Station name word order - Croydon

[Islineclear3_1]

Don't thnk so, although there is only a few metres in it.

See post #26

Yes sorry, I missed that one...

 

[Cricketer8for9]

South Croydon has become a separate place CR2; East and West Croydon feel like two parts of central Croydon and share the CR0 postcode.

 

[frankmoh]

South Croydon station is directly south of East Croydon via the virtues of the Brighton Main Line. That should be Southeast Croydon.

Although the real South Eastern Croydon station was Croydon (Addiscombe), which is northeast of East Croydon.

 

[Dr_Paul]

There was a station literally called 'Central' in the London Docklands, from 1880 to 1940 when it was blown up during the war. It was two stops after Custom House.

Central station on the Galleons branch always amused me: 'central' to what? It's a pity that the Docklands railway didn't revive the name, and called its nearby station Beckton Park. Here's a picture of Central, scanned from the Middleton book Branch Lines of East London; the only potential passengers appear to be a bloke in the shelter and a cat.

 

[izvor]

All right, I accept the challange!

The red blobs on the OS map, (using Street Map) are at grid references TR1464/5727 (East) and 1455/5840 (West). (To the nearest ten metres). The East station is therefore 14640-14550 = 90 metres further east.

However, the blobs are roughly in the middle of the respective stations, near the entrances. The west end of canterbury East's platforms are at TR1454/5728, and the east end of the West station's platforms at TR1459/5848, which is 50 metres further west.

But grid lines are not perfectly aligned with True North, except along 2 degrees W. Relative to the grid, lines of longitude converge towards the north, so at the longitude of Canterbury, given two points on the same grid easting, the more northerly of the two will be further east in longitude.

Using an online converter between grid and lat/long)
the blobs are
East station 1deg 4' 33" E, 51deg 16' 27" N
West station 1 deg 4' 31" E, 51deg 17' 4" N

A difference in longitude of 2 seconds of arc, which at 51 deg N is about 35 metres

The plaform ends are
(west end of East station) 1 deg 4' 28" E, 51 deg 16' 28" N
(north east end of West station) 1 deg 4' 33"E, 51deg 17' 6" E
Making the two stations overlap by 5 seconds of arc, or about 100 metres

VAR please!

This is all way above my head (I was just looking at a street map), but I accept defeat graciously.

 

[zwk500]

Can I mention East Grinstead which the full name of the town is used (not just Grinstead) it is many miles away from West Grinstead.

To be fair the cardinal direction is as much a part of the name as it would be if it were written Eastgrinstead, similar to Northampton and Southampton. Similarly in the same area you had West Hoathly station, although East Hoathly village is a little closer, being south of Uckfield.

 

[swt_passenger]

Newcastle is similar. A relative of mine got confused when he was making a journey from Tynemouth to Hartlepool, and I (perhaps not being as clear as I might have been) said you need to take the metro and then get the train from Newcastle station. “Central Station” didn’t click with him at all, and he actually ended up alighting at Monument and walking, being aware of having done that walk before.

Perhaps it might have been easier if Newcastle was actually “Newcastle Grainger Street”, and the metro station could then be simply “Grainger Street”, akin to the situation in Liverpool. Although well-sited, “Central Station” isn’t really central as such.

Newcastle‘s ‘Central Station’ was so called because it effectively replaced 3 other stations run by different companies, and I believe at the time was a fairly revolutionary idea. Old maps always showed its name as just Central Station. In the 1850s Newcastle‘s built up area was basically east/west along the river, so in that dimension it is fairly central.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Oct 2025 ==

The Tyne and Wear Metro…

Some of these names are geographically confusing. West Jesmond is north of where I think people would put the centre of Jesmond (near Jesmond station and church), although most of Jesmond is east of both stations. South Gosforth is east of where most people would consider Gosforth to be.

I agree Jesmond is odd, although growing up in Heaton I’d have placed the centre much further east, I always thought the two big cemeteries must have divided it from Newcastle. But having checked the late 1800s maps the built up area of Jesmond was all to the east, there was very little development along the railway corridor when the names were being dished out.

I believe South Gosforth was named for a small area around a farm of that name. 1850s maps use North Gosforth for the wider area towards Gosforth Park. I suspect here you also have to think of its name as being with respect to the wider rural area of Gosforth, not just the Gosforth high street we know today.

 

[The Pelican]

And became part of the County of London when that was created in 1888, although the surrounding area remained part of Essex until Greater London became a thing in 1965.

The manor of Woolwich is recorded in the Domesday Book as including territory on the north side of the Thames, although there was little there except the ferry landing.

Similarly North Greenwich, (now the name of the Greenwich peninsula, which was formerly nown as East Greenwich) , was originally the name of the station at the southern tip of the Isle of Dogs on the Millwall Railway (the site of the original Island Gardens station). However, that was never part of Kent.

This picture (accessed from https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Victoria_Docks_1872.jpg ) shows the layout of the area when only one of the Royal Docks- the Victoria Dock- had been completed. The thin strip of land which currently exists between the Royal Docks and the river thames, which North Woolwich is currently on, would have been less isolated then. The railways precede the later two royal docks in this area. It is interesting to imagine a Victorian equivalent to the Elizabeth Line and DLR tunnels between North Woolwich and Woolwich.

 

[Rescars]

To be fair the cardinal direction is as much a part of the name as it would be if it were written Eastgrinstead, similar to Northampton and Southampton. Similarly in the same area you had West Hoathly station, although East Hoathly village is a little closer, being south of Uckfield.

Perhaps it is surprising that some wag didn't try naming the two stations in East Grinstead "East" and "West" rather "High Level" and "Low Level"!

 

[zwk500]

Perhaps it is surprising that some wag didn't try naming the two stations in East Grinstead "East" and "West" rather "High Level" and "Low Level"!

Wasn't it one station, in the same manner as Lichfield Trent Valley or Tamworth?

 

[Tester]

Wasn't it one station, in the same manner as Lichfield Trent Valley or Tamworth?

It was indeed.

I was too late for it in service, but can remember 'going upstairs' where it was gracefully decaying.

Bigger than downstairs too!

 

[norbitonflyer]

Anotherv anomaly is that East Dulwich station is further north than North Dulwich, and West Dulwich is almost due south of North Dulwich

 

[Sunil_P]

Central station on the Galleons branch always amused me: 'central' to what? It's a pity that the Docklands railway didn't revive the name, and called its nearby station Beckton Park. Here's a picture of Central, scanned from the Middleton book Branch Lines of East London; the only potential passengers appear to be a bloke in the shelter and a cat.

And Birmingham has a station called "University" rather than the more specific "Birmingham University".

 

[Rescars]

Central station on the Galleons branch always amused me: 'central' to what? It's a pity that the Docklands railway didn't revive the name, and called its nearby station Beckton Park. Here's a picture of Central, scanned from the Middleton book Branch Lines of East London; the only potential passengers appear to be a bloke in the shelter and a cat.

A good question! It seems that Central was midway along the northern boundary wall of the Royal Albert Dock, hence the name. As it was provided solely for access to the dock and had no road access, perhaps the photo captures the height of the rush hour?!

 

[norbitonflyer]

A good question! It seems that Central was midway along the northern boundary wall of the Royal Albert Dock, hence the name. As it was provided solely for access to the dock and had no road access, perhaps the photo captures the height of the rush hour?!

There is a "Centrale" on the Croydon Tramlink.

And also Arena, without specifying which arena it is (clue: it's not the Wembley Arena!)

My favourite though is on the Sheffield Tram network, where the end of the line is only Halfway

 

[ThirteenArches]

But less well known, in the 1860s the LBSC tried to attract more business in Croydon by opening a short branch line to a third station, named Central Croydon.

Interestingly perhaps, on the two maps (both 6") in the NLS collection which name it, it is called Katherine St Station. On the 1" map it is just "Sta".

 

[Rescars]

Interestingly perhaps, on the two maps (both 6") in the NLS collection which name it, it is called Katherine St Station. On the 1" map it is just "Sta".

Perhaps the 6"" map just predated the opening of the station in 1868 before its name had been finalised?

Central Croydon had another claim to fame. When it reopened in 1886, although it was still part of the LBSC system, it wasn't served by any LBSC trains. All its services were operated by two other companies - the LNWR and the GER. There can't have been many other stations owned by a single company (as opposed to joint stations) which weren't served by the owning company. Anyone know of any others?

 

[frankmoh]

Perhaps the 6"" map just predated the opening of the station in 1868 before its name had been finalised?

Central Croydon had another claim to fame. When it reopened in 1886, although it was still part of the LBSC system, it wasn't served by any LBSC trains. All its services were operated by two other companies - the LNWR and the GER. There can't have been many other stations owned by a single company (as opposed to joint stations) which weren't served by the owning company. Anyone know of any others?

What on earth were the LNWR and GER doing in Croydon??? How would they have even got there?

 

[Taunton]

Central station on the Galleons branch always amused me: 'central' to what? It's a pity that the Docklands railway didn't revive the name, and called its nearby station Beckton Park. Here's a picture of Central, scanned from the Middleton book Branch Lines of East London; the only potential passengers appear to be a bloke in the shelter and a cat.

It was the location of the Central Offices of the dock company, being halfway along the Albert Dock. Surprisingly the two large 1883 buildings are still there, having somehow survived the WW2 bombing destruction of all around, and are now Listed. One was the Central Administration Building, alias the Dock Manager's House, for all the Royal Docks, and its neighbour is the Central Buffet, main canteen for the docks. The dock company owned the rail line, it was not the GER, so they used their own terms for the station names.

 

[Rescars]

What on earth were the LNWR and GER doing in Croydon??? How would they have even got there?

Showing what could be done long before TfL and the Overground had been invented! The LNWR came in from Willesden Junction Low Level via Kensington (Addison Road presumably) and Crystal Palace. The GER extended its workings from Liverpool Street to New Cross via the East London Line.

 

[etr221]

There can't have been many other stations owned by a single company (as opposed to joint stations) which weren't served by the owning company. Anyone know of any others?

The classic (?) case of this was in Ryde - Pier Head and Esplanade: jointly owned by the LSWR and LBSCR, but only served by the IoWR and IoWCR.

Phil Deaves' Railway Codes web site has - at http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/stations/notserved.shtm#pre - a list, with appropriate dates. Not necessarily complete - send him updates if you know any he doesn't!

 

[pdeaves]

Central Croydon had another claim to fame.

Phil Deaves' Railway Codes web site has - at http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/stations/notserved.shtm#pre - a list, with appropriate dates. Not necessarily complete - send him updates if you know any he doesn't!

Thanks; page now updated with Croydon! (typo in date to be corrected this evening)

 

[Cricketer8for9]

And do note correct spelling of Katharine St (second vowel is an a) in case this is also wrong.

 

[Thebaz]

Interestingly perhaps, on the two maps (both 6") in the NLS collection which name it, it is called Katherine St Station. On the 1" map it is just "Sta".

Indeed, and I know someone who has modelled this in OO replete with Katharine St name.

Can I mention East Grinstead which the full name of the town is used (not just Grinstead) it is many miles away from West Grinstead.

I was going to mention this. Considering their distance apart (roughly 22 mile drive), I have often wondered how this came to be and if there was ever any link between the naming of the settlements.

 

[Gloster]

Indeed, and I know someone who has modelled this in OO replete with Katharine St name.


I was going to mention this. Considering their distance apart (roughly 22 mile drive), I have often wondered how this came to be and if there was ever any link between the naming of the settlements.

Both place names seem to come from the same Old English root: grenestede meaning green place. It is probable that at some point it became necessary to differentiate between the two places called Grinstead: East and West is the simplest and most obvious.

EDIT: stede appears to have a meaning more akin to ‘pasture used for grazing’. Estgrenested was recorded in 1271 and Westgrenested in 1280.

 

[edwin_m]

Both place names seem to come from the same Old English root: grenestede meaning green place. It is probable that at some point it became necessary to differentiate between the two places called Grinstead: East and West is the simplest and most obvious.

East and West Bridgford are two other places some distance apart that probably got their prefixes when enough people were travelling far enough for it to become confusing.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Northampton and Southampton; neither terribly near Hampton.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Northampton and Southampton; neither terribly near Hampton.

They are correctly(-ish) named for their orientation (no pun intended) in relation to Hampton though...

 

[Gloster]

Northampton and Southampton; neither terribly near Hampton.

Hampton can have three origins: from ham-tun, meaning home farm or homestead; from hamm + tun, meaning farmstead in an enclosure or river bend; or from heah + tun, meaning high farm. Northampton comes from the first and Southampton is a variant of the second, it being an estate on a promontory. The need to differentiate between the two most important of the many Hamptons (I am sure that there are several mildly vulgar jokes floating around) seems to have become necessary once Mercia and contiguous areas became subordinate to Wessex.

Main source: Dictionary of English Place-Names (Mills, Oxford, 1998).

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Thanks.