West Anglia Mainline - the future

[Bald Rick]

I agree that the Hertfords definitely can't southbound, the Stansted Express is 3 minutes behind and they're often late. However, in theory they could stop northbound as there's 7 minutes behind it (and the next train is 2Txx which stops anyway). Saves everyone having to go to Lea Bridge.

Except the next Stansted express is 3 mins behind the northbound Hertford at Broxbourne.

 

[Instinct04]

I'm literally at Tottenham Hale right now, and I'm sorry but I just really despise the way in which these trains are timetabled.

It's a VERY small issue but why is it that the XX:13/XX:23 Meridian Water - Stratford services don't connect with the XX:14/XX:44 Hertford East - Liverpool Street services?

Please correct me if I am wrong, or think I am being increadibly stupid by suggesting this, but how hard would it be to timetable the Stratford shuttle services so that they leave Meridian Water 1-2 minutes later?

It boils my blood to pull into Tottenham Hale and see the Stratford train just leaving..

 

[Instinct04]

I'm literally at Tottenham Hale right now, and I'm sorry but I just really despise the way in which these trains are timetabled.

It's a VERY small issue but why is it that the XX:13/XX:23 Meridian Water - Stratford services don't connect with the XX:14/XX:44 Hertford East - Liverpool Street services?

Please correct me if I am wrong, or think I am being increadibly stupid by suggesting this, but how hard would it be to timetable the Stratford shuttle services so that they leave Meridian Water 1-2 minutes later?

It boils my blood to pull into Tottenham Hale and see the Stratford train just leaving..

The same issue also applies to Northbound trains by means of the XX:25/55 to Hertford, and the XX:26/56 to Meridian Water. The Hertford leave Tottenham Hale just as the Meridian Water train pulls in - but the footbridge makes the connection much less likely to be made

 

[Instinct04]

I’m not actually sure the capacity between Central London and Tottenham is that well needed.

When the Picc frequency upgrade happens - plus the new stock and quicker feel effect - that should pick up more usage.

The Northern & City line, if a metro TPH, could in theory also attract a lot more users. Including critically the many who change at H&I off the Overground.

As for the WAML, I think inner frequency (via Seven Sisters) feels the right area for growth. Service to Harlow, BS and Stansted itself is about right. Cambridge - this is the secondary route but maybe one more TPH would help both inbound Cambridge commuting and also a faster e2e journey for the City.

Stratford feeds in 4tph which didn’t used to be there, that’s progress. Possibly the fourth platform at Tottenham Hale might enable more shuttles to MW - but I don’t know that they are needed.

I know I’ve said this before.

But another thing that is needed that you have not mentioned is WAML inner flows between Cheshunt and Tottenham Hale. Mainly Waltham X, Enfield Lock, Brimsdown and Ponders End. They all need more services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Sep 2025 ==

Sorry I have been bombarding you all. I wish I could delete some of them now as I feel I may have been a bit too harsh..

I have seen the thread regarding the December 2025 timetable, and the changes to the WAML. Off Peak there are a few changes, but during peak times there are many changes.

I can see that Brimsdown, Enfield Lock and Waltham Cross all now recieve 4tph both during the peak. Ponders End still receives the old 2tph Hertford services though..

 

[JonathanH]

The Stratford to Meridian Water trains have to be timetabled on the opposite quarter hour to the Stratford to Bishops Stortford services and those have to fit in with the Cambridge services. The Hertford East is opposite the Cambridge service. Fairly apparent why a connection can't be made between the Hertford East to Liverpool Street and Meridian Water to Stratford services, and there is therefore a twelve minute wait.

 

[Instinct04]

Thank you! Someone who has finally explained this strange phenomenon to me! I will bare this is mind each time I miss the train.

What does everyone think of the WAML December 2025 timetable change?

 

[dk1]

Thank you! Someone who has finally explained this strange phenomenon to me! I will bare this is mind each time I miss the train.

What does everyone think of the WAML December 2025 timetable change?

Rather disappointing that Norwich services still can’t reach the airport in SX peak hours.

 

[Brubulus]

Rather disappointing that Norwich services still can’t reach the airport in SX peak hours.

Isn't that so there's a third fast service? I can see how the capacity out of London is needed, and there's an argument that Audley End and Whittlesford deserve 2 fasts in the peak but the arguments to just curtail it at Bishops Stortford are also pretty strong.

 

[321362]

Except the next Stansted express is 3 mins behind the northbound Hertford at Broxbourne.

Shame that Ponders End will only have a loop southbound as that would be a good place to hold it for an overtake (if you held the Hertford a few minutes later so it wasn't waiting excessively long)

 

[dk1]

Isn't that so there's a third fast service? I can see how the capacity out of London is needed, and there's an argument that Audley End and Whittlesford deserve 2 fasts in the peak but the arguments to just curtail it at Bishops Stortford are also pretty strong.

Not completely sure but sounds about right. Remember train planning hoping something could be done but doesn’t look like it’s possible. With commuting returning strongly too it makes sense. Capacity was always going to be a problem diagramming things around the single line tunnel and platform capacity at the airport too.

 

[Instinct04]

Shame that Ponders End will only have a loop southbound as that would be a good place to hold it for an overtake (if you held the Hertford a few minutes later so it wasn't waiting excessively long)

Would this slow the Hertford service down? Journey times would be made longer..

 

[cle]

Doubling the Stansted tunnel (likely a future airport scheme, if ever) - would be required to add more towards Cambridge. But then you get into Ely finite capacity. So not much is left once both Birmingham and Norwich services go to Stansted. Maybe then, the Ipswich (if it doesn't go to EWR) - but that's all really. Or shorter services to Cambridge bays/North, I guess.

And with a doubled tunnel, facing south, you could extend the Stratford-BS service into Stansted. That's likely all you could do with it.

 

[dk1]

Doubling the Stansted tunnel (likely a future airport scheme, if ever) - would be required to add more towards Cambridge. But then you get into Ely finite capacity. So not much is left once both Birmingham and Norwich services go to Stansted. Maybe then, the Ipswich (if it doesn't go to EWR) - but that's all really. Or shorter services to Cambridge bays/North, I guess.

And with a doubled tunnel, facing south, you could extend the Stratford-BS service into Stansted. That's likely all you could do with it.

I think the best option given a few years ago was a large loop line rejoining the WAML south of Elsenham but with a junction facing south. Obviously hideously expensive but then so is doubling the current tunnel but saving all the disruption that would cause.

 

[Brubulus]

Doubling the Stansted tunnel (likely a future airport scheme, if ever) - would be required to add more towards Cambridge. But then you get into Ely finite capacity. So not much is left once both Birmingham and Norwich services go to Stansted. Maybe then, the Ipswich (if it doesn't go to EWR) - but that's all really. Or shorter services to Cambridge bays/North, I guess.

And with a doubled tunnel, facing south, you could extend the Stratford-BS service into Stansted. That's likely all you could do with it.

There's no strong argument for doubling the tunnel. 4tph to London + 2tph to Cambridge is perfectly fine and there's much more important rail schemes in the wider region and a very limited sum of money.

 

[cle]

I wasn't hugely advocating for it - I agree that without other works, it's fairly constrained by WAML, Ely etc issues too. I was more making the point that growth for Stansted specifically is difficult without it.

i'd rather an incremental quadding scheme (Tottenham Hale platform 4, then as far towards Cheshunt as you can possibly get) to up service to more of the inner stations.

 

[Magdalia]

There's no strong argument for doubling the tunnel. 4tph to London + 2tph to Cambridge is perfectly fine and there's much more important rail schemes in the wider region and a very limited sum of money.

The recent Stansted Airport expansion planning application agreed with that.

I was more making the point that growth for Stansted specifically is difficult without it.

And not with that! Stansted Airport think that the existing service can absorb their projected passenger growth.

The main constraint at Stansted Airport is platform capacity, especially for the Cambridge trains, which need to be longer. That's because traffic growth isn't just about the airport, it is about Cambridge growth too.

 

[Instinct04]

Looking at the timetable I can see that the London—Cambridge/Cambridge to London1HXX services have been slowed down.

They now pick up calls at Sawbridgeworth and Waltham Cross.

Not good news for the likes of Whittlesford Parkway and Audley End..

 

[321362]

Quadtracking is the way

Cheshunt-Broxbourne would be difficult because there's a river in the way for a lot of it. North of Broxbourne seems easy enough.

South of Tottenham Hale you might be able to squeeze in a fourth line as far as (just north of) Lea Bridge
There's no way in hell that the nature reserve and nearby residents would let them quadtrack as far as Clapton, and then at that point it's in a cutting that would be nigh-on impossible to rebuild - and you would end up demolishing my house, so firmly in opposition of that!

Tottenham Hale platform 4, then as far towards Cheshunt as you can possibly get

Pretty sure the constraints are the level crossings at Brimsdown, Enfield Lock and Cheshunt, which would be expensive to rebuild. Cheshunt station also wouldn't like to be redesigned, it's quite wedged in between buildings and another nature reserve.

 

[Instinct04]

Quadtracking is the way

Cheshunt-Broxbourne would be difficult because there's a river in the way for a lot of it. North of Broxbourne seems easy enough.

South of Tottenham Hale you might be able to squeeze in a fourth line as far as (just north of) Lea Bridge
There's no way in hell that the nature reserve and nearby residents would let them quadtrack as far as Clapton, and then at that point it's in a cutting that would be nigh-on impossible to rebuild - and you would end up demolishing my house, so firmly in opposition of that!

Pretty sure the constraints are the level crossings at Brimsdown, Enfield Lock and Cheshunt, which would be expensive to rebuild. Cheshunt station also wouldn't like to be redesigned, it's quite wedged in between buildings and another nature reserve.

Honestly now that I think about it. The WAML is highly congested and constrained to the hilt.

I am aware of how important the Stansted Express service is, and that those 4tph bring in a large amount of revenue, but it’s still a shame that literally everything has to be fit around it.

What would you all think the stopping pattern would be on the entire West Anglia Main Line post CR2 - For GA and CR2 services?

 

[NCT]

I am aware of how important the Stansted Express service is, and that those 4tph bring in a large amount of revenue, but it’s still a shame that literally everything has to be fit around it.

Money talks. And them's the rules.

 

[Zomboid]

If your first train on the graph isn't the biggest, most lucrative train on the route, what is?

 

[321362]

What would you all think the stopping pattern would be on the entire West Anglia Main Line post CR2 - For GA and CR2 services?

I think ideally there would be:

6tph XR2 Broxbourne - core, all stations inc. Clapton (and Hackney Downs depending on where the station is in Hackney)

4tph Stratford - Hertford, semifast skipping Northumberland Park, Brimsdown, Enfield Lock

4tph Stansted Express, all calling at TOM, Harlow and Stortford with peak extras stopping at Cheshunt.

1tph stopper LST - Cambridge, calling at Tottenham Hale, Waltham Cross, Cheshunt, Broxbourne, Roydon, Harlow Town, Harlow Mill, Sawbridgeworth, Stortford, Stansted Mfitchet, Audley End, Gt Chesterford, Whittlesford, Cambridge South

1tph fast LST - Cambridge, calling at Tottenham Hale, Cheshunt, Broxbourne, Harlow Town, Stortford, Stansted Mfitchet, Audley End, Whittlesford, Cambridge South

Additionally 4tph all stations Stansted - Peterboro' via Cambridge, metro style. No more XC to Stansted.

 

[Farigiraf]

I think ideally there would be:

6tph XR2 Broxbourne - core, all stations inc. Clapton (and Hackney Downs depending on where the station is in Hackney)

4tph Stratford - Hertford, semifast skipping Northumberland Park, Brimsdown, Enfield Lock

4tph Stansted Express, all calling at TOM, Harlow and Stortford with peak extras stopping at Cheshunt.

1tph stopper LST - Cambridge, calling at Tottenham Hale, Waltham Cross, Cheshunt, Broxbourne, Roydon, Harlow Town, Harlow Mill, Sawbridgeworth, Stortford, Stansted Mfitchet, Audley End, Gt Chesterford, Whittlesford, Cambridge South

1tph fast LST - Cambridge, calling at Tottenham Hale, Cheshunt, Broxbourne, Harlow Town, Stortford, Stansted Mfitchet, Audley End, Whittlesford, Cambridge South

Additionally 4tph all stations Stansted - Peterboro' via Cambridge, metro style. No more XC to Stansted.

You're leaving Roydon, Harlow Mill and Sawbridgeworth with 1tph which currently have 2tph (will be 3tph from December when the Stratford-Bishop's Stortford goes half-hourly). It'd be better to remove some stops from the Cambridge North services with a 2tph Stratford/LST-Stortford service covering those calls. So:
2tph Stratford - Lea Bridge - Tottenham Hale - Cheshunt - Broxbourne - Roydon - Harlow Town - Harlow Mill - Sawbridgeworth - Bishop's Stortford. Could add some calls between Tottenham and Cheshunt to provide a direct Stratford service.
1tph LST - Tottenham Hale - Cheshunt - Broxbourne - Harlow Town - Bishop's Stortford - Audley End - Whittlesford - Cambridge South - Cambridge - Cambridge North. Could drop Whittlesford if you're running 4tph to Stansted
1tph LST - Tottenham Hale - Cheshunt - Broxbourne - Harlow Town - Bishop's Stortford - Stansted Mountfitchet - Audley End - Whittlesford - Cambridge South - Cambridge - Cambridge North. Could add a Sawbridgeworth call if there's demand.

 

[321362]

You're leaving Roydon, Harlow Mill and Sawbridgeworth with 1tph which currently have 2tph (will be 3tph from December when the Stratford-Bishop's Stortford goes half-hourly). It'd be better to remove some stops from the Cambridge North services with a 2tph Stratford/LST-Stortford service covering those calls.

Completely right, I missed that

I think reinstating peak time Southbury Loop services could be useful, calling at Seven Sisters and Edmonton Green (maybe White Hart Lane too??)

 

[Instinct04]

I think ideally there would be:

6tph XR2 Broxbourne - core, all stations inc. Clapton (and Hackney Downs depending on where the station is in Hackney)

4tph Stratford - Hertford, semifast skipping Northumberland Park, Brimsdown, Enfield Lock

4tph Stansted Express, all calling at TOM, Harlow and Stortford with peak extras stopping at Cheshunt.

1tph stopper LST - Cambridge, calling at Tottenham Hale, Waltham Cross, Cheshunt, Broxbourne, Roydon, Harlow Town, Harlow Mill, Sawbridgeworth, Stortford, Stansted Mfitchet, Audley End, Gt Chesterford, Whittlesford, Cambridge South

1tph fast LST - Cambridge, calling at Tottenham Hale, Cheshunt, Broxbourne, Harlow Town, Stortford, Stansted Mfitchet, Audley End, Whittlesford, Cambridge South

Additionally 4tph all stations Stansted - Peterboro' via Cambridge, metro style. No more XC to Stansted.

Which services would be on the slows and which ones would be on the fasts?

6tph Broxbourne - core: I agree completely. This would finally provide a turn up and go service along the lea valley. (These should absolutely be on the slows)

New stations at Pickett's Lock and Turnford should be opened too and served with the 6tph CR2.

4tph Stratford - Hertford: Why would you need 4tph for this service? Also, I don't think that the likes of Hertford, Ware, and St Margrets would appreciate having their trains to Liverpool Street diverted to Stratford. You'd be much better off having 2tph Liverpool Street - Hertford and 2tph Stratford- Hertford. Also think that you should skip all stations between Cheshunt and Tottenham Hale.

Maybe you could have the 2tph Stratford - Hertford service pick up calls at Waltham Cross, Enfield Lock and Brimsdown as well as serving Lea Bridge. These are the busiest stations on the London section of the WAML (bar Tottenham Hale) - If so then these services should be on the slows too. (2tph Liv St - Hertford would be on the fasts, still serving Hackney Downs.)

4tph Stansted Express: I agree. The peak extras stopping at Cheshunt would maintain the rush hour fast service. Off peak, I think that 2tph of these should call at Cheshunt too. (Fast lines)

Cambridge trains: I think, if there is room, Cambridge should have a direct service to Stratford for the Westfield shopping centre and all of its onwards connections, e.g east London, Docklands, East Anglia etc.

You could do 1tph Fast: calling at Tottenham Hale, Broxbourne, Bishops Stortford, Audley End, Whittlesford Parkway, Cambridge and Cambridge North. (Fast Lines)
Then you could have 1tph Semi-Fast calling at Tottenham Hale, Broxbourne, Sawbridgeworth, Bishops Stortford, Stansted Mountfitchet, Elsenham, Newport, Audley End, Great Chesterford, Whittlesford Parkway, Cambridge and Cambridge North. (Fast Lines)
Then you could have 2tph Stratford - Cambridge calling at: Tottenham Hale, Cheshunt, Broxboune, Harlow Town, Sawbridgeworth, Bishops Stortford, Stansted Mountfitchet, Elsenham (1tph), Newport (1tph), Audley End, Great Chesterford (1tph), Whittlesford Parkway, Shelford (1tph), Cambridge. (Fast Lines)

4tph all stations Stansted - Peterboro' via Cambridge, metro style. No more XC to Stansted.

I would say that XC should still serve Stansted Airport. Having the Birmingham service serving all those key stops provide for great onward travel connections.

I also think that the Stansted to Norwich service should run the full route all day instead of terminating short at Cambridge during peak hours. And the addition of a Peterborough service.

I don't live in this region so feel free to tell me otherwise.

Thoughts...?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2025 ==

Completely right, I missed that

I think reinstating peak time Southbury Loop services could be useful, calling at Seven Sisters and Edmonton Green (maybe White Hart Lane too??)

I agree. Honestly, I think the whole weaver line should go 6tph off peak with 3tph on the branches.

I don't know if any GA services should go via the Southbury Loop during peak hours. Wouldn't it make operations more complicated?

I think during the Peak hours you could have 4tph to Enfield Town and 4tph to Cheshunt?

 

[aron2smith]

I think ideally there would be:

6tph XR2 Broxbourne - core, all stations inc. Clapton (and Hackney Downs depending on where the station is in Hackney)

I thought the proposed Crossrail 2 frequency was more like 10tph on this section?

Additionally 4tph all stations Stansted - Peterboro' via Cambridge, metro style. No more XC to Stansted.

Presumably no more of that weird East Midlands service from Norwich to Liverpool, that for some reason is treated as a regional service, when it should be an Intercity, if trains Cambridge to Peterborough were increased that much from Stansted alone. March currently gets a train every 30 minutes from GA, EMR and Crosscountry but Whittlesea and Manea only get a train every 2 hours off peak! A shame because you could fed in buses from towns like Chatteris and Wisbech and all the villages around if there was a metro type frequency. A real shame the government isn't taking Ely Junction seriously!

 

[Instinct04]

I thought the proposed Crossrail 2 frequency was more like 10tph on this section?

Presumably no more of that weird East Midlands service from Norwich to Liverpool, that for some reason is treated as a regional service, when it should be an Intercity, if trains Cambridge to Peterborough were increased that much from Stansted alone. March currently gets a train every 30 minutes from GA, EMR and Crosscountry but Whittlesea and Manea only get a train every 2 hours off peak! A shame because you could fed in buses from towns like Chatteris and Wisbech and all the villages around if there was a metro type frequency. A real shame the government isn't taking Ely Junction seriously!

If it was 10tph then that would be a MASSIVE boost in frequency and capacity. Honestly, I think 6tp would be just fine, but of course if there are more trains promised then I would certainly accept them

Maybe CR2 could have a Broxbourne - Stratford service for the WA inner stations? Then the Hertford/Cambridge - Stratford (that I designed above) could be sped up.

 

[Magdalia]

The WAML is highly congested and constrained to the hilt.

It is difficult to path trains between the Stansted Expresses and there are a lot of flat junctions, but there is spare capacity. Commuting has not recovered to pre Covid levels and there are longer trains.

What would you all think the stopping pattern would be on the entire West Anglia Main Line post CR2 - For GA and CR2 services?

This means that Crossrail 2 is in the very long grass. It won't be happening any time soon.

I think ideally there would be:



4tph Stansted Express, all calling at TOM, Harlow and Stortford with peak extras stopping at Cheshunt.



Additionally 4tph all stations Stansted - Peterboro' via Cambridge, metro style. No more XC to Stansted.

This is just fantasy. Stansted Airport is heavily constrained by platform capacity, a single track tunnel under the runway and single track on the North Curve. For the station as a whole 6tph is effectively the maximum.

What's needed, and achievable, is 1tph Stansted-Norwich and 1tph Stansted-Peterborough, preferably with electric/battery bimodes. I wouldn't go beyond Peterborough, except maybe to Nottingham.

no more of that weird East Midlands service from Norwich to Liverpool

A real shame the government isn't taking Ely Junction seriously!

No more weird service Norwich-Liverpool service is the best way to make better use of existing capacity at Ely. It is bonkers that 4tph through a very congested junction are taken up by 2 car trains.

 

[cle]

No more weird service Norwich-Liverpool service is the best way to make better use of existing capacity at Ely. It is bonkers that 4tph through a very congested junction are taken up by 2 car trains.

I completely agree. Yes it's quirky but for where we are in capacity, it's silly. I wonder what it could actually unlock - or if it was contentious, it could 'fly over' Ely.

If Ely had a few bays (even for 2-4 car) they could probably fit in a few more local services like Norwich stoppers - or a Kings Lynn shuttle - but anything that can get to Cambridge is a bonus. Those north-facing bays could do more.

But Cambridge needs an even 2tph P'boro and 2tph Norwich, in my opinion - one of each to Stansted.

 

[Magdalia]

I completely agree. Yes it's quirky but for where we are in capacity, it's silly. I wonder what it could actually unlock - or if it was contentious, it could 'fly over' Ely.

Going back to using the west curve could release some capacity, each Norwich-Peterborough train would only go through Ely North Junction once not twice.

I'm confident that, if Greater Anglia were operating the service, then the trains would be 4 cars not 2 cars.

But Cambridge needs an even 2tph P'boro and 2tph Norwich, in my opinion - one of each to Stansted.

Peterborough 2tph first priority, Norwich not so important.