Haymarket to Dalmeny electrification

[Davester50]

Maybe so, but the Scotrail BEMUs (not Bi-modes, as there won't be diesel engines) literally can't enter service until a certain amount of electrification is delivered

They also can't enter service if they're not ordered, or even close to it, let alone the usual slippage of entering service from delivery.

The Fife Circle was the last of the Lowland/Central Belt to be completed in the original plan, it's striking that only 8 trains a day will use it for a considerable time.
Extending from Dunblane north would benefit far more trains sooner.

 

[waverley47]

They also can't enter service if they're not ordered, or even close to it, let alone the usual slippage of entering service from delivery.

The Fife Circle was the last of the Lowland/Central Belt to be completed in the original plan, it's striking that only 8 trains a day will use it for a considerable time.
Extending from Dunblane north would benefit far more trains sooner.

You can't electrify north of Dunblane though. If you did that, you'd end up electrifying as far as Hilton Jn, and it would be used by two train per day; the up and down Highland Chieftan.

 

[Davester50]

Why stop there, why not keep going?

 

[waverley47]

Why stop there, why not keep going?

You can't go as far as Perth until the station is remodelled.

The layout currently doesn't work for electrification, from a signalling and track perspective. The station itself needs a full rebuild, which will happen before electrification.

 

[najaB]

You can't go as far as Perth until the station is remodelled.

Not to mention Moncrieffe tunnel - I'm lead to believe that it's problematic for electrification. Not impossible, but less than ideal.

 

[Davester50]

Fair enough.
The point remains, it's 8 trains out of 220 that are going to be using the partial wires before 2030 at the very very earliest.

 

[Russel]

Maybe so, but the Scotrail BEMUs (not Bi-modes, as there won't be diesel engines) literally can't enter service until a certain amount of electrification is delivered, across this project and a few others in Scotland. And fully electrifying the fife circle necessarily requires some parts of it to be electrified first (it is obviously not all going to be ready at the same time). For the second option, you would also have to wait for Scotrail to get more EMUs, as they are already short.

This has come up before, both around the projects involving Barrhead and East Kilbride, and around Fife. What I really don't get is why people get so upset about certain new infrastructure not being fully used from day one. It's kind of unavoidable? There will be trains useing it from day one, and the number of trains that use it will increase over time. That is a good outcome, so what are people unhappy about?

I'm not unhappy, electrification is good, but given it's only going to be used by a hand full of trains a day and the Bi-Mode units are no where near being ordered, it does seem a strange choice to electrify it so early, surly lines such as the Maryhill line in Glasgow would have been more of a priority?

 

[hexagon789]

I'm not unhappy, electrification is good, but given it's only going to be used by a hand full of trains a day and the Bi-Mode units are no where near being ordered, it does seem a strange choice to electrify it so early, surly lines such as the Maryhill line in Glasgow would have been more of a priority?

The Maryhill line can't be readily electrified in full due to clearances under the canal.

It's likely it'll get discontinuous electrification to get round that and thus require Battery-EMUs.

 

[John R]

I'm not unhappy, electrification is good, but given it's only going to be used by a hand full of trains a day and the Bi-Mode units are no where near being ordered, it does seem a strange choice to electrify it so early, surly lines such as the Maryhill line in Glasgow would have been more of a priority?

Given there won’t be enough emus to run even all electric services on rhe East Kilbride line, what do you propose running on the Maryhill line?

A handful of spare units from elsewhere isn’t viable either as the costs involved in operating a small micro fleet would likely outweigh any cost benefits of electrification.

 

[Rick1984]

I think the problem more is the delay in getting the new trains ordered and delivered.
Better this situation than say the one with Avanti where they can't fully use there new class 807 due to inadequate electrical infrastructure

 

[EMU303]

Without wishing to go off topic, does the Maryhill line need any work to enable BEMUs? It takes a diesel train about 20 mins from Queen St to the terminus at Anniesland. So a BEMU would easily cope with a max 50 min end to end journey given it will be using the wires at Queen St and through the tunnel to Cowlairs. If a bit more juice was needed then stitch up a few more metres at Anniesland.

I’m assuming the pantograph would be retractable so no height issues in tight tunnels.

 

[hwl]

A few reminders on Scotrail electrification priorities - it is heavily intertwined in rolling stock replacement:
1. Have enough EMUs to run a) all services that can as EMU and b) all EMU services at sensible length, both to reduce DMU requirements
2. Get enough wires up to enable 156/153 replacement (either directly or via cascades) with a mix of full and partial electrification
3. Get enough wires up to enable 158 replacement (either directly or via cascades) with a mix of full and partial electrification

Hence for you need to hit routes with lots of DMUs (156/158/170). Ignoring HST and their 222 replacement for the moment - though 222s will help free up some 170s etc which also helps!).

The minimum electrification for getting to 2. requires:
Full electrification: Barrhead, EK
Partial electrification: Fife and Borders

Then looking at minimum (partial) electrification (i.e. quick) for getting to 3. shows that you need to hit the Dunblane - Perth - Dundee - Aberdeen axis (including Perth station rebuild).

After 3. there is a bit of breather before 170/222 replacement (or more realistically reducing in usage levels as they get near end of life) hence there will be split priorities:
Infills in partial electrified areas to allow more EMUs and cascades of battery units and electrification to enable the long distance fleet to be EMU (and electric freight).

 

[Davester50]

Given there won’t be enough emus to run even all electric services on rhe East Kilbride line, what do you propose running on the Maryhill line?

A handful of spare units from elsewhere isn’t viable either as the costs involved in operating a small micro fleet would likely outweigh any cost benefits of electrification.

I mean, the 321 to 320s aren't a microfleet and there was an opportunity to pick up more but squandered.
Just complete the gaps, and stop faffing with discontinuous - i.e. incomplete - schemes.

 

[The exile]

I mean, the 321 to 320s aren't a microfleet and there was an opportunity to pick up more but squandered.
Just complete the gaps, and stop faffing with discontinuous - i.e. incomplete - schemes.

Other than Maryhill (see above) what gaps are we talking about?

 

[Davester50]

Other than Maryhill (see above) what gaps are we talking about?

The ones being left with incomplete electrification that won't see an electric train, rather than a bi-mode, before 2030 at the earliest.
I just find this piecemeal approach bizarre.

 

[EMU303]

The ones being left with incomplete electrification that won't see an electric train, rather than a bi-mode, before 2030 at the earliest.
I just find this piecemeal approach bizarre.

Presumably discontinuous electrification allows faster replacement of ageing diesel units, especially with respect to limited funds.

 

[The exile]

The ones being left with incomplete electrification that won't see an electric train, rather than a bi-mode, before 2030 at the earliest.
I just find this piecemeal approach bizarre.

The thing is that we’re at the stage where electrification means embarking on something new. Funds are very limited so some kind of bi-mode units are an inevitability. Islands of electrification where it can be done relatively cheaply at least means something will happen, though my opinion is.that the gaps will need to filled eventually.

 

[waverley47]

The ones being left with incomplete electrification that won't see an electric train, rather than a bi-mode, before 2030 at the earliest.
I just find this piecemeal approach bizarre.

I think this is still the best way I can describe what's happening and the thinking behind it

The BEMU plan is particularly interesting. The 222s are coming to Scotland, and everybody knows that they are. Once the 222s arrive, there will be enough, and reliability should be good enough, to run pretty much everything between the Central Belt and Inverness/Aberdeen with the 222s, prioritising the Inverness services first.

That buys you enough space in the 158/170s to start splitting diagrams across the country at Perth and at Arbroath. That leaves you with a sizeable chunk of the fleet confined to services across the Central Belt. Currently the 158/170 fleet runs the following services:

2tph Edinburgh - Tweedbank
1tph Edinburgh - Cowdenbeath
1tph Edinburgh - Leven via Dunfermline
1tph Edinburgh - Leven via Kirkcaldy
1tph Edinburgh - Perth via Ladybank
1tph Edinburgh - Dundee via Kirkcaldy
1tph Glasgow Queen Street - Dundee (some extended to Arbroath)
1tp2h Dundee - Arbroath
Plus, some of the Anniesland services

That is the full complement of Central Belt services run by the 158/170 fleet, and, crucially, are worked by units from Haymarket and Eastfield (some of the 158s stable at Corkerhill, but that's not important). It amounts to about 32 diagrams south of the Perth - Arbroath line at any given time, although some units do transfer back and forward from Aberdeen/Inverness to the Central Belt on passenger services, which should be eliminated with the 222 fleet. The longest distance currently run off the wires are the Dundee and Perth services, which conveniently will find themselves running under the wires for about half of the route, following the commissioning of the wires around Glenrothes. Units which out-stable do so at Tweedbank (soon to be wired), Leven (soon to be wired), Perth Depot and Dundee (to be wired).

The highest priority for Scotrail is to be able to bin off the suburban fleet from Haymarket and Eastfield depots. Space there is severely limited, especially at Haymarket, and switching the Anniesland, Fife Circle, Tweedbank, Perth and Dundee services over to the BEMUs would allow you a uniform fleet. Following the commission of all planned electrification, none of these services would spend more than two hours, or about 120 miles off the wires (Dunblane to Arbroath and back), less when Dundee to Arbroath is wired. That allows an internal cascade, with the 158/170s transferring to Aberdeen and bolstering services, replacing the worst 156s on the G&SW routes, and the 158s potentially (although gauging issues may need to be addressed) on the West Highland.

 

[68000]

The ones being left with incomplete electrification that won't see an electric train, rather than a bi-mode, before 2030 at the earliest.
I just find this piecemeal approach bizarre.

It is not bizarre at all, it is actually quite sensible. The whole strategy is driven by the cliff edge of replacing aging electric & diesel fleets in a joined up way.

 

[Davester50]

The thing is that we’re at the stage where electrification means embarking on something new. Funds are very limited so some kind of bi-mode units are an inevitability. Islands of electrification where it can be done relatively cheaply at least means something will happen, though my opinion is.that the gaps will need to filled eventually.

So we're buying more expensive units at the off, carrying around more weight for no good reason, using more energy lugging about these batteries, adding to increased track wear?
These aren't good things, it's short-termism that's indicative of the state of the country.

Do the job properly first time.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Without wishing to go off topic, does the Maryhill line need any work to enable BEMUs? It takes a diesel train about 20 mins from Queen St to the terminus at Anniesland. So a BEMU would easily cope with a max 50 min end to end journey given it will be using the wires at Queen St and through the tunnel to Cowlairs. If a bit more juice was needed then stitch up a few more metres at Anniesland.

I’m assuming the pantograph would be retractable so no height issues in tight tunnels.

The Anniesland shuttle would have been the first Scotrail trial with BEMUs if they were serious. A converted 321 of which there have been plenty, fitted with batteries. The unit would climb Cowlairs on AC, then drop the pan and run on batteries to Anniesland, presumably into the unwired bay. If necessary a charging rail above the bay strapped over from the 25Kv in the main platforms would allow the BEMU to charge whilst at the platform, then drop the pan and run on batteries back to Cowlairs where the pan would be raised for the batteries to be charged on the descent back into Queen st, although the regen should take care of most of it.

I think it was an opportunity missed for Scotrail to gain practical battery operation experience, prior to other routes.

 

[waverley47]

The Anniesland shuttle would have been the first Scotrail trial with BEMUs if they were serious. A converted 321 of which there have been plenty, fitted with batteries. The unit would climb Cowlairs on AC, then drop the pan and run on batteries to Anniesland, presumably into the unwired bay. If necessary a charging rail above the bay strapped over from the 25Kv in the main platforms would allow the BEMU to charge whilst at the platform, then drop the pan and run on batteries back to Cowlairs where the pan would be raised for the batteries to be charged on the descent back into Queen st, although the regen should take care of most of it.

I think it was an opportunity missed for Scotrail to gain practical battery operation experience, prior to other routes.

I think the 230 and 769 debacles, along with the quiet ending of the 379 trial, have given the UK more than enough evidence for why trying to retrofit new traction types onto units that weren't designed for them, is a bad idea.

There are many, many reasons why this course of action is not the perfect one. However, from where I'm sitting, with experience of these long term projects and the sheer costs involved, it does seem like it is a course of action that will work. Perfect, as they say, is too often the enemy of good. I'd love wires up from Tweedbank to Tain; alas, I am confident I will not live to see it. In our world, without limitless funds, this does seem a bit of a bodge, I will agree.

The important part is that the logic behind the plan that we have is sound. This is a plan, that, if carried out to it's fullness and with the continued confidence of those with the purse strings, will result in material benefits.

 

[Davester50]

I think the 230 and 769 debacles, along with the quiet ending of the 379 trial, have given the UK more than enough evidence for why trying to retrofit new traction types onto units that weren't designed for them, is a bad idea.

Agreed. Additional straight electric sets, particularly ones of the type that they already lease for these infill projects already completed but understocked is quite remarkable that they weren't taken on.

There are many, many reasons why this course of action is not the perfect one.

Not looking for perfection. Just the tried and tested with the Sparks Effect route electrification that's been proven countless times.

However, from where I'm sitting, with experience of these long term projects and the sheer costs involved, it does seem like it is a course of action that will work.

We'll see.

Perfect, as they say, is too often the enemy of good.

Again, we're not wanting perfection. Just something that is proven to work.

I'd love wires up from Tweedbank to Tain;

Lets just start with completing one line, or route?

alas, I am confident I will not live to see it.

Similar.

In our world, without limitless funds, this does seem a bit of a bodge, I will agree.

Adding complexity adds to the cost. It's an expensive bodge.

The important part is that the logic behind the plan that we have is sound. This is a plan, that, if carried out to it's fullness and with the continued confidence of those with the purse strings, will result in material benefits.

At a higher end cost.

 

[John R]

Presumably discontinuous electrification allows faster replacement of ageing diesel units, especially with respect to limited funds.

I think this is a key point. Scotrail has a lot of dmus which are well past their best before date and need replacing very soon. Discontinuous electrification gets rid of them sooner, and avoids a situation whereby Scotrail is forced into a very suboptimal solution to keep those services running. It also allows a procurement of a large emu/bemu fleet in one go, which presumably has economies of scale, rather than needing a handful of extra units every year or so as electrification gradually reaches more places.

 

[HighlandStorm]

So we're buying more expensive units at the off, carrying around more weight for no good reason, using more energy lugging about these batteries, adding to increased track wear?
These aren't good things, it's short-termism that's indicative of the state of the country.

Do the job properly first time.

Arguably it’s the opposite of short-termism, it’s part of a rolling plan out to the 2040s. It ties infrastructure with rolling stock replacement to avoid requiring to replace life expired DMUs with new diesel units, while meeting the objective to keep a steady drumbeat of physical electrification work in progress to avoid repeated feast and famine situations, thus increasing the cost of electrification by a margin far above that of some batteries.

The alternative is to stand down the electrification teams, break up the skill sets and face all the problems and costs of starting that from scratch once the difficult infrastructure bits have been designed and adapted for full electrification. Better to do that design and build while the electrification teams are plodding on somewhere more straight forward.

The BEMUs can cascade out as gaps are filled and more sections of wires go live. That seems a lot less short termism, than having a brand new fleet of DMUs which would provide a perverse incentive to stall the electrification.

The Maryhill line is doable with batteries, but installing OHLE on as much as possible gives more options for the WHL. Where there is an aspiration for a hourly service to/from Crianlarich. Hi-trans is pursuing a station for Faslane and electrification to at least Garelochead.

 

[Davester50]

Arguably it’s the opposite of short-termism, it’s part of a rolling plan out to the 2040s. It ties infrastructure with rolling stock replacement to avoid requiring to replace life expired DMUs with new diesel units, while meeting the objective to keep a steady drumbeat of physical electrification work in progress to avoid repeated feast and famine situations.

Disagree.
Moving the problem to the train as opposed to fixing the infrastructure which will outlive the trains by a considerable period is the exact definition of short-termism.

The alternative is to stand down the electrification teams, break up the skill sets and face all the problems and costs of starting that from scratch once the difficult infrastructure bits have been designed and adapted for full electrification. Better to do that design and build while the electrification teams are plodding on somewhere more straight forward.

Just finish one line. Take the difficult decision now, and stop putting it off.

 

[HighlandStorm]

Disagree.
Moving the problem to the train as opposed to fixing the infrastructure which will outlive the trains by a considerable period is the exact definition of short-termism.



Just finish one line. Take the difficult decision now, and stop putting it off.

Quick googling suggests per km cost in Scotland is falling, single track km cost reduced from £2.7m to £2m since 2020 in a period plagued by very high inflation affecting the construction industry.

In contrast the single track km figure in England appear to have increased by at least as much as it has been reduced in Scotland.

What do you envisage the rolling stock scenario will be for your approach?

 

[John R]

Just finish one line. Take the difficult decision now, and stop putting it off.

And what do you do with the fleet of dmus that will be over 40 years old and need replacing in the next 5 years?

 

[Davester50]

And what do you do with the fleet of dmus that will be over 40 years old and need replacing in the next 5 years?

Ask the people who took on the 40+ Year old fleet to do front line services for another 10 years?

 

[GraphitProjekt]

Arguably it’s the opposite of short-termism, it’s part of a rolling plan out to the 2040s. It ties infrastructure with rolling stock replacement to avoid requiring to replace life expired DMUs with new diesel units, while meeting the objective to keep a steady drumbeat of physical electrification work in progress to avoid repeated feast and famine situations, thus increasing the cost of electrification by a margin far above that of some batteries.

The alternative is to stand down the electrification teams, break up the skill sets and face all the problems and costs of starting that from scratch once the difficult infrastructure bits have been designed and adapted for full electrification. Better to do that design and build while the electrification teams are plodding on somewhere more straight forward.

I agree with this. Battery/AC EMUs can allow for electrification to be used sooner and to be phased in the most cost effective way (keeping teams working). The reason why I'm very sceptical of this approach most of the time is because it's extremely tempting for it to be used as an excuse to not electrify ever, and just have a discontinuous system long term on lines that need more than that. However, I feel Scotland's track record in this regard is better, so I slightly trust ScotRail more to use discontinuous electrification correctly as a stepping stone in the way that I don't at all in England. The fact you see announcements like the grid connection in Dundee means they seem pretty serious about keeping electrification work in the pipeline