. If it wasn't obvious enough it was just going after E* it is now.
Not at all related.
I just went down the route of fast Alstom in a similar way to the 395/895s and 397/897s.
Where would they use tilt?
Avelia Stream seems to be an Alstom umbrella term for designs as diverse as the Amtrak Acela, SJ Zefiro Express and NTV Pendolino.
Avelia, not Avelia Stream.
Because of course, you have to have a suitably patriotic name for the US.
I assume they will be UIC gauge, so getting them out of Derby could be a bit complicated.
Not an unreasonable approach actually. Trains in the 8xx range are next-gen high-speed express units, so a New Pendolino could very well be classed in a way where we get 390/890, or it could be 390/391 in the same way Eurostar's stock is 373/374, though I'd consider that quite unlikely since its' not the same operator. The potential stock is arguably more related to the current Pendolinos than the 895s will be to the 395s, so no reason it couldn't be an 890 though.
Forgot about that bit, unless they take them via road to Temple Mills probably not then.
None of the related continental trains have any UK supply chain, and 12x8-car units is hardly enough to invest in new build facilities.
Still no Germany or southern France
As of yesterday (19/8/25), International Railway Journal now has an article titled Virgin sets out details of plans to launch Channel Tunnel train services in 2030, which includes the following:
and
Vague ambitions are nice, but I have more faith in Eurostar's vague ambitions for Switzerland and Germany than in Virgin's for Switzerland, South of France, or Germany!
Interesting that they mention consulting the infrastructure managers in Europe. One had to think that they’ve been given a fairly strong positive indication from all parties to get this far. If SNCF Réseau had turned around and said « jog on Branson » they wouldn’t be bothering signing for trains with Alstom. Their stabling and pathing requirements on the continent are hardly earth shattering so it’s possible they’ve been told by one party or another to get UK depot access before lodging formal requests on the Europe side.
Indeed - appreciate most of the key bits need to be sorted out now, but it does seem that Virgin thinks it’s guaranteed they’ll be offered paths by the ORR when they’re up against the likes of Trenitalia who have much more experience and proven stock with operating international services. That being said, I guess it’s a “wait and see” scenario to see whether they’re actually offered…
Part of me thinks there's a chance Virgin will try to legally challenge any decision to award the paths to Trenitalia if that ever happened.
The issue is Depot access, not paths, is it not? To a lesser extend St Pancras capacity is the other limiting factor. Though potentially a plan that requires less or no depot space in the UK would have a better chance.I think Virgin are being a bit too ambitious considering that they haven't even got any paths for the three capitals route they're after and might not even get them at all. I think Eurostar are probably more likely to get into those markets first, and maybe I'd even go as far as to say that Trenitalia would be more likely to get their London to Milan services. I would love to see a return of Virgin Trains, but we need realistic expectations first and foremost.
Part of me thinks there's a chance Virgin will try to legally challenge any decision to award the paths to Trenitalia if that ever happened.
You're right, it is technically a competition for depot access rather than paths, and to some extent capacity at St. Pancras. But even so it seems Virgin are very confident in their chances, and unlike the WCML open access there's also a realistic chance of it happening. But they are up against Trenitalia who have already made a success in the open-access European high-speed market and will have a much easier time with their rolling stock procurement, so I'd think it wise for them to focus on getting any of the three capitals route before thinking about Germany or Switzerland. I think even Amsterdam is a bit ambitious.
Yes, more what I was getting at from a pathing perspective, St Pancras being the main issue on that front. I do agree though that Temple Mills space will be the deciding factor, but in the end I can still see it going to Trenitalia for the reasons I highlighted above, not to mention your point about the WCML paths they previously applied for.
Genuine question - what's stopping one from going 'fine then, I'll build a depot myself' or what's stopping Trenitalia/Virgin from just using a depot in France?
This is a big one that I think flies under the radar, from chatter in previous threads on Eurostar, I think cross channel trains have to be stored securely, particularly on the European side to prevent someone sneaking aboard and illegally crossing between the UK and Schengen of vice versa.
