Eurostar orders new double-deck train fleet

[zwk500]

So the same issues which led to the Bulleid 4DD sets being withdrawn! Lack of space overall and very likely will lead to even longer boarding/disembarking times

The 4DD was a completely different design, with individual compartments leading to narrow staircases for commuter services. The TGV-M has a vestibule at each end (a 'long distance' layout) as per most European DOuble-deck stock.

 

[NCT]

So the same issues which led to the Bulleid 4DD sets being withdrawn! Lack of space overall and very likely will lead to even longer boarding/disembarking times

For all my apparent dislike of the double decker TGVs, they will be 'fine' on Eurostar. Eurostar gets away with long dwells as they routes have a mainly point-to-point model.

 

[Trainbike46]

Given that the 4DD had the legs of the upper deck passengers between the heads of the lower deck passengers, I'd say it'd be hard not be better designed than them. And even then a 6ft tall passenger would be severely cramped in either deck. The TGV-M is a proper double-deck train with flat floors for each deck. Not sure what the headroom is like.

As a 6'4" person, I didn't have to duck on the upper deck of a TGV Lyria set. I think the lower deck was slightly lower.

So the same issues which led to the Bulleid 4DD sets being withdrawn! Lack of space overall and very likely will lead to even longer boarding/disembarking times

The 4DD sets had to fit within the significantly smaller UK loading gauge, double-deck trains on the continent have a lot more space to play with, making a good design possible.

 

[Austriantrain]

My main gripe with the TGV Duplex is the near useless overhead luggage racks.

Same on the WESTbahn double deck KISS units and a a general feature of double deck stock. Not so much of an issue e.g. on regional express trains, but a big problem on long distance stock. WESTbahn gets away with it as do SBB on their Twindexx units because so many "long distance" passengers are really commuters or on day trips. TGVs and E* are a different kettle of fish...

There is a reason why Germany is not going for double deck ICEs (much more frequent stops than on a TGV - long dwells, and those luggage issues).

 

[Harlequinuk]

The 4DD sets had to fit within the significantly smaller UK loading gauge, double-deck trains on the continent have a lot more space to play with, making a good design possible.

Which therefore circles back to, how would this run on UK gauging?

 

[Trainbike46]

Eurostar does not operate on UK loading gauge lines, only on HS1, which follows the larger UIC-gauges, so it does not fit on "conventional" UK lines, because it doesn't have to.

 

[NCT]

Which therefore circles back to, how would this run on UK gauging?

It wouldn't.

 

[zwk500]

Which therefore circles back to, how would this run on UK gauging?

The TGV-Ms would be captive to HS1 and it's UIC-GB+/GC clearances. Importantly, including the platform profiles.

 

[frenzed]

I've just strayed here interested in the loading gauge issues which hold back rail development in the UK.
Can somebody explain the loading gauge issue that is restrictive at Ashford International (GB+ not GC)?
Which loading gauge is needed for the recently ordered double deck trains?

 

[TheWierdOne]

I've just strayed here interested in the loading gauge issues which hold back rail development in the UK.
Can somebody explain the loading gauge issue that is restrictive at Ashford International (GB+ not GC)?
Which loading gauge is needed for the recently ordered double deck trains?

Ashford shouldn’t be an issue as the international platforms were renovated to allow the e320s to call, which will have a similar loading gauge to the double decks

 

[zwk500]

I've just strayed here interested in the loading gauge issues which hold back rail development in the UK.
Can somebody explain the loading gauge issue that is restrictive at Ashford International (GB+ not GC)?

Almost certainly it was the additional cost wasn't justified for the likely amount of GC traffic on offer (i.e. None)

Which loading gauge is needed for the recently ordered double deck trains?

The new double-deck trains will need to be compliant with the legacy gauge in France which I'm fairly sure isn't as big as GB+.

 

[SHD]

For France, consider GA as the reference loading gauge. GB is not cleared everywhere.

 

[STINT47]

If the new trains don't fit our loading gauge then Eurostar are restricting themselves in the event of disruption.

Whilst is not ideal at least the original trains can run on our existing network in the event of disruption on the line to St Pancras.

If the new trains also don't have third rail ability then they'll be even more restricted.

 

[zwk500]

If the new trains don't fit our loading gauge then Eurostar are restricting themselves in the event of disruption.

Whilst is not ideal at least the original trains can run on our existing network in the event of disruption on the line to St Pancras.

If the new trains also don't have third rail ability then they'll be even more restricted.

No more so than the e320s, which are also beyond UK loading gauge and don't have TPWS or AWS.

 

[STINT47]

No more so than the e320s, which are also beyond UK loading gauge and don't have TPWS or AWS.

The e320s aren't double deckers so I assumed they should fit our bridges?

 

[Class73Electro]

If the new trains don't fit our loading gauge then Eurostar are restricting themselves in the event of disruption.

Whilst is not ideal at least the original trains can run on our existing network in the event of disruption on the line to St Pancras.

If the new trains also don't have third rail ability then they'll be even more restricted.

The 373s don't have third rail anymore.

 

[bleeder4]

The e320s aren't double deckers so I assumed they should fit our bridges?

They're built to European loading gauge though, not the narrower UK loading gauge. Look at an e320 alongside a normal UK domestic train or one of the older Eurostar e373s. You'll see the train body is physically wider. The old e373s were built to UK loading gauge as, at that point, Eurostar was still running on traditional tracks from Waterloo. By the time the e320s came in Eurostar was at St Pancras with HS1 in place, so they weren't made to be compatible with UK loading gauge as it wasn't needed.

 

[zwk500]

The e320s aren't double deckers so I assumed they should fit our bridges?

e320s aren't clear for UK Loading gauge. This photo from twitter suggests they won't fit under UK bridges by comparison with the e300s on the right.:


Remember Waterloo no longer has international platforms, so the only feasible diversionary route off HS1 would be only as far as Ebbsfleet, as any international train would need to rejoin HS1 there to access St Pancras to terminate there. HS1 is fully bi-directional so diversions would only be necessary in the event of a full route closure, and the maintenance plan for HS1 means daytime engineering work shouldn't generally be needed.

the e300s have had all UK-specific equipment removed, and the e320s were never fitted with third rail shoes, TPWS or AWS. Ashford has KVB fitted to allow international services to run through the station. The double deckers being captive to HS1 will not pose any greater problems to Eurostar than they currently deal with.

 

[SHD]

On a side historical note, did you know that the most beautiful of all French electric locomotives, and the most technologically advanced for its time, was built to British loading gauge?

It is quite noticeable in pictures:

File:40109 à Garges-Sarcelles.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

 

[zwk500]

On a side historical note, did you know that the most beautiful of all French electric locomotives, and the most technologically advanced for its time, was built to British loading gauge?

It is quite noticeable in pictures:

File:40109 à Garges-Sarcelles.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

Are you sure that would fit W6? It's a rather square roof profile. And it doesn't look particularly narrower than the carriage immediately behind.

 

[SHD]

I've read several times that it was built to British gauge, but it may have been an exaggeration, I have to say I did not care to verify each dimension

 

[Alpine Rider]

This all seems strange indeed perhaps intentional..

A while back the ORR argued that the Temple Mills depot has spare capacity and could indeed service rival operator services.

Several potential rivals announce plans to operate rival services.

Next Eurostar announce plans operate new routes from St Pancras including Geneva and Frankfurt which just might use up that spare capacity.

Next after years of doing nothing to promote competition someone decided it was time to invite tenders for the construction of a new international train servicing facility on adjacent railway land at Temple Mills.

Next Eurostar announce new duplex TGV train orders - although these will probably be used to replace the rather tired Thalys fleet BUT for some strange reason Eurostar have decided they will be serviced at Temple Mills instead of the massive Forest TGV facility near Brussels which was purpose built to service the orginal Thalys fleet.

I am starting to wonder whether these developments are just coincidental, or perhaps indicative of an operator attempting to block competition and retain a cosy monopoly position on cross channel rail services from St Pancras.

 

[TheWierdOne]

I am starting to wonder whether these developments are just coincidental, or perhaps indicative of an operator attempting to block competition and retain a cosy monopoly position on cross channel rail services from St Pancras.

Oh Eurostar is absolutely trying to block competition. The French (who own Eurostar via SNCF) are extremely protectionist. The tender for a potential new depot says to me that the government is probably not bothering to fight Eurostar directly over depot space, but will simply go for competition through service expansion. Clearly the ultimate owners of Eurostar, the French government, aren’t that bothered about competition, as otherwise they would have killed any competitors by simply refusing them access to LGV Nord.

 

[43096]

On a side historical note, did you know that the most beautiful of all French electric locomotives, and the most technologically advanced for its time, was built to British loading gauge?

It is quite noticeable in pictures:

View attachment 190978

File:40109 à Garges-Sarcelles.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

It doesn’t look noticeable at all.

Urban myth, I would say. I can’t see a quad-voltage, 6000hp electric loco fitting into the British loading gauge in the 1960s.

 

[Eurostarosaur]

Oh Eurostar is absolutely trying to block competition. The French (who own Eurostar via SNCF) are extremely protectionist. The tender for a potential new depot says to me that the government is probably not bothering to fight Eurostar directly over depot space, but will simply go for competition through service expansion. Clearly the ultimate owners of Eurostar, the French government, aren’t that bothered about competition, as otherwise they would have killed any competitors by simply refusing them access to LGV Nord.

But we have now established that this order as it stands (without options exercised) is not guaranteed to lead to service expansion at all. Also I find the Eurostar statements this week regarding depot space to be quite sinister sounding, as if they are planning to block access even if ORR allows. I think Eurostar is laying the groundwork to make this a protracted battle, and this order is a key part of the opening act.

 

[Sorcerer]

But we have now established that this order as it stands (without options exercised) is not guaranteed to lead to service expansion at all. Also I find the Eurostar statements this week regarding depot space to be quite sinister sounding, as if they are planning to block access even if ORR allows. I think Eurostar is laying the groundwork to make this a protracted battle, and this order is a key part of the opening act.

If the ORR permits competition then what power will Eurostar actually have to stop it? I think ultimately, try as they might, any decisions made will go ahead. If the protectionist SNCF hasn't been able to stop Trenitalia competing on the busy Paris-Lyon route that runs entirely on home territory then I doubt they'll be able to stop them or another competitor from taking up depot space on foreign soil through a partially-owned subsidiary.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I am left wondering. If the 373 and 374 fleets are still maintained in France and Belgium as well as at Temple Mills then perhaps the expansion at Temple Mills is to bring all heavy maintenance to Temple Mills.

I am assuming that the new "Eurostar" double deck trains will just replace the PBA and PBKA ex Thalys fleets but perhaps need more space in France.

 

[Snow1964]

I am left wondering. If the 373 and 374 fleets are still maintained in France and Belgium as well as at Temple Mills then perhaps the expansion at Temple Mills is to bring all heavy maintenance to Temple Mills.

I am assuming that the new "Eurostar" double deck trains will just replace the PBA and PBKA ex Thalys fleets but perhaps need more space in France.

Clearly Eurostar are using every trick in the book to try and keep exclusive use of Temple Mills, even stating some stock that is currently maintained in France will need to use it.

They will of course also be aware of the new private TGV servicing depot recently announced just south of Bordeaux for Proxima new Velvet fleet. Suggests French are softening their approach to depot ownership (which historically was very protectionist).

Whilst lack of land near St Pancras helps protect their position, it would be relatively easy to build a servicing depot further out, nearer Dagenham, Ebbsfleet or alongside A2 etc.

 

[zwk500]

I am left wondering. If the 373 and 374 fleets are still maintained in France and Belgium as well as at Temple Mills then perhaps the expansion at Temple Mills is to bring all heavy maintenance to Temple Mills.

I expect that the expansion at Temple Mills will be to allow the light maintenance tasks to be performed on more sets.

 

[tfw756rider]

I expect that the expansion at Temple Meads will be to allow the light maintenance tasks to be performed on more sets.

or even Temple Mills