Are you saying 3tph to Chingford, or have 6tph to Chingford and 6tph via Seven Sisters alternating Enfield and Cheshunt?
Enfield Town warrants more of a service than Cheshunt does for sure
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West Anglia Mainline - the future
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Enfield Town warrants more of a service than Cheshunt does for sure
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aron2smith
Member
Not really, Southbury, Turkey Street and even Theobalds Grove are all busy stations. The train seems to be standing space by Southbury most times I've used the line recently, fills up from 3 stops! I wish they would run 8 coach trains off peak. Enfield Town only has Bush Hill Park on the way.
Instinct04
On Moderation
If it was to happen, it would need loops to allow the Stortford/Hertford services (which would probably be the ones stopping) to overtake.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
I’m saying:
4tph Chingford
6tph Edmonton Green, of which: 3tph Cheshunt, 3tph Enfield Town.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Not necessarily. I’ve been to all stations on the Southbury Loop and they are all very busy during the rush hour. Especially Turkey Street.
This would be an off peak service, and a frequency increase on both branches would be welcome.
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aron2smith
Member
Turnford station would make a lot of sense if the Brookfield development happens in full (much expanded town centre and 1250 homes), it would be much easier for future residents to get to than what exists now. In walking distance of Hertford Regional College and for once, the land required both for the station and a road to it is freely available. From what I saw of plans, no parking would be provided, in lieu a bus turning point would exist instead. In any case, such a station wouldn't be feasible before 4 tracking, as timetables are tight as it is. Turnford would likely be a place where fast trains (Stansted or Cambridge/ Ely) would have to overtake any trains that stop at Turnford.
A vastly different situation to the other station Broxbourne wanted, which is Park Plaza on the Overground, where timetables don't have to think about other trains except in diversions.
I can see this level of service being well used on both branches. And maybe not the case, but Enfield Lock + Turkey Street seems much much busier than Enfield Town + Enfield Chase at nearly all times of day. Turkey Street can easily fill up the whole train in peak and off peak times!
Instinct04
On Moderation
Is a frequency increase for the LO Enfield/Cheshunt weaver lines being planned anytime soon?
dk1
Veteran Member
Travelling on the 3-car 15:22 Stansted-Birmingham yesterday it was well loaded from the airport with around 50% remaining onboard after Cambridge when it became full and standing as far as Ely. On departure from there it was busy but comfortable. To fit around other WA services departures from Stansted heading north at this time are at 14:48, 15:22 & 15:37 with both the latter two having to use platform 2 making it all very tight operationally.
Instinct04
On Moderation
How hard (and expensive) would it be to double the Stansted airport tunnel?
Why was it built as single track, anyway? This seems like an extraordinarily short sighted move.
dk1
Veteran Member
Built single because BR was often stumped for cash and this is a fine example of a modern day folly. It will be enormously expensive and disruptive to double the tunnel. So much so that a loop line under the airport perimeter to Elsenham was seen as the most viable alternative.
I don't think anyone foresaw the growth in rail transport that's happened back in 1985-88 when the route was planned and designed.
We've been able to lament many similar decisions made in the "managed decline" years, though this one is even harder to reverse than most.
We've been able to lament many similar decisions made in the "managed decline" years, though this one is even harder to reverse than most.
The tunnel goes under the runway, need I say more?
Because Stansted wasn't a busy airport. For most of the 1990s the Stansted Express was 2 tph with 4 car trains and the north curve had a once a day parliamentary service. The 4 tph 8 car Stansted Express only dates from about 2006 and the Cambridge-Stansted predecessor of the through Norwich service started in 2014.
The main capacity issue at Stansted isn't the single lines, it is only having 3 platforms, one of which only takes a tiny train.
dk1
Veteran Member
I’m really not sure why a stipulation to further growth (30-43m passengers) wasn’t given on the condition that investment in the railway station wasn’t a compulsory condition to it being agreed.
Instinct04
On Moderation
Ah I see. We are essentially stuck with what we have got. Honestly, I don't know how the WAML is going to cope with future demand.
It desperately needs to be four tracked. I really don't see any other option...
Does it have to be for CR2, or could you not just double the lines between say Broxbourne and Tottenham Hale (Coppermill North Junction)
Would this be useful?
It desperately needs to be four tracked. I really don't see any other option...
Does it have to be for CR2, or could you not just double the lines between say Broxbourne and Tottenham Hale (Coppermill North Junction)
Would this be useful?
Falcon1200
Established Member
Would it have cost much more to build a double-track tunnel with initially only a single line installed?
It was built using a TBM apparently, so it probably would have been quite a bit more to build for 2 tracks. Either a second bore or a much larger machine would have been needed.
Had it been cut & cover then probably not, but that might have disrupted airport operation to an unacceptable level!
Had it been cut & cover then probably not, but that might have disrupted airport operation to an unacceptable level!
The WAML is going to cope with increased demand by filling the empty seats on the trains that it runs now, and maybe extending some of the remaining 5 car trains to 10 cars. The class 745s and class 720s have delivered a big increase in capacity that isn't near to being fully utilised yet. The recent Stansted Airport planning application shows that the existing 4tph Stansted Express service has the capacity for the increased traffic to and from the airport that would result.
No it doesn't. The fall in peak time commuting means that the existing infrastructure and new trains can move all of the traffic with capacity to spare.
That's not the right question. The right questions are (a) is it sufficiently useful to justify the immense cost? and (b) could that immense cost be used elsewhere to deliver bigger and better improvements?
So how viable would an extra platform under the car park be?
Falcon1200
Established Member
That makes sense, thanks.
William3000
Member
I’ve always wondered why there appears to be track bed adjacent to the line running into the short platform 2 but on the platform itself there are very large spherical uprights that would likely render another short platform there impossible. In the medium term I expect what ever replaces the 170s to Birmingham New Street will be longer - probably 4 or 5 cars but I think platform 2 has now been extended to take at least a 4 car train.
Yes, but with what capacity south of there? CR2 makes real use of it with the tunnel, the core section. This means homes can be built, funding it all.
Instinct04
On Moderation
Ok. I have the following questions.
Before I ask them, I want everybody to understand that I am on this forum only to ask questions, and to find out answers as to why things can/cannot be done. I am not trying to be silly or arrogant. Please do not think that, I am just curious like many of you all here!
First Question:
On weekends the Hertford trains are normally packed out by the likes of Cheshunt. During the days, why aren’t these extended to 10 cars? It it not financially viable to do so? Are there any limitations?
I understand why the local Hertford east service cannot have an increased frequency (although sometimes I feel like it would be a godsend on the WAML inners.
Why not make Saturday and Sunday day services 10 cars?
Now before anyone says “Sunday patronage is lower” or “5 car services can satisfy demand“. You need to understand that they do not.
I have been on several Hertford services to/from Liverpool Street and they are often standing only by Waltham Cross. This is not helped by the 3 + 2 gangways that the 720s have, meaning that isles cannot be utilised to help distribute passengers evenly to clear up the vestibule areas.
Each time this makes for a very stressful experience when using GA.
Second Question:
Regarding the Stansted Express, the trains gain many passengers at Tottenham Hale who are coming from the Victoria Line. Ok.
What this has caused is a mass amount of people crowding the very narrow northbound platform, which can sometimes make quite dangerous to use.
I know that there is an old car park behind it that is currently closed and unused, along with some industrial wasteland. Both are immediately behind the platform. (] am aware that at the VERY end, there are Network Rail Offices. I have NOT forgotten those.)
Is this land currently being/or going to be used for something in the future? Is it raliway owned or privately owned?
Would it be possible to widen the northbound platform at Tottenham Hale Station? I feel like this would help alleviate some of the dangerous overcrowding that occurs here, especially at peak times with passangers heading northbound.
Third Question:
What‘a happening with the proposed Ponders End Loop thing, to allow more trains to Meridian Water? Is this going ahead?
If it did, would it mean the Bishops Stortford trains would allow the Stansted Express trains timed behind them to overtake, or would it be the Hertfords?
IMO it shouldn’t be the Hertfords. These are the only trains to serve Hertford, Ware and the surrounding area that go directly into the city of London (Liverpool Street). (I am not including Great Northern, as there services are slower as they call at more stops - but it is an alternative)
Bishops Stortford already has many fast trains into London, As well as Harlow. So the Bishops Stortford trains should be the only ones to be slowed down to allow other trains to overtake.
Please let me know your thoughts..
Dream on! The West Anglia Main Line doesn't have a lot of nearby land suitable for housing, and any funding from new housing will be going on other infrastructure first, such as water, hospitals and schools.
dk1
Veteran Member
As I posted earlier it’s one of the biggest folly’s of modern times. I suppose it could be said that hindsight is a wonderful thing but it really was an own goal if ever there was one.
To answer some questions:
The airport tunnel was and is single track because it was cheaper. AIUI it also had to be single bore(s) due to increased settlement risk of a double track tunnel under a live airfield. There is passive provision both ends for a second bore. At the time it was developed (nearly 40 years ago) there was no real prospect of a need for more than 6tph. There still isn’t, and even if there was, there is nowhere for the extra trains to go.
There is no prospect of 4 tracking the WAML between Tottenham and (say) Broxbourne without Crossrail 2. Two reasons, 1) there is nowhere for additional trains to go at the south end without Crossrail 2, and 2) it is easily a £3bn job (without CR2) which needs a lot of additional passengers (and therefore lots of extra homes) to make the case - and all these extra passengers need extra trains, refer to point 1.
The Ponders end loop. No idea if it is happening. Personally I hope not, as in my opinion it will destroy punctuality on the line as well as extend journey times for many existing users.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
The principle of Crossrail 2 was significant development on the corridor, around 200,000 new homes IIRC; all in line with the London strategic housing plan. Something like 50,000 were on the WA from London to Harlow, 10,000 of them were Meridian Water alone. A load more at Brimsdown. Another 2000 next to the station at Cheshunt. Some of these are happening now of course.
The airport tunnel was and is single track because it was cheaper. AIUI it also had to be single bore(s) due to increased settlement risk of a double track tunnel under a live airfield. There is passive provision both ends for a second bore. At the time it was developed (nearly 40 years ago) there was no real prospect of a need for more than 6tph. There still isn’t, and even if there was, there is nowhere for the extra trains to go.
There is no prospect of 4 tracking the WAML between Tottenham and (say) Broxbourne without Crossrail 2. Two reasons, 1) there is nowhere for additional trains to go at the south end without Crossrail 2, and 2) it is easily a £3bn job (without CR2) which needs a lot of additional passengers (and therefore lots of extra homes) to make the case - and all these extra passengers need extra trains, refer to point 1.
The Ponders end loop. No idea if it is happening. Personally I hope not, as in my opinion it will destroy punctuality on the line as well as extend journey times for many existing users.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
The principle of Crossrail 2 was significant development on the corridor, around 200,000 new homes IIRC; all in line with the London strategic housing plan. Something like 50,000 were on the WA from London to Harlow, 10,000 of them were Meridian Water alone. A load more at Brimsdown. Another 2000 next to the station at Cheshunt. Some of these are happening now of course.
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Adrian1980uk
Member
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I think there's going to be a crunch point on lots of routes in the next 10 to 15 years, not just the west Anglia where simply no capacity for extra trains and no way of running longer trains. The 12 carriage Stansted express 4 times an hour will probably cope (provided they remain and aren't swapped for 720s) but others at times will get very cosy.
12 car 745/1 as used on the STEx has 722 seats.
10 car 720 has 980 seats
720s would be a 35% seated capacity uplift…
Adrian1980uk
Member
- Joined
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Seats yes but luggage no...
Falcon1200
Established Member
Fascinating discussion on the WAML, where I worked for a couple of years - 1978-80! The wires then ended at Stortford and we had loco-hauled trains to Cambridge and Kings Lynn behind Classes 31 and 37, and a fair bit of freight too. Changed days indeed!
Instinct04
On Moderation
I honestly don’t know what they are going to do with it.
It’s like everything revolves around CR2, which is valid I suppose. In this case, do you guys think that the WAML inner stations would lose their direct services to Liverpool Street? (Particularly during peak hours?)
The big changes were in the 1990s: Kings Cross became the main route for Cambridge trains and the Stansted Express became the most important service on the West Anglia Main Line.
William3000
Member
If CR2 comes in then the proposal is to have stations at Euston-St Pancras, Tottenham Court Road, and Victoria which amply provides access to central London. If passengers want to travel to the City they would be able to change at Tottenham Hale (the opposite of what happens at the moment) or Angel or Tottenham Court Rd stations on CR2. I would then envisage all stations north of Tottenham Hale being CR2 only, up to Cheshunt.
CR2 would have a branch to New Southgate with perhaps another 10 trains per hour but I would envisage about 14 trains per hour to Broxbourne.
I would envisage a double track slow running lines to the east of the current layout extending what has been done to Meridian Water albeit this would involve some demolition.
This would leave the current running lines serving
2tph to Hertford East, which would run fast between Tottenham Hale and Cheshunt.
2tph to Cambridge (Ely) which would run fast between Tottenham Hale and Broxbourne
4tph which would run fast from Tottenham Hale to Harlow Town or Bishop’s Stortford
2tph to Bishop’s Stortford (from Stratford) which would run fast from Tottenham Hale to Cheshunt.
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