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ScotRail Suburban Fleet (EMU and BEMU) Market Engagement

Fife coaster

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Let’s be honest the 156 will need to be replaced first these are the oldest diesels bar the HST’s so the BEMU is not an option for WHL. East Kilbride their is only enough electrics to cover one diagram so 156s aren’t going any .The initial 158s will need replaced these were the first built as scotrail was the first part of regional railways to get them the non refurbished ones are really awful now. transport Scotland and the Scottish government have let this go on for to long. They all need replacing instead of chasing the 222s a fleet of class 800s bimodes are the answer for intercity 7 future proo.
 
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JumpinTrainz

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The numbers quoted above certainly do not include replacement of the rather large class 334 fleet, which in any case, could probably if maintained and refurbished go on until 2040. Possibly if an option is taken up for more of the electric model these could be changed. I would also have said that 28 battery electric will probably only take care of a very small proportion of the dmu fleet requirement. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure this is a much scaled-down version of the original fleet replacement plan outlined a couple of years back. And as to the question about why they need someone else to manage the engagement process, did they not engage themselves a couple of years back and come up looking pretty empty? Ferry scandal has somewhat dented faith in the Scottish government being able to manage any major project and made manufacturers of big ticket items such as trains run, scared. Certainly as somebody who used on a self-employed freelance basis to be a Scottish government supplier is now very wary of dealing with them
It’s disappointing that it’s certainly looking that way. The original plan was to replace 318s, 320s, 334s, 156s and 158s. It makes perfect sense to replace these in the one go to keep the fleet more standardised. Yes it’s an expense but it’s an expense they are going to have to deal with sooner rather than later. The 318s in particular are 40 next year.
 

Davester50

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It’s disappointing that it’s certainly looking that way. The original plan was to replace 318s, 320s, 334s, 156s and 158s. It makes perfect sense to replace these in the one go to keep the fleet more standardised. Yes it’s an expense but it’s an expense they are going to have to deal with sooner rather than later. The 318s in particular are 40 next year.
158s in Inverness are used in a different way than the Central Belt though.
You'd hope while the basic train would be standard, the interior would be quite different.
 

JumpinTrainz

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158s in Inverness are used in a different way than the Central Belt though.
You'd hope while the basic train would be standard, the interior would be quite different.
Quite - the interiors could be modified for these particular routes. Opting for something Siemens or Hitachi build would aid the standardisation of the full fleet.
 

RUK

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Opting for something Siemens or Hitachi build would aid the standardisation of the full fleet.
SIEMENS’ current offering in the U.K. market is a newer model, the Desiro Verve, which looks different, like this: 1752478862020.jpeg
Ironically, the non-gangway version has angled headlights which look more like that of the Class 380 (though are not the same, since the ones on the Desiro Verve are more rounded - the Desiro Verve non-gangway version looks like the SIEMENS Mireo, which is their replacement for the Desiro and current model in main-land Europe), whereas the gangway version looks like the Desiro City, like a Class 717 with a gangway stuck on the outside, but vertical, not slanted/angled as on the Class 380.
 

Peter0124

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Whats the issue with keeping the 318s longer and replacing the 320s first? The 318s are superior comfort wise.
 

Energy

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It'll be interesting to see if the Scot Gov/Transport Scotland will stick with Siemens and Hitachi or go with another manufacture.

I'm assuming (given the numbers in the procurement request) that some BREL units will remain in the ScotRail fleet into the late 2030s and possibly even into the early 2040s?
Transport Scotland ordered the 380s (admittedly in 2008, so 17 years ago...) but Abellio ordered the 385s. Supposidly the First bid was for more 385s.
 

Carntyne

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Transport Scotland ordered the 380s (admittedly in 2008, so 17 years ago...) but Abellio ordered the 385s. Supposidly the First bid was for more 385s.
First ordered the 380s. Abellio ordered the 385s.

In reality neither ordered anything without sign off from Transport Scotland.
 

Mag_seven

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Just a gentle reminder that this is a Traction and Rolling Stock thread to discuss the Scotrail suburban fleet replacement.
For discussion of the funding of transport in Scotland more generally please use this thread:
 

waverley47

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Jumping into this thread, and updating my master list of tenders, I feel like I can shed some light.


Going for a coffee with people I know at TS, there are a couple of interesting points brought up. From these conversations, I have a much better idea of what their desire is at this point, however, obviously, plans may change when manufacturers come back with a bid.


EMUs

Firstly, there is a general wish for this fleet to be broadly inter-compatible, uniform and of one single modular design. There will not be separate suburban and metro style units, instead carriage lengths, seating layouts and door placements will be the same. The desire is for a standard 23/24m carriage length with doors at 1/4 and 3/4 (TS and Scotrail have been incredibly pleased by the capacity of the 385s to soak up passengers, especially on the E&G routes). They will be high acceleration, 100mph capable designs, although depending on acceleration profiles, 90mph max wouldn't be the end of the world.

Its likely that most, if not all, of the pure EMUs will be a uniform fleet of 5 cars. These would be the ones intended for low-level routes through the Argyll and North Clyde lines, the Cathcart Circle and the Glasgow Southside lines. Five car length, walk through and level boarding EMUs will fundamentally transform the passenger experience, however would also mean that ticket inspectors get to travel the whole train, which has been a long desire for Scotrail on the Glasgow urban network. You lose some length going for 5x23m, however you save capacity from the cabs in the middle, 5x24m would be a net increase in capacity from 2x3x20m, again due to the cabs in the middle. The whole network is set up as a 6x20m railway, so you don't have to much around with platform lengths anywhere.

Some of the EMUs may end up being three cars, depending on whether or not shuffling the 280s off the Glasgow Southside routes allows you to fully turn Inverclyde over to the Desiros, and whether or not the 334s can be sweated beyond 2035. The 380s are already 23.5m length cars, and so Inverclyde can take 6x23m. The 334s are not, and going for a uniform fleet would mean you'd need to find alternative stabling space, but that's neither here nor there.

Basically, the fleet of EMUs sees off everything that isn't a 380, 385, and perhaps the 334s. They would be based at Shields, Yoker, Corkerhill and Bathgate.

BEMUs*

The BEMU plan is particularly interesting. The 222s are coming to Scotland, and everybody knows that they are. Once the 222s arrive, there will be enough, and reliability should be good enough, to run pretty much everything between the Central Belt and Inverness/Aberdeen with the 222s, prioritising the Inverness services first.

That buys you enough space in the 158/170s to start splitting diagrams across the country at Perth and at Arbroath. That leaves you with a sizeable chunk of the fleet confined to services across the Central Belt. Currently the 158/170 fleet runs the following services:

2tph Edinburgh - Tweedbank
1tph Edinburgh - Cowdenbeath
1tph Edinburgh - Leven via Dunfermline
1tph Edinburgh - Leven via Kirkcaldy
1tph Edinburgh - Perth via Ladybank
1tph Edinburgh - Dundee via Kirkcaldy
1tph Glasgow Queen Street - Dundee (some extended to Arbroath)
1tp2h Dundee - Arbroath
Plus, some of the Anniesland services

That is the full complement of Central Belt services run by the 158/170 fleet, and, crucially, are worked by units from Haymarket and Eastfield (some of the 158s stable at Corkerhill, but that's not important). It amounts to about 32 diagrams south of the Perth - Arbroath line at any given time, although some units do transfer back and forward from Aberdeen/Inverness to the Central Belt on passenger services, which should be eliminated with the 222 fleet. The longest distance currently run off the wires are the Dundee and Perth services, which conveniently will find themselves running under the wires for about half of the route, following the commissioning of the wires around Glenrothes. Units which out-stable do so at Tweedbank (soon to be wired), Leven (soon to be wired), Perth Depot and Dundee (to be wired).

The highest priority for Scotrail is to be able to bin off the suburban fleet from Haymarket and Eastfield depots. Space there is severely limited, especially at Haymarket, and switching the Anniesland, Fife Circle, Tweedbank, Perth and Dundee services over to the BEMUs would allow you a uniform fleet. Following the commission of all planned electrification, none of these services would spend more than two hours, or about 120 miles off the wires (Dunblane to Arbroath and back), less when Dundee to Arbroath is wired. That allows an internal cascade, with the 158/170s transferring to Aberdeen and bolstering services, replacing the worst 156s on the G&SW routes, and the 158s potentially (although gauging issues may need to be addressed) on the West Highland.

TS wants a uniform fleet of high capacity, suburban layout, doors at 1/4 and 3/4, 3x23/24m units. This actually increases capacity (3/6x23m) versus the current set up, where units run as any combination of 2/3/4/5/6 cars.



*I think I'm going to start using BEMUs (battery electric multiple unit) as opposed to BMUs (bi-mode multiple unit) as a stylistic decision, just to try and standardise what it is that we are actually talking about, as bi-mode can mean a plethora of different things depending on the context.
 

SC318250

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One issue I see with above is depot space at Shields, Yoker, and Bathgate.

If you put a 5 car in one of the stabling roads or shed roads at these depots, chances are you aint getting another in on top.. yes Shields has a few stabling roads that are longer
 

FlybeDash8Q400

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One issue I see with above is depot space at Shields, Yoker, and Bathgate.

If you put a 5 car in one of the stabling roads or shed roads at these depots, chances are you aint getting another in on top.. yes Shields has a few stabling roads that are longer
I was told there was a similar and embarrassing flaw with Ilford when Greater Anglia switched from 12 car 321’s/360’s - which was the longest Ilford could hold, to 5/10 car 720’s. Not sure how they get around it now but point I guess is, you can’t waste the space. How this wasn’t noticed in advance who knows!

Back to ScotRail, I think further issues are that a lot of the platforms the trains fit rather snug. Plenty of the Glasgow suburban platforms would need extended if you go beyond the current lengths. Yes you could go down the selective door opening idea but wouldn’t this cause blockages at junction stations where the platforms are effectively just beyond a junction? I can’t see how you run bigger trains. 5 cars would only work if it were longer 345 style coaches - ie longer individual carriages.

One last bit on the point above. A current 6 car 320 is just shy of 120m (119.64m to be precise). For example a 5 car version of a 345 (other trains are available) would equate to 114.73m, so the theory suggested in post #40 for sure works. 5 cars can happen it would just need to be the right stock, specifically individual longer carriages.

Refraining from speculation, but this is the sort of criteria the spec will have to adhere to.
 
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RUK

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I was told there was a similar and embarrassing flaw with Ilford when Greater Anglia switched from 12 car 321’s/360’s - which was the longest Ilford could hold, to 5/10 car 720’s. Not sure how they get around it now but point I guess is, you can’t waste the space. How this wasn’t noticed in advance who knows!
They got around it by changing the order so that they became all 5-car units, and no 10-car units.
 

FlybeDash8Q400

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They got around it by changing the order so that they became all 5-car units, and no 10-car units.
Ah yes you’re right. The issue being some of the sidings can only handle up to 8 coaches. Still a waste, but not impossible.
 

FlybeDash8Q400

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They just replaced the 10-car units with double the number of 5-car units for that part of the order.
Yes sorry I meant to mention that bit there!

Makes you wonder what ScotRail’s potential issues are for restrictions. Similar type of stock being replaced.
 

AilsaBus

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Need to remember that some stations are on tight curves, like Partick for example. I think if they went down the 5x23m carriage road it would mean the doors of each carriage would be further away from platforms and the gap on Platform 2 is big and high enough as it is with the current 20m carriages.
 

InOban

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I would hope that the New stock would have extending ramps to give level boarding and to bridge such gaps
 

Peter0124

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Need to remember that some stations are on tight curves, like Partick for example. I think if they went down the 5x23m carriage road it would mean the doors of each carriage would be further away from platforms and the gap on Platform 2 is big and high enough as it is with the current 20m carriages.
Crosshill has a tight curve and is served with 23m 380s
 

FlybeDash8Q400

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If a new 5-car replaces an existing 6-car formation, with similar seating capacity, that shouldn't be an issue?
Only if the train lengths work out the same. It’s a waste otherwise. Current carriages are 20m, new ones would need to be possibly as long as 24m for it to balance out. 23m would seem more likely. As you say that would probably be a similar level of capacity, depending on how it’s laid out of course.
 

Rick1984

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Would a one-size fit all EMU work? The class 385 has a large number of tables for instance and they have problems with overheating on stop-start services like the Cathcart Circle I believe
 

Southsider

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Would a one-size fit all EMU work? The class 385 has a large number of tables for instance and they have problems with overheating on stop-start services like the Cathcart Circle I believe
I think it was Class 334 that was meant to be affected by this though I’m not sure it’s been confirmed.
 

Transilien

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Can the 158s really last past 2030 like the fleet procurement is suggesting? They are nice units, but they really are showing their age!
 

FlybeDash8Q400

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Can the 158s really last past 2030 like the fleet procurement is suggesting? They are nice units, but they really are showing their age!
I think it’s less of a question if they can, but rather that they will as per the spec. There’s no obvious way round that. They’re still steadily reliable, but I would imagine the average time between each fault/failure has lowered. Has an official name but it’s slipped my mind what it is.
 

hexagon789

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I think it’s less of a question if they can, but rather that they will as per the spec. There’s no obvious way round that. They’re still steadily reliable, but I would imagine the average time between each fault/failure has lowered. Has an official name but it’s slipped my mind what it is.
MTIN? Miles per Technical Incident.

Though it's now moved to different metric - MP701D.
 

Charlie978

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You would hope that this BEMU Scotrail order could be done in some level of collaboration with Northern, as they too are looking for a BEMU. Surely it’s not too far fetched after the announcement over the Chiltern/SWR/GWR order.
 

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