• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Virgin cross-channel stock updates

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
29 Aug 2012
Messages
468
Presumably a depot in the UK is needed for those lucrative early morning departures from London. Building anything in the congested and expensive South East of England is not going to be cheap or quick.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Trainbike46

Established Member
Joined
18 Sep 2021
Messages
4,372
Location
belfast
Le Landy depot in Paris where the Eurostars are maintained, is part of a larger coml,ex that makntais TGVs and other SNCf rolling stock. I don’t know the answer, but are there any special arrangements there? (Other than the longer depot shed).
Forest Depot in Brussels also maintains a wide range of trains, including Eurostar (Red&Blue), TGVs and ICEs

Watergraafsmeer in Amsterdam is used for a wide range of trains as well, including Nightjet, ICE, Eurostar (Red&Blue), NS ICNG, etc.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
18,800
Forest Depot in Brussels also maintains a wide range of trains, including Eurostar (Red&Blue), TGVs and ICEs

Watergraafsmeer in Amsterdam is used for a wide range of trains as well, including Nightjet, ICE, Eurostar (Red&Blue), NS ICNG, etc.
There is a big difference between maintenance and overnight servicing. Watergraafsmeer is not a NightJet or Eurostar blue maintainer, for example. It’s just overnight servicing such as cleaning, toilet tanking etc. Maintenance is elsewhere: Temple Mills for Eurostar, Austria for NightJet.
 

Trainbike46

Established Member
Joined
18 Sep 2021
Messages
4,372
Location
belfast
There is a big difference between maintenance and overnight servicing. Watergraafsmeer is not a NightJet or Eurostar blue maintainer, for example. It’s just overnight servicing such as cleaning, toilet tanking etc. Maintenance is elsewhere: Temple Mills for Eurostar, Austria for NightJet.
NS has four maintenance locations: Leidschendam, Onnen, Maastricht (FLIRT only), and Watergraafsmeer; I agree they don't normally do heavy maintenance on non-NS stock, but they do have maintenance facilities. There is also the overhaul facility at Haarlem for midlife refurbishments.

Forest/Vorst is, AIUI, the main maintenance depot for Eurostar Red stock.
 

Astro_Orbiter

Member
Joined
8 Nov 2019
Messages
292
Location
UK
I think trains coming into Paris from Le Landy get security swept on arrival in Paris before going abroad, whereas in London they don't because Temple Mills is also a secure area. Could be wrong though.
 

DanielB

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2020
Messages
1,448
Location
Amersfoort, NL
NS has four maintenance locations: Leidschendam, Onnen, Maastricht (FLIRT only), and Watergraafsmeer; I agree they don't normally do heavy maintenance on non-NS stock, but they do have maintenance facilities. There is also the overhaul facility at Haarlem for midlife refurbishments.
When I'm not mistaken, the ICE3M sets that were owned by NS actually had their maintenance in Leidschendam in their first years.
The foreign stock visiting Amsterdam has certainly been inside the maintenance facility, but as you state there obviously is a difference between regular maintenance and repairing small defects. That's especially the case in Amsterdam: where Onnen, Leidschendam and Maastricht do maintenance only, Watergraafsmeer is a service location as well (of which there are a lot more around the country for services like emptying toilets, small repairs and required checks)
 

Amalie

Member
Joined
5 Feb 2023
Messages
173
Location
The Netherlands
I think trains coming into Paris from Le Landy get security swept on arrival in Paris before going abroad, whereas in London they don't because Temple Mills is also a secure area. Could be wrong though.
I would presume they would still need a security sweep afterwards too though, regardless of where the terminus is. (E.g you wouldn’t want someone taking a Eurostar from Paris to London and leaving a “suspicious” package behind in the train before leaving the train).

That being said, I think we’ve gotten quite a bit off topic from Virgin’s new rolling stock. While they need depot space, ideally in England, and definitely also in all the other countries it would have as end destinations, it’s not a specific problem for Virgin either as Trenitalia and the other new entrants also need to resolve this.
 

rmHawk765

Member
Joined
8 Apr 2025
Messages
769
Location
ECML South
South of France
London to Nice would actually be a very popular route in the summer - however the current Marseille to Ventimiliga line is already at capacity and this won't be viable until LGV PACA is built, if ever.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

That being said, I think we’ve gotten quite a bit off topic from Virgin’s new rolling stock.
To be honest this thread could just become a general discussion for their plans as it was moved from T&R.S. anyway.
 

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
11,124
Location
West Wiltshire
I think we’ve gotten quite a bit off topic from Virgin’s new rolling stock. While they need depot space, ideally in England, and definitely also in all the other countries it would have as end destinations, it’s not a specific problem for Virgin either as Trenitalia and the other new entrants also need to resolve this.
Although Temple Mills is nearest to London, if all they really need in UK is a cleaning and light servicing location (not a maintenance depot, because maintenance is done in Europe) then in theory there are other locations available, so lay a few sidings, and some cleaning walkways

From memory, they include :
1) area east of Rainham, between HS1 and A13
2) area south west of Ebbsfleet station (originally for other development)
3) area couple of miles south of Ebbsfleet, just before Network rail depot alongside A2.

A complication is they could all be deemed green belt, but are more likely the new grey belt classification as adjacent to roads and rail lines, and were partly disturbed during construction of the adjacent major roads.

I think it has also been said that a trio of 200m servicing sidings, could be built alongside north London Line at Camley Street. But it is many years since I have been to Camden Road area, so not sure if anything has been built there, although might be reserved for HS1-HS2 link.
 

Doomotron

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2018
Messages
1,423
Location
Kent
Could the area around Fawkham Junction be hypothetically turned into a depot? Not necessarily just for Virgin, that is.
 

sad1e

Member
Joined
26 Aug 2024
Messages
996
Location
London
although might be reserved for HS1-HS2 link.
The HS1-HS2 link was given up by the government many years ago , but I still doubt there is sufficient space in Camden. Camden's been heavily redeveloped in the past few years.
 

Watershed

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
16,664
Location
UK
Could the area around Fawkham Junction be hypothetically turned into a depot? Not necessarily just for Virgin, that is.
That would seem the most plausible candidate, I would have thought.
 

Peter Mugridge

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Apr 2010
Messages
17,834
Location
Epsom
That would seem the most plausible candidate, I would have thought.
It's certainly where I'd build one - and I'd leave the connection to the classic line in place so that components could be delivered by rail without having to involve the high speed line.

Question: Is the site level, though? I seem to recall it's a constant gradient between the classic line and the high speed line? That might require a lot of preparatory earthworks to create a level site - maybe have it off to one side of the link and connected to the link by a triangular junction?
 

Class15

Established Member
Joined
30 Dec 2021
Messages
4,134
Location
North London or Mildmay line
The HS1-HS2 link was given up by the government many years ago , but I still doubt there is sufficient space in Camden. Camden's been heavily redeveloped in the past few years.
I think the only vaguely realistic way of doing it is to convert the Primrose Hill line into a HS1-HS2 connection. This would mean sending all freight via Hampstead, which is not ideal but not the end of the world.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,801
I think the only vaguely realistic way of doing it is to convert the Primrose Hill line into a HS1-HS2 connection. This would mean sending all freight via Hampstead, which is not ideal but not the end of the world.

How do you get from HS2 to Primrose Hill?
 

rmHawk765

Member
Joined
8 Apr 2025
Messages
769
Location
ECML South
How do you get from HS2 to Primrose Hill?
I guess with a connection from HS2 to the WCML in the Willesden area, but at that point you might as well build a dedicated connection bypassing the WCML. That said I'm not too sure of the geography in this area and whether it's even possible.
 

RUK

Member
Joined
5 Aug 2009
Messages
453
Location
East of England
Where would they use tilt?
Virgin has proposed through running to Manchester - from another thread:
The ORR has made its decision on the use of spare maintenance capacity at Temple Mills depot in east London, for new Channel Tunnel services.
It has approved the Virgin proposal and turned down similar proposals from Eurostar (expansion), Evolyn, Gemini and Trenitalia.

This is the ORR decision letter to the applicants:


So the way is now clear for Virgin Trains Europe to proceed to negotiate track, station and depot access for services to start in 2030, using Avelia Stream rolling stock.
Generally, Virgin's proposals were considered more robust and deliverable than those of the other new applicants, and had strong support from Alstom.

Two morsels mentioned in the ORR letter are that Virgin added the possibility of through running to Manchester* in recent submissions, and Siemens offered the prospect of train assembly in the UK for the Gemini proposal using Velaro trains.
There also appeared to be some technical issues with the Trenitalia rolling stock proposal (with Hitachi trains).

* any suggestion of reaching Manchester would imply using UK-gauge trains.
 
Last edited:

BahrainLad

Member
Joined
3 Aug 2015
Messages
411
If one gets the crayon out, a HS1 - WCML link could be built reasonably easily by re-instating four tracking of the NLL between the MML bridge and Kentish Town Road, and then moving the Overground onto the new track. Leaving the existing track for a HS1-WCML link. It would require demolition of the dental surgery here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/tu31cDpxStzghu2L8 which is obviously a shame, but as a project it would probably be easier than what was done over Borough Market for Thameslink, for example.

Oh yes - also reinstating a platform at Caledonian Road & Barnsbury, and both disused platforms at Camden Road (as you'd be moving the Overground onto the 'northern' two of the four lines).
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,801
If one gets the crayon out, a HS1 - WCML link could be built reasonably easily by re-instating four tracking of the NLL between the MML bridge and Kentish Town Road, and then moving the Overground onto the new track. Leaving the existing track for a HS1-WCML link. It would require demolition of the dental surgery here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/tu31cDpxStzghu2L8 which is obviously a shame, but as a project it would probably be easier than what was done over Borough Market for Thameslink, for example.

Oh yes - also reinstating a platform at Caledonian Road & Barnsbury, and both disused platforms at Camden Road (as you'd be moving the Overground onto the 'northern' two of the four lines).

A link is already there. The issue is there is no capacity on the WCML for such a service, but that’s a different problem.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
35,801
Will there be capacity once HS2 is built? The Virgin service won’t be starting for quite a few years yet.

Depends which HS2 gets built. If HS2 doesnt go to Manchester, then no.
 

Doomotron

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2018
Messages
1,423
Location
Kent
Wouldn't Manchester Piccadilly need to be rebuilt anyway to take any international trains?

On the trains themselves, if HS2 ever was extended to Manchester then I'd assume UIC-gauge Velaros would be the likely candidate (or more of whatever they're getting now). But if not, I'm pretty sure Siemens were in talks with First years ago for a UK-gauge version of the ICE TDs, so a UK-gauge Velaro would be a possibility, albeit a distant one like the Manchester service itself.
 

popeter45

Established Member
Joined
7 Dec 2019
Messages
1,489
Location
london
Yes, I can't think of any way to add all the customs/border stuff in, and the only isolatable platform is 1 (unless you blocked access to the bridge from another island).
in theory the bridge across the far end of the platforms could be rebuilt to allow isolation Lille Europe Style that could allow a Secure terminal to the Northeast of the station but even that that would only allow 200m units

also Platform 1 could be extended of the siding next to it is removed
 

ShadowKnight

Member
Joined
22 Oct 2019
Messages
240
Location
Liverpool
If only old Mayfield station was not about to be torn down and redeveloped. It would have been a perfect international terminal in Manchester
 

nwales58

Established Member
Joined
15 Mar 2022
Messages
1,365
Location
notsure
Needs 400m, preferably straight and level.

Which is why HS2 ended up alongside and/or below the existing station on the northern side.
 

Doomotron

Established Member
Joined
25 Jun 2018
Messages
1,423
Location
Kent
If only old Mayfield station was not about to be torn down and redeveloped. It would have been a perfect international terminal in Manchester
Not really. It could have been useful if an international terminus was somehow built out of the existing terminating platforms, with regional services being transferred to Mayfield. But the platforms just aren’t long enough to be used for international trains directly.
 

Citybreak1

Member
Joined
14 Mar 2022
Messages
483
Location
Scotland
Wonder why they will only run 7 coaches this is less than half the 16 coaches Eurostar have? Will surely mean prices remain high
 

Sorcerer

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2022
Messages
2,078
Location
Liverpool
Wonder why they will only run 7 coaches this is less than half the 16 coaches Eurostar have? Will surely mean prices remain high
If Getlink charge by the passenger then it might actually end up being lower because they don't have to fill as many seats. Track access charges of HS1 might offset this potential benefit though. Seven coaches is the standard off-shelf configuration for New Pendolino trains with roughly 26m coaches, but I imagine being combined with the AGV into the Avelia platform it'll end up being longer. Probably eight 25m coaches to form a full 200m long train as is standard.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top