because a new one costs so much, it's worth spending far more on repairs than a car- particularly because in this case an outright identical replacement isn't possible, so if they did want to replace it the only sensible option would be a couple more 805s or an 807 and a bit of a rediagramming. Similarly most houses that are badly damaged in fire are rebuilt, not demolished, because it's still usually cheaper than demolishing and rebuilding.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Polmadie depot maybe? Is there anywhere better that's in the right direction for the move?

Didn't the Grayrigg set end up at Crewe works?
Alstom also now has the Widnes facility nearby which is used to Pendolino upgrade work.

 

[Warrior2852]

Didn't the Grayrigg set end up at Crewe works?
Alstom also now has the Widnes facility nearby which is used to Pendolino upgrade work.

As I understand it the line is physically blocked to the south (hence the train derailing in the first place) so any dragging of the unit would have to be to the north, so probably Polmadie.

 

[Efini92]

As I understand it the line is physically blocked to the south (hence the train derailing in the first place) so any dragging of the unit would have to be to the north, so probably Polmadie.

Surely the train is south of the landslip.

 

[duffield]

Without wishing to prejudge any enquiry surely statements like this from Network Rail (on BBC News) really makes them look stupid IMHO. Trains don't jump off of tracks for no reason.

<Landslip hit area before train derailed - Network Railpublished at 11:26​

11:26​

Network Rail has now confirmed to the BBC that a "landslip" occurred in the area before the train derailed.

But a spokesperson says they are still trying to determine whether the event was the cause of the service coming off the tracks.>

It's not stupid, just methodical and cautious. 99 times out of 100 the obvious cause may be the actual cause. One time out of a hundred, the obvious cause is a red herring. In the case of a landslip, there is always the tiny, remote possibility that the train derailed just before hitting it, due to broken rail, a deliberately placed obstruction, or some other cause. In this case, it's pretty clear cut and it's fine for us to say "it was clearly the landslip" but NR need to be absolutely sure before they attribute the cause. The driver should be able to confirm it pretty quickly.

 

[Lawrence18uk]

Nat Rail website is not showing any services along S&C today - only from tomorrow - does that mean freight services are being diverted there and passenger services temporarily withdrawn?

 

[Spartacus]

Without wishing to prejudge any enquiry surely statements like this from Network Rail (on BBC News) really makes them look stupid IMHO. Trains don't jump off of tracks for no reason.

<Landslip hit area before train derailed - Network Railpublished at 11:26​

11:26​

Network Rail has now confirmed to the BBC that a "landslip" occurred in the area before the train derailed.

But a spokesperson says they are still trying to determine whether the event was the cause of the service coming off the tracks.>

They don't come off for no reason, but just because there was a landslip, and a relatively minor one at that, doesn't mean there might not have been another cause, or at least contributory factor, so that in other circumstances a derailment wouldn't have occured.

Reminds me of reading a tale of a WWII US airman, parachuting from his stricken aircraft, who fired off a few shots at the lurking Japanese fighter with his pistol, who had probably been hoping to shoot him when he was descending under the parachute. The Japanese aircraft suddenly flicked over and fell from the sky. Did he shoot him down, a lucky remarkable shot? No, the Japanese pilot just flew too slow trying to get his kill & stalled his aircraft, recovering out of sight at a lower altitude.

 

[SuspectUsual]

The driver should be able to confirm it pretty quickly

Probably, but not certainly - after all it will have been dark at the time

 

[Warrior2852]

Nat Rail website is not showing any services along S&C today - only from tomorrow - does that mean freight services are being diverted there and passenger services temporarily withdrawn?

NRE still listing departures from stations along the line e.g. Settle as On Time. Including a Leeds-bound service that's currently between Dent and Ribblehead.

 

[Peter749]

Nat Rail website is not showing any services along S&C today - only from tomorrow - does that mean freight services are being diverted there and passenger services temporarily withdrawn?

Northern Services are still shown running over the S&C - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...03/0600-2000?stp=WVS&show=passenger&order=wtt

 

[Lawrence18uk]

Interesting, so the NR Journey Planner shows nothing (perhaps deliberately) but the live departures board is confirming that they're running.