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Eurostar orders new double-deck train fleet

SHD

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Has that ever happened?

It happens from time to time, for example when passengers of a well-loaded stranded TGV are transferred to another TGV - also packed - for evacuation. As far as I understand the procedure, the responsibility to declare "overload" status lies on the guards' shoulders.
 
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43096

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I wonder if these are any better than the Bulleid designed Class-4DD
Pretty obviously yes.
Speaking of tops classes I wonder what TOPS number they'll give these new sets considering 375 is already taken.
They may not have a TOPS class (more correctly a R2 class). They could be registered in France rather than Britain.
 

trainmania100

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Interesting how they're anticipating needing the extra capacity despite bids for another cross channel competitor
 

Gag Halfrunt

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They plan to fill up Temple Mills depot and prevent any rival operator using it.

The SNCF-owned operator plans to maintain the entire fleet at the Temple Mills depot in north-east London, which it hopes to redevelop with a further €80m investment, creating 350 jobs.

 

StephenHunter

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Pretty obviously yes.

They may not have a TOPS class (more correctly a R2 class). They could be registered in France rather than Britain.

There's plenty of space in the 800s. They will need a European Vehicle Number in any event.
 

AdamWW

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(more correctly a R2 class). .

More correctly, perhaps. But I suspect I'm not all that unusual on this forum in understanding what is meant by a TOPS number and not having a clue what R2 means.

They may not have a TOPS class (more correctly a R2 class). They could be registered in France rather than Britain.

Does that mean that the systems in the UK that need to know such things can now work from a full EVN and no longer need a number in a traditional UK format?
 

StephenHunter

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The newest British units have both. We've even got EVNs on external display with the new TPE, TfW and Merseyrail units.
 

43096

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Does that mean that the systems in the UK that need to know such things can now work from a full EVN and no longer need a number in a traditional UK format?
The whole point of the EVN system is a vehicle doesn't need to have a corresponding number in another country.
 

AdamWW

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The newest British units have both. We've even got EVNs on external display with the new TPE, TfW and Merseyrail units.

Indeed.

But can we - as other European countries must be able to - cope with a vehicle with a foreign EVN and no equivalent in any UK numbering series?
 

frankmoh

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Indeed.

But can we - as other European countries must be able to - cope with a vehicle with a foreign EVN and no equivalent in any UK numbering series?
There's some complicated agreement between Network Rail and HS1 Ltd. Given that it is still a railway in the UK it would need a TOPS class probably, especially when sharing the line with domestic Javelin services.
 

StephenHunter

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Indeed.

But can we - as other European countries must be able to - cope with a vehicle with a foreign EVN and no equivalent in any UK numbering series?
We would still have a short form number on the vehicles as well. Eurostar have four digit unit numbers.
 

fandroid

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I don't think that a bland external livery is going to bother many actual passengers. They only get a brief glimpse of the train exteriors when boarding anyway.
 

sh24

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If the interiors are modelled on the TGV Océane sets, Plus and Premier will be a treat to travel on. A significant upgrade on the deeply mediocre and slightly nauseating E320.
 

Bletchleyite

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A significant upgrade on the deeply mediocre and slightly nauseating E320.

Wouldn't be hard. I always found it really disappointing that they took what is without a doubt the best high speed train in the world for passenger comfort (the ICE3) and downgraded it so much that it's one of the worst.
 

NCT

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Wouldn't be hard. I always found it really disappointing that they took what is without a doubt the best high speed train in the world for passenger comfort (the ICE3) and downgraded it so much that it's one of the worst.

Is it even a downgrade? Or just tried too hard and ended up with a shocking colour pallet?
 

Bletchleyite

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Is it even a downgrade? Or just tried too hard and ended up with a shocking colour pallet?

It's not just the colour scheme, it's all the materials, the seats, the tables, the super-bright lighting... the ICE3 is an excellent train, the E320 is just that little bit rubbish, and it's the same physical train.
 

Sorcerer

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So according to Jon Worth, despite the headlines making a huge deal out of double-deck trains in the UK, the new Eurostar fleet might never actually be used in the Channel Tunnel and is mostly just replacing the PBA and PBKA fleet from the old Thalys services providing a capacity increase and that the whole schtick about them being maintained at Temple Mills is merely a crass effort to get the ORR to keep competitors out of the depot.
Eurostar merged in 2023 with Thalys, and it is the ex-Thalys trains that operate only in Continental Europe that are most in need of replacement. It has 9 200m long PBA trains, and 17 200m long PBKA trains in that fleet, so 26 trains in total. The order of 30 200m long Avelia Horizon is just basically replacing the ex-Thalys fleet, with an extra route Amsterdam-Geneva also to be worked on.

In other words, what Eurostar is ordering here might never be used in the Channel Tunnel.

For Channel Tunnel routes Eurostar’s 17 400m long Siemens e320 trains are only a decade old, so will continue to run for many years yet. But Eurostar also has 8 remaining 400m long e300 TMST trains that are reaching the end of their life, and given the Avelia Horizon trains are 200m long you would need 16 trains to replace those e300s, plus ideally a few more for suggested route expansions from London to Frankfurt and Geneva. So the 20 extra trains option in the order with Alstom covers that.

The problem is that currently we do not know how Avelia Horizon can be made to be compatible with the Channel Tunnel’s evacuation rules (Note that by contrast in its submission to ORR about the single deck Avelia Stream (PDF, page 6), Virgin states “The trains will be configured to meet Channel Tunnel safety and fire requirements”).
 

Sorcerer

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Wrong clearly mentions these new trains running London to Paris via the tunnel
But adding these trains to the Cross-Channel routes will not increase capacity if a 540-seat trainset is replacing a 758-seat trainset. You'd need about 11 pairs of trains to couple up together to increase the capacity, and that would only leave enough new trains leftover to barely replace the continental PBA sets. There is also the question as to whether they will be compatible with Channel Tunnel accessibility requirements.

Granted this would allow them to have a uniform fleet capable of running in Belgium, France, Germany and the Netherlands at the bare minimum, but constantly running in pairs just to match the 373/374 capacity just wouldn't be a very efficient use of new traction unless Eurostar plans journey splitting and merging. It's hard to say for certain where exactly these new trains will wind up right now and whether Eurostar will need to make the full order of 50 sets.
 

MCR247

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It does seem a very cautious order. Wasn’t one of the benefits of the rebranding the flexibility of using the 400m 374s on some of the busiest Amsterdam - Paris services?
 

Amalie

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Wouldn't be hard. I always found it really disappointing that they took what is without a doubt the best high speed train in the world for passenger comfort (the ICE3) and downgraded it so much that it's one of the worst.
It’s the operator that determines the interior. The hull/exterior of the train has little impact to this, beyond ride comfort and physical space. If DB for some reason ordered an Alstom Avelia to be their next ICE, it would have an interior that looks like an ICE. The goes for SNCF ordering a Siemens Velaro to be their next TGV, which would have…a TGV like interior. That is to say that if Eurostar somehow believes that their current interior design is the best thing since sliced bread and wishes to continue with it, I wouldn’t have high hopes. But we’ll see how it goes.
 

Snow1964

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So according to Jon Worth, despite the headlines making a huge deal out of double-deck trains in the UK, the new Eurostar fleet might never actually be used in the Channel Tunnel and is mostly just replacing the PBA and PBKA fleet from the old Thalys services providing a capacity increase and that the whole schtick about them being maintained at Temple Mills is merely a crass effort to get the ORR to keep competitors out of the depot.
Yes, the 9 PBA (basically an 8 trailer, 3 voltage TGV-reseau painted red) and the 17 PBKA (which had 4 voltage power cars that in profile look more like early TGV duplex power cars, but same trailers) are now 30-32 years old. The Eurostar 373s date from similar period 1993-1995. They were the tail end of second generation TGV and were variants of the 2+10 Atlantique sets from 1989-92 and 2+8 Reseau sets built 1992-94

The new (5th generation TGV) known as Avelia Horizon, uses shorter power cars, 9 slightly shorter intermediate vehicles (some of which have motors, so not 9 trailers). But is still about 200m long.

So with deliveries starting 2031, they are basically just replacing the ex-Thayls fleet (which by then will be around 36-38 years old) plus 4 additional trains.

The 20 options (which they can sit on, possibly for 3 or 4 years), would allow replacement of the 11 remaining E300s (which being double length are effectively equivalent to 22 units), although with higher capacity, less than 20 are needed to equal seat count.

With so much uncertainty about possible competition, commercially makes sense to wait and see regarding replacing the remaining E320s. And of course might be only few extra ordered, but all the E320s (and PBA and PBKA) get withdrawn in early 2030s as new trains arrive.
 
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Trainbike46

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Yes, the 9 PBA (basically an 8 trailer, 3 voltage TGV-reseau painted red) and the 17 PBKA (which had 4 voltage power cars that in profile look more like early TGV duplex power cars, but same trailers) are now 30-32 years old. The Eurostar 373s date from similar period 1993-1995. They were the tail end of second generation TGV and were variants of the 2+10 Atlantique sets from 1989-92 and 2+8 Reseau sets built 1992-94

The new (5th generation TGV) known as Avelia Horizon, uses shorter power cars, 9 slightly shorter intermediate vehicles (some of which have motors, so not 9 trailers). But is still about 200m long.

So with deliveries starting 2031, they are basically just replacing the ex-Thayls fleet (which by then will be around 36-38 years old) plus 4 additional trains.

The 20 options (which they can sit on, possibly for 3 or 4 years), would allow replacement of the 11 remaining E320s (which being double length are effectively equivalent to 22 units), although with higher capacity, less than 20 are needed to equal seat count.

With so much uncertainty about possible competition, commercially makes sense to wait and see regarding replacing the remaining E320s. And of course might be only few extra ordered, but all the E320s (and PBA and PBKA) get withdrawn in early 2030s as new trains arrive.
I'm assuming this is about replacing the e300s/373s, not the e320s/374s?

Of you did mean the latter, Eurostar have explicitly said the e320s are staying
 
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Citybreak1

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I'm assuming this is about replacing the e300s/373s, not the e320s/374s?

Of you did mean the letter, Eurostar have explicitly said the e320s are staying
Would make no sense replacing the E320’s especially as uber have ordered new Siemens. I think other services are looking more luxury now the double deckers will probably have iron board seats low height on top deck and over all worse ride. If I was taking one of the Belgium double decker trains vs a E320 I would say it the service wouldn’t be as good. I would worry if they replace these trains on the London route more will choose other operators. I even think the ex Thalys are better very comfy seats recently had a refurb. Can’t but bit feel these doubles are a step backwards to fit more people in.
 

SHD

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I don’t know what you mean by ”ride”, but if we’re talking about dynamic comfort, TGVs are markedly superior to ICEs, whatever the speed. Yes, even Duplex TGVs on the top deck. Haven’t tried the TGV-M yet obviously, but I doubt it will be different, because the superior dynamic behavior and comfort of TGVs primarily comes from their articulated design and their pneumatic suspension.
 

zwk500

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I wonder if these are any better than the Bulleid designed Class-4DD
Given that the 4DD had the legs of the upper deck passengers between the heads of the lower deck passengers, I'd say it'd be hard not be better designed than them. And even then a 6ft tall passenger would be severely cramped in either deck. The TGV-M is a proper double-deck train with flat floors for each deck. Not sure what the headroom is like.
 

Harlequinuk

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So the same issues which led to the Bulleid 4DD sets being withdrawn! Lack of space overall and very likely will lead to even longer boarding/disembarking times
 

NCT

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Given that the 4DD had the legs of the upper deck passengers between the heads of the lower deck passengers, I'd say it'd be hard not be better designed than them. And even then a 6ft tall passenger would be severely cramped in either deck. The TGV-M is a proper double-deck train with flat floors for each deck. Not sure what the headroom is like.

Interior saloon height in the aisle is OK. Getting up from your seat has a head banging risk if you are not careful (and I'm not even 1m75). My main gripe with the TGV Duplex is the near useless overhead luggage racks.
 

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