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With the possibility of Crossrail 2, Cambridge South, the huge growth of the Cambridge area, the expansion of Stansted Airport, and the growing importance of Stratford as a destination, I’m interested to hear from others how they envisage this busy but currently constrained route evolving in the future. Which services should run? Is 4 tracking required? And if so how far north? Broxbourne? Should 2 terminate at Broxbourne or go on to Hertford East or Harlow Town? What additional capacity is needed at Stansted Airport? Aside from the potential planned station at Turnford are any additional stations needed? Should line speeds be improved? Could local stopping services and Crossrail 2 services on the Lea Valley between Broxbourne and Tottenham Hale be separated from faster services to Cambridge North and Stansted Airport? Are more services required north of Stansted Airport? Should Cambridge trains be faster? And where should they terminate? Ely, Cambridge North? Or with the possible onset of EWR perhaps Newmarket?
I’ve got a few thoughts but really interested in how others see it.
You can expect the status quo for at least the next decade. There’s little that can be done without very substantial expenditure (which will not be fothcoming) or significantly affecting many existing journeys (which will be a very hard sell).
Every discussion on the West Anglia Main Line has to start with Liverpool Street-Stansted Airport. It is the network's 5th busiest passenger flow, only behind 4 station pairs on the Elizabeth Line. But it now has 4tph of 240m trains so actually has spare capacity. The recent planning documents for the Stansted Airport expansion took the view that the existing Liverpool Street-Stansted Airport service already has the capacity to cope with the additional traffic that airport expansion will generate, and I'm inclined to agree.
The next most important flows on the West Anglia Main Line are commuter traffic to London, which you have not mentioned. The key West Anglia Main Line commuter stations are Bishops Stortford, Harlow Town, Broxbourne and Audley End. At all of them traffic levels are only 75-80% of pre-pandemic levels. Since then the line has got new trains and can carry more passengers without needing more services.
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At the Cambridge end, the 2tph Liverpool Street service still has plenty of capacity to cope with huge growth.
There is lots we still don't know about Cambridge, and I'm waiting on the New Towns Taskforce and the Cambridge Growth Company. But I'm not expecting lots of new housing around the West Anglia Main Line stations near Cambridge because, north of Great Chesterford, much of the land near the line is flood plain.
The bit that concerns me is that nobody seems to be looking at the combined effects of Cambridge growth and Stansted expansion together. The bit of the West Anglia Main Line that will come under pressure is Stansted-Cambridge. If I had a limited pot of money for spending on the West Anglia Main Line it would go on platform capacity at the Airport and some battery bimode trains to run Stansted-Norwich and Stansted-Peterborough.
If I had a limited pot of money for spending on the West Anglia Main Line it would go on platform capacity at the Airport and some battery bimode trains to run Stansted-Norwich and Stansted-Peterborough.
There seems to be some sort of renewed optimism about Crossrail 2 borne out of the British Library works fuelled by quite unnecessary blog posting, but it still seems likely that it is a long long way off. There is, I think, passive provision at other places, such as Dalston Junction but that wasn't a sign it was any more likely to happen either.
Given the lack of funding it seems likely that any development would be limited to the bare minimum needed. potentially terminating at Tottenham Hale rather than extending onto the Lea Valley Line, avoiding the cost of four tracking.
Was there any indication from the way in which Meridian Water has been built which suggests the answer to any possible four tracking approach?
There seems to be some sort of renewed optimism about Crossrail 2 borne out of the British Library works fuelled by quite unnecessary blog posting, but it still seems likely that it is a long long way off. There is, I think, passive provision at other places, such as Dalston Junction but that wasn't a sign it was any more likely to happen either.
Given the lack of funding it seems likely that any development would be limited to the bare minimum needed. potentially terminating at Tottenham Hale rather than extending onto the Lea Valley Line, avoiding the cost of four tracking.
Was there any indication from the way in which Meridian Water has been built which suggests the answer to any possible four tracking approach?
I’m not actually sure the capacity between Central London and Tottenham is that well needed.
When the Picc frequency upgrade happens - plus the new stock and quicker feel effect - that should pick up more usage.
The Northern & City line, if a metro TPH, could in theory also attract a lot more users. Including critically the many who change at H&I off the Overground.
As for the WAML, I think inner frequency (via Seven Sisters) feels the right area for growth. Service to Harlow, BS and Stansted itself is about right. Cambridge - this is the secondary route but maybe one more TPH would help both inbound Cambridge commuting and also a faster e2e journey for the City.
Stratford feeds in 4tph which didn’t used to be there, that’s progress. Possibly the fourth platform at Tottenham Hale might enable more shuttles to MW - but I don’t know that they are needed.
I agree, but more 10 coach trains would definitely be an easy win, especially at weekends with tourists heading to Cambridge. It does seem like they have enough stock, as all trains are 10-coaches when the ECML route is closed.
Off peak the 2tph Cambridge-Liverpool Street is plenty and the route already has more trains in the peak. What needs sorting out is the gaps n the peak service at Cambridge North.
I agree, but more 10 coach trains would definitely be an easy win, especially at weekends with tourists heading to Cambridge. It does seem like they have enough stock, as all trains are 10-coaches when the ECML route is closed.
4 tracking between Coppermill Junction and Broxbourne would be the dream with CR2 joining just south of Tottenham Hale and calling at all stations to Broxbourne. The 4 tracking would then allow the speeding up of most GA services, something along the lines of:
2 tph LIV ST to STANSTED AIR calling at T Hale only.
2 tph LIV ST to STANSTED AIR calling at T Hale and B Stortford.
2 tph LIV ST to CAMBRIDGE NORTH calling at T Hale, Broxbourne, Harlow Town, B Stortford, Audley End and Cambridge.
2 tph STRATFORD to CAMBRIDGE calling at T Hale, Cheshunt, Broxbourne, Harlow Town, Sawbridgeworth and all stations to Cambridge.
2 tph LIV ST to HERTFORD E calling at Hackney Downs, T Hale, Cheshunt and all stations to Hertford.
2 tph STRATFORD to HERTFORD E calling at Lea Bridge, T Hale, Broxbourne and all stations to Hertford.
2 tph STRATFORD to B STORTFORD calling at Lea Bridge, T Hale, Cheshunt and all stations to B Stortford.
This squeezes an extra 2 trains per hour on the branch to Stratford which I'm not sure would work due to freight and ECS movements.
4 tracking between Coppermill Junction and Broxbourne would be the dream with CR2 joining just south of Tottenham Hale and calling at all stations to Broxbourne. The 4 tracking would then allow the speeding up of most GA services, something along the lines of:
2 tph LIV ST to STANSTED AIR calling at T Hale only.
2 tph LIV ST to STANSTED AIR calling at T Hale and B Stortford.
2 tph LIV ST to CAMBRIDGE NORTH calling at T Hale, Broxbourne, Harlow Town, B Stortford, Audley End and Cambridge.
2 tph STRATFORD to CAMBRIDGE calling at T Hale, Cheshunt, Broxbourne, Harlow Town, Sawbridgeworth and all stations to Cambridge.
2 tph LIV ST to HERTFORD E calling at Hackney Downs, T Hale, Cheshunt and all stations to Hertford.
2 tph STRATFORD to HERTFORD E calling at Lea Bridge, T Hale, Broxbourne and all stations to Hertford.
2 tph STRATFORD to B STORTFORD calling at Lea Bridge, T Hale, Cheshunt and all stations to B Stortford.
This squeezes an extra 2 trains per hour on the branch to Stratford which I'm not sure would work due to freight and ECS movements.
I would argue that in your scenario the semi-fasts to Cambridge should definitely call at Whittlesford Parkway - where there is huge demand to get into the City. And also Cambridge South.
I would argue that in your scenario the semi-fasts to Cambridge should definitely call at Whittlesford Parkway - where there is huge demand to get into the City. And also Cambridge South.
Cheshunt, even post-Tesco, is a busier station than Broxbourne, and an interchange for LO. Broxbourne is also a junction of course, but doubtful on the volume from the Harlow direction changing to Hertford East. In a future / quadding scenario, it's likely to be a place where stoppers end and fasts call, too.
Cheshunt, even post-Tesco, is a busier station than Broxbourne, and an interchange for LO. Broxbourne is also a junction of course, but doubtful on the volume from the Harlow direction changing to Hertford East. In a future / quadding scenario, it's likely to be a place where stoppers end and fasts call, too.
Yes but doesn’t this assume Broxbourne to be the end of Crossrail 2 - so significantly increasing in importance. There is far more room for additional platforms at Broxbourne than Cheshunt.
Yes but doesn’t this assume Broxbourne to be the end of Crossrail 2 - so significantly increasing in importance. There is far more room for additional platforms at Broxbourne than Cheshunt.
Personally, I would have CR2 takeover the Hertford East line, freeing up some more paths for GA to run extra services to Stansted, Cambridge and beyond if they wanted to. Although depending on where the slow lines get put, a flyover may be needed to access the Hertford East line so that it’s not conflicting with the fast line.
Yes but doesn’t this assume Broxbourne to be the end of Crossrail 2 - so significantly increasing in importance. There is far more room for additional platforms at Broxbourne than Cheshunt.
I meant more in relation to the stopping patterns (fast Tot > Brox services)
I agree re platforms, Cheshunt you'd need to take a property or two. I could see CR2 turning services at both, and indeed Hertford East if the Ware single line situation was resolved.
I meant more in relation to the stopping patterns (fast Tot > Brox services)
I agree re platforms, Cheshunt you'd need to take a property or two. I could see CR2 turning services at both, and indeed Hertford East if the Ware single line situation was resolved.
Nowhere easily available that would enable the turning back of services at Cheshunt. It was all Broxbourne or Tottenham Hale. AIUI Hertford was looked at, but the benefits were far larger by running the Hertfords fast from Cheshunt to Tottenham Hale.
2 tph LIV ST to STANSTED AIR calling at T Hale only.
2 tph LIV ST to STANSTED AIR calling at T Hale and B Stortford.
2 tph LIV ST to CAMBRIDGE NORTH calling at T Hale, Broxbourne, Harlow Town, B Stortford, Audley End and Cambridge.
2 tph STRATFORD to CAMBRIDGE calling at T Hale, Cheshunt, Broxbourne, Harlow Town, Sawbridgeworth and all stations to Cambridge.
2 tph LIV ST to HERTFORD E calling at Hackney Downs, T Hale, Cheshunt and all stations to Hertford.
2 tph STRATFORD to HERTFORD E calling at Lea Bridge, T Hale, Broxbourne and all stations to Hertford.
2 tph STRATFORD to B STORTFORD calling at Lea Bridge, T Hale, Cheshunt and all stations to B Stortford.
Turnford Station would be a nice thing to have, especially as it is quite easy to build a road to the proposed site and would be easily accessible from Hertford Regional College at walking distance and a short bus journey to the presumably still happening Brookfield Riverside development, which is a plan to finally to give Cheshunt a proper town centre. As part of this, 1250 homes were also proposed in an area with already crippling traffic, so any local transport improvements are a must, ideally before any new housing is built.
Also completely understandable you confused the county boundaries, they are a total mess here. In my opinion, splitting across the built up area North of London between Herts, London and Essex has denied the area so much investment in the past 20 years. Essex has a natural border via the River Lea (East of the Borough of Broxbourne), which may have made sense when all that existed was a few trading routes and small market towns on the way out of London, but now with the whole lot being built up, it doesn't add up. The infrastructure and transport needs vast improvements from somewhere.
The bit that concerns me is that nobody seems to be looking at the combined effects of Cambridge growth and Stansted expansion together. The bit of the West Anglia Main Line that will come under pressure is Stansted-Cambridge. If I had a limited pot of money for spending on the West Anglia Main Line it would go on platform capacity at the Airport and some battery bimode trains to run Stansted-Norwich and Stansted-Peterborough.
Agreed and Stansted especially is already a very busy location, the idea of increasing annual passengers by another 20 million/ year without a new terminal, 4 tracking of the line, a move towards 24 hour rail service towards London and at least a doubling of the Norwich and Crosscountry trains is absurd. Same with no serious proposal to create a rail link from Stansted to either Braintree or Colchester/ Marks Tey.
Stansted gets 31 million passengers/ year now. The trains may cope with present demand but the airport is ridiculously chaotic, buses and coaches would need some big improvements too as they shouldn't want any more people driving to the airport.
As for Cambridge, it really needs some kind of regional light rail. The town may not be that big but it has enough of a reach to towns like Haverhill, that buses are not enough.
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I would rather us in Broxbourne just join London, Harlow and Epping Forest can join us if they like. The area around the Lea Valley feels ignored at best by Herts and Essex anyway.
Cheshunt-Tottenham fast makes sense as a peak time service pattern for CR2 for services from Hertford East. There's no reason for Hertford East to not have CR2 services if it does come to fruition in my opinion, though it should be simplified in my opinion, to a Shoreditch-Battersea tunnel that solely serves the Lea Valley lines on its north end.
Cheshunt-Tottenham fast makes sense as a peak time service pattern for CR2 for services from Hertford East. There's no reason for Hertford East to not have CR2 services if it does come to fruition in my opinion, though it should be simplified in my opinion, to a Shoreditch-Battersea tunnel that solely serves the Lea Valley lines on its north end.
What would call at the stations between Cheshunt and Tottenham then? I believe the idea is for it to initially terminate at Broxbourne, but presumably a Hertford East extension would be an extension of the Broxbourne terminator, making it the stopper, as it is now? Don't forget that Hertford has North station as well which has potential to be very well served if the pre-covid GN timetable is brought back. While a semi-fast service on CR2 along the WAML could be expected (as the Reading EL services are now), it would make more sense as a substitute of the Bishop's Stortford terminators (or just running to Harlow Town if the Bishop-Stratford service should be retained.)
Not wanting to turn this thread into a Crossrail 2 general speculation thread (there have been a few already) but don't forget there are also plans for a branch to New Southgate as well as Hackney (which has options of going on to anywhere in northeast London really, e.g. the c2c suburban lines), both of which would need relatively high tph levels close to the Abbey Wood branch. Although the Abbey Wood branch does serve much busier places (Canary Wharf for instance), 8tph off peak would be roughly what would be expected of any other new-build crossrail lines. This means that you probably couldn't focus the majority of CR2 services on the WAML corridor, 6-8tph at best, and even that's only if you take over almost all the SW metro lines with frequency increases.
I think what you will have read is that the British Library extension has been given the go ahead and had a construction firm appointed which, because of its location, has provision in its basement for part of the Kings Cross platform.
No other part of Crossrail 2 has been given the go ahead. Some of the blog and media click bait stories have been completely misleading.
I would agree that Hertford East and Harlow Town would be good outer termination points as well as Broxbourne (we are talking a lot of TPH to turn here). It likely would have two stopping patterns like Crossrail now, to enable some semi-fast journeys to the outer stations.
It could therefore enable faster Cambridge services (e.g. passing the likes of Roydon - and maybe more of them) - say 4tph Cambridge/Ely longer term, and 4tph Stansted remain out of Liverpool Street.
And then many more services to Enfield and Cheshunt (LO/loop) to make that a metro too, say 6tph to each route if possible, giving a 5 min service through Hackney (which nicely covers a CR2 station at Dalston instead) - and up to Seven Sisters and Edmonton. That's a really good service.
Are there spare/not needed 720s as I've heard rumours of some being converted to 2+2 seating and used for Stansted Express services. Is that to add capacity for Stansted or to redeploy some of the current Stansted Express units elsewhere?
I think what you will have read is that the British Library extension has been given the go ahead and had a construction firm appointed which, because of its location, has provision in its basement for part of the Kings Cross platform.
Are there spare/not needed 720s as I've heard rumours of some being converted to 2+2 seating and used for Stansted Express services. Is that to add capacity for Stansted or to redeploy some of the current Stansted Express units elsewhere?
4 tracking between Coppermill Junction and Broxbourne would be the dream with CR2 joining just south of Tottenham Hale and calling at all stations to Broxbourne. The 4 tracking would then allow the speeding up of most GA services
I dug out an old book with the electrification around 1960, and there was apparently provision for lot more 4 tracking as the new towns (those post WW2 overspill developments) were expected to grow much bigger at the time. These locations are generally fairly obvious even today from the lattice masts that spanned the potential extra tracks (although some have been replaced)
Wasn't complete 4 tracking, but was 4 tracks between (and including) pairs of stations. The idea being fast train could overtake whilst slower one was between the two stations that it was stopping at.
Of course these days electric trains accelerate much faster, so possibly couldn't overtake a stopper calling at two stations, and the fast train be sufficiently far ahead not to delay the stopper.
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