Could Northern get additional stock?

[Brubulus]

Moderator note: split from

Northern Future fleet...

Can the units last that long? We hear on this forum that the 150's are "falling to bits". Is this members being overdramatic and actually they are perfectly capable of seeing another 6-8 years service- depending on when any new trains are ready. The 155s and 156s are also pretty old. There...

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The main thing that confuses me about this order is why they aren't going more aggressively in on batteries.

If they can kick the infrastructure can down the road by keeping the 158s and 170s in Phase 1, it should be possible to order a fleet solely of EMUs and battery trains, which would probably save a substantial amount of money.

 

[Harlequinuk]

Could a large buy of 802/2 with battery instead of diesel be in order? South Eastern are looking in that direction instead of infill for third rail, so if north and south get toegther?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Could a large buy of 802/2 with battery instead of diesel be in order? South Eastern are looking in that direction instead of infill for third rail, so if north and south get toegther?

Class 802 is a 26m intercity unit with 125/140mph capability.
Neither Northern nor Southeastern want or need such a high-spec train.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Class 802 is a 26m intercity unit with 125/140mph capability.
Neither Northern nor Southeastern want or need such a high-spec train.

and many Northern stations (at least around Manchester) are only built for 4*24m.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

and many Northern stations (at least around Manchester) are only built for 4*24m.

While I think 20m is the maximum vehicle length allowed on routes into the Southeastern London termini (bar HS1).

 

[Zomboid]

Southeastern's entire operation is electric. Why would they be interested in bi-modes?

I don't see much synergy between those two potential fleets.

 

[rattyben]

Because they're still perfectly usable trains.

If what we want it to grow rail passenger numbers they’re not. You’re not going to encourage the next generation of potential passengers with any of the Sprinters no matter how many coats of paint are applied or new seat covers.

5 years ago was the right time to start ordering replacements for all 15x trains, this order is cutting it close if indeed it happens at all.

 

[Ribbleman]

The current Northern plan is 2031 for a start of replacing the 150/155/156 fleets which given their size will take some time so the units have no option but to last into the early 2030's. The 150's, both Northern and GWR ones, are currently on an overhaul program which is costing big money and time due to corrosion. The corrosion issue is a reason why the TfW 150/2's are going to scrap as they become due overhaul, with parts recovered from them to support the other 150 fleets going then Northern and GWR should be OK.

If Northern get the TfW 158's then they could start a replacement of the 150/155/156 fleets earlier but on a very small scale so early 2030's it is for most of the units.

Replacing the 769s with ex-TfW 158s is a rather more urgent requirement.

 

[Class 323 Fan]

Replacing the 769s with ex-TfW 158s is a rather more urgent requirement.

ex-TFW 158s will probably be needed to strengthen services, like Manchester to Sheffield, 1 train per hour isn’t the best.
And the 769s also need replacing.
Not sure why porterbrook decided it would be a good idea to turn a 30 year old train to bi mode.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Not sure why porterbrook decided it would be a good idea to turn a 30 year old train to bi mode.

It was either that or send them for scrap.

 

[D365]

Not sure why porterbrook decided it would be a good idea to turn a 30 year old train to bi mode.

They were paid to do so.

 

[Class 323 Fan]

It was either that or send them for scrap.

Ohhh ok, they still ran fine before.
There’s a lot more problems with them trains

 

[Class 323 Fan]

Could Northern take on the TFW Class 158s now that TFW are going to be withdrawing them as the new Class 197s come into service.

Northern could use these units to strengthen other services and replace some of their worst sprinter units and class 769s until the new trains arrive in the 2030s.
For example: Manchester to Sheffield is currently an hourly service, if Northern took the 158s, they could strengthen this service to ever 20-30 minutes.
As well as other services on the network.

Currently, some sprinter units are having problems with corrosion, so the units in the worst condition could be sent to scrap as the Class 158s replace them.
And the Class 769s have multiple problems, which do cause delays on the Southport services. Problems include; Pantograph not going up/down, and engines not starting.

If capacity is an issue on some services, an internal cascade could be done, for instance, the Class 150s could move so some longer services can use the Class 158s.

What do you all think?

 

[D365]

Could Northern take on the TFW Class 158s now that TFW are going to be withdrawing them as the new Class 197s come into service.

Northern could use these units to strengthen other services and replace some of their worst sprinter units and class 769s until the new trains arrive in the 2030s.
For example: Manchester to Sheffield is currently an hourly service, if Northern took the 158s, they could strengthen this service to ever 20-30 minutes.
As well as other services on the network.

Currently, some sprinter units are having problems with corrosion, so the units in the worst condition could be sent to scrap as the Class 158s replace them.
And the Class 769s have multiple problems, which do cause delays on the Southport services. Problems include; Pantograph not going up/down, and engines not starting.

If capacity is an issue on some services, an internal cascade could be done, for instance, the Class 150s could move so some longer services can use the Class 158s.

What do you all think?

There are not enough Class 158 vehicles available to do everything that you suggest.

 

[Class 323 Fan]

There are not enough Class 158 vehicles available to do everything that you suggest.

I did think that there wasn’t enough 158s to do the things I suggested, knowing Northern they will take them on, do something similar to my suggestion, and then cancel the services due to a train shortage

 

[778]

If/when Northern get the extra 158s would it not be a good idea to get rid of the 7 155s first as they are a microfleet?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

If/when Northern get the extra 158s would it not be a good idea to get rid of the 7 155s first as they are a microfleet?

The 769s are a much less reliable micro fleet
I'd imagine the 155s aren't too different to the 156s.

 

[Snow1964]

Could Northern take on the TFW Class 158s now that TFW are going to be withdrawing them as the new Class 197s come into service.

Northern could use these units to strengthen other services and replace some of their worst sprinter units and class 769s until the new trains arrive in the 2030s.
For example: Manchester to Sheffield is currently an hourly service, if Northern took the 158s, they could strengthen this service to ever 20-30 minutes.
As well as other services on the network.

Currently, some sprinter units are having problems with corrosion, so the units in the worst condition could be sent to scrap as the Class 158s replace them.
And the Class 769s have multiple problems, which do cause delays on the Southport services. Problems include; Pantograph not going up/down, and engines not starting.

If capacity is an issue on some services, an internal cascade could be done, for instance, the Class 150s could move so some longer services can use the Class 158s.

What do you all think?

Since then TfW have announced a tender for maintenance of 158s for upto 3 years starting April 2026. So assume they are keeping them for a while.

Separately has been talk by some Welsh Government ministers of additional trains due to growth (might be lengthening some by getting additional intermediate vehicles).

Not clear if they are retaining the 158s due to slow introduction of 197s, or keeping them longer pending a top up order being delivered.

But I suspect the Welsh 158s won't be available for a while, and could be as late as 2029, and it's likely Northern will have to have ordered something by then and financed more overhauls on current fleet to keep them going until 2030-31 when new stock may eventually start to arrive.

 

[Class 323 Fan]

Since then TfW have announced a tender for maintenance of 158s for upto 3 years starting April 2026. So assume they are keeping them for a while.

Separately has been talk by some Welsh Government ministers of additional trains due to growth (might be lengthening some by getting additional intermediate vehicles).

Not clear if they are retaining the 158s due to slow introduction of 197s, or keeping them longer pending a top up order being delivered.

But I suspect the Welsh 158s won't be available for a while, and could be as late as 2029, and it's likely Northern will have to have ordered something by then and financed more overhauls on current fleet to keep them going until 2030-31 when new stock may eventually start to arrive.

If this is the case, then I probably won’t be worth Northern taking them then, as repainting them and putting them in service will give them around 2-3 years when phase 2 comes around, but still, they could replace 769s, unless the BEMUs go on the Southport services first instead of the MAN-BUX line.

 

[Mordac]

Just get some TfW 150s to replace 769s, this is embarrassing.

 

[D9006]

Just get some TfW 150s to replace these, this is embarrasing.

No spare there I guess, as looking at real traintimes some are covering Exeter to Penzance working replacing HSTs withdrawn

 

[skyhigh]

No spare there I guess, as looking at real traintimes some are covering Exeter to Penzance working replacing HSTs withdrawn

TfW 150s are working GWR services?

 

[YorkshireBear]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0lxwg77x16o

Rail minister backs bid for more carriages on line​

Image source,Northern
Image caption,
The Northumberland Line reopened in December 2024 after being shut for 60 years
ByJames Robinson
Local Democracy Reporting Service

• • Published
    1 January 2026

The rail minister has given his support to calls for permanent additional carriages on a recently reopened line.
More than 900,000 journeys have been made on the Northumberland Line, connecting the south-east of the county and Tyneside, since it opened in December 2024, prompting calls for greater capacity.
However, operator Northern has said this would be "challenging" due to the number of carriages available in its fleet.
The firm has temporarily allocated rolling stock from other routes, but Rail Minister Lord Hendy has instructed the organisation to look into whether a long-term solution is possible.
His comments came as part of correspondence with Northumberland County Council leader Glen Sanderson, who said he had written to the government to express "concerns" over lack of seating for passengers.
In his response to Sanderson, seen by the Local Democracy Reporting Service, the minister said he "entirely" accepted the need for more capacity.
He wrote: "My officials at Rail North Partnership have now instructed Northern to identify whether any permanent reallocations are possible.
"Northern is also in discussions with other operators to see what suitable rolling stock they may have available to increase capacity ahead of Northern's new train fleet entering service in 2030."

'Exploring all options'​

A spokesman for the company said it was "closely monitoring demand" and bringing in additional carriages when possible.
But he added it was "challenging as we have a limited number of carriages in our fleet, which are needed to run more than 2,650 services a day across the North of England".
"Limited capacity at Newcastle station can also prevent us from running longer services at certain times of the day," he added.
"We are exploring all available options and working with industry partners to address these issues."
The number of journeys on the line has been about double the number expected despite two stations – Bedlington and Northumberland Park – still not having opened.
Its success has prompted discussions on an extension, with Newbiggin identified as a key destination.

First time I've seen it confirmed Northern are looking at units from other operators.

 

[BorderCollie]

Just get some TfW 150s to replace these, this is embarrasing.

There are also four off lease 156s at Ely...

 

[Bikeman78]

There are also four off lease 156s at Ely...

There was also talk, in the East Kilbride thread, of Scotrail sending a few 156s off lease.

 

[D365]

There are also four off lease 156s at Ely...

They will not be seen in passenger traffic again.

 

[londonmidland]

There are also four off lease 156s at Ely...

They don't have WSP fitted to them iirc, which is why no one wants them.

 

[absolutelymilk]

They don't have WSP fitted to them iirc, which is why no one wants them.

How much would it cost to fit WSP (wheel slide protection) to them?

 

[Anvil1984]

How much would it cost to fit WSP (wheel slide protection) to them?

WSP is the least of the issues, the Northern 156s were only fitted in the last couple of years with auto sanding just installed this year I believe. It’ll be more the general condition and availability of parts which is is the bigger issue and also why there’s a former EMR 156 on Heaton acting as a parts donor

The ex TFW 150s need a full C6 exam as they were being run down on miles and withdrawn as soon as they required one and that’s not a cheap business

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably it's the TfW 158s that are of real interest, which via a cascade could release pairs of 150s from the existing fleet to allow the 769s to be scrapped.