Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

[Cach17]

Looking at the picture on the BBC and Guardian articles, I really hope that won't be the actual livery.

 

[zwk500]

I would assume they would run in passenger service, on diagrams like Amsterdam-Paris-London, not ECS.

It is possible, but in my view should make the ORR less likely to give spare capacity to Eurostar, not more (the latter is presumably what Eurostar want).

I suppose they won't necessarily need to keep the red/ blue distinction with new trains so such operations will be possible.

This is to me the most likely option. TGV-Ms focused on Paris, e320s focused on NL/DE services but with plenty of interworking in the diagrams.

 

[NCT]

Maintaining the entire Avelia Horizon fleet at Temple Mills doesn't make sense. Are they really going to run the entire Thalys through the channel tunnel and HS1 just for maintenance?

Unless they plan on cascading the Class 374s to the Red routes, but then that'd be running 400m sets on currently 200m journeys and they won't have enough units for that.

 

[Trainbike46]

Maintaining the entire Avelia Horizon fleet at Temple Mills doesn't make sense. Are they really going to run the entire Thalys through the channel tunnel and HS1 just for maintenance?

Unless they plan on cascading the Class 374s to the Red routes, but then that'd be running 400m sets on currently 200m journeys and they won't have enough units for that.

Eurostar Red and Eurostar Blue won't be operationally separate in the long term, no matter where trains are maintained. Diagrams covering both former Thalys and former Eurostar routes is the likely direction of travel.

 

[Class15]

"we will maintain trains that will operate services between Amsterdam and Paris at Temple Meads"

Would also need a diesel drag for that!

 

[Trainbike46]

Would also need a diesel drag for that!

Why would you need a diesel drag for that?

What section isn't electrified?

 

[NCT]

Eurostar Red and Eurostar Blue won't be operationally separate in the long term, no matter where trains are maintained. Diagrams covering both former Thalys and former Eurostar routes is the likely direction of travel.

This still feels extremely contrived. Physical train lengths and operational requirements naturally puts the 200m Horizon sets on the red routes and Class 374s on Blue. Any interworking would be purely be maintenance positioning moves, and this suggests Eurostar is trying to pull a fast one in front of the ORR.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Why would you need a diesel drag for that?

What section isn't electrified?

Well Bristol isn't electrified (yet).

 

[Trainbike46]

I agree it is unlikely that Eurostar will maintain all of the new trains in London. I don't think it is unlikely that there will be interworking between the blue and red service groups in the long term. Many red services already operate with 2x200m trains.

At the moment it is necessary to keep the red and blue service groups separate (though 374s have operated on Amsterdam-Paris!), as the PBAs and PBKAs can't operate through the tunnel. When the PBAs and PBKAs are gone, all stock will be able to go through the channel tunnel, so the need to keep the groups separate will have disappeared.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Oct 2025 ==

Well Bristol isn't electrified (yet).

Sorry I meant Temple Mills International depot, will correct my post

 

[quantinghome]

At the moment it is necessary to keep the red and blue service groups separate (though 374s have operated on Amsterdam-Paris!), as the PBAs and PBKAs can't operate through the tunnel. When the PBAs and PBKAs are gone, all stock will be able to go through the channel tunnel, so the need to keep the groups separate will have disappeared.

Isn't there an operational issue that would keep them separate? The blue services need to be on isolated platforms, whereas red you can just walk straight on. That means different platforms for red and blue services so it would be hard for them to interwork.

 

[Trainbike46]

Isn't there an operational issue that would keep them separate? The blue services need to be on isolated platforms, whereas red you can just walk straight on. That means different platforms for red and blue services so it would be hard for them to interwork.

In Amsterdam the platforms are in fact shared, and most (possibly all) stock goes to Watergraafsmeer between arriving and departing, so it is not an issue there.

In Brussels, there are two south-facing bays that handle terminating Eurostar blue services, one through platform for through Eurostar blue and red services, and 3 more platforms used for eurostar red services, ICE services, and TGV services.

In Paris, blue and red do use separate platforms.

However, I don't think there is any reason an arriving Eurostar Red service couldn't arrive into the platforms currently used for Eurostar Blue departures, or vice-versa. The security requirements are for departing services, not arrivals.

 

[RT4038]

Sorry I meant Temple Mills International depot, will correct my post

And I thought you were anticipating the ordering and delivery were going to take as long as the completion of HS4 to Bristol.......

 

[Krokodil]

Maintaining the entire Avelia Horizon fleet at Temple Mills doesn't make sense. Are they really going to run the entire Thalys through the channel tunnel and HS1 just for maintenance?

How often are they needed on depot? If they can go several days with just basic servicing (cleaning and tanking) before needing an exam on a depot then it shouldn't be difficult to plan diagrams such that they cycle through London.

 

[NCT]

How often are they needed on depot? If they can go several days with just basic servicing (cleaning and tanking) before needing an exam on a depot then it shouldn't be difficult to plan diagrams such that they cycle through London.

As I say, still contrived and smacks of a desperate attempt to block competition.

 

[jon0844]

At first glance my thoughts were this is Eurostar claiming they can't give up any space at Temple Mills because they are going to buy all these new trains and run services to all those new destinations other companies are proposing to do!

If this leads to the competitors being unable to muscle in to the market, what will actually happen?

Hopefully I'm being overly cynical and there's absolutely nothing to worry about.

 

[Sorcerer]

I was just thinking to myself yesterday when the ORR would announce who gets the extra space at Temple Mills, and now we see Eurostar are ordering new double-deck trains for their red and blue routes. If they are going to replace the ageing 373 sets I doubt this will throw a massive spanner in the works for future competition. When they talk about maintenance at Temple Mills could they mean heavy maintenance in the same way the Frecciarossa is based in Milan or Avanti's Pendolino fleet is based at Longsight?

 

[whoosh]

Trenitalia running to Milan even once daily would allow the fleet to receive heavy maintenance at their depot there rather than Temple Mills in London, so I can imagine any trains needing such work would be rostered to run on a daily service to Milan to later be taken to the depot while the rest of the fleet gets seen to in London and Paris. If nothing else it would make what would otherwise be an empty stock movement a little bit more lucrative, assuming that the ORR doesn't grant the depot space to someone else. At this point it might just be a question as to how much competition matters, otherwise Eurostar expansion would be an easy choice.

I can't see a cross channel operator being allowed to run without a heavy maintenance facility on both sides of the channel.

Regular trains in the UK are 'prepped' - various systems etc. tested every 24 hours mostly. Eurostar trains however, get 'prepped' before every trip through the tunnel. If it fails a prep and the issue can't be resolved, its off to the maintenance depot to be fixed.

The Channel Tunnel itself would preclude faulty trains running through it - even empty coaching stock ones, and can you imagine if a wheel flat showed up? "We need a path to wheelskate our set back to the continent at 20mph."

The vast distances involved, and the safety requirements of a roughly 30 mile long tunnel under the sea, I feel would mean a maintenance facility being required on both sides of the channel for all operators.

 

[Sorcerer]

I can't see a cross channel operator being allowed to run without a heavy maintenance facility on both sides of the channel.

Regular trains in the UK are 'prepped' - various systems etc. tested every 24 hours mostly. Eurostar trains however, get 'prepped' before every trip through the tunnel. If it fails a prep and the issue can't be resolved, its off to the maintenance depot to be fixed.

The Channel Tunnel itself would preclude faulty trains running through it - even empty coaching stock ones, and can you imagine if a wheel flat showed up? "We need a path to wheelskate our set back to the continent at 20mph."

The vast distances involved, and the safety requirements of a roughly 30 mile long tunnel under the sea, I feel would mean a maintenance facility being required on both sides of the channel for all operators.

If that's the case then I am actually more confident that Eurostar's order won't restrict competition too much because, as far as I am aware, the new double-decker sets will be for both continental and cross-channel routes partially to replace the 373s and old Thalys sets. Trying to base all them at Temple Mills is simply unrealistic in that scenario. Whether this affects the ORR's decision on allocating depot space for a competitor remains to be seen for a few weeks.

 

[Snow1964]

At first glance my thoughts were this is Eurostar claiming they can't give up any space at Temple Mills because they are going to buy all these new trains and run services to all those new destinations other companies are proposing to do!

It is not like they bought the land, and financed the building of the depot, so is there's to use exclusively as it is their private depot

If this leads to the competitors being unable to muscle in to the market, what will actually happen?

The ORR is still considering if part of the depot should be opened to second user.

At the same time DfT seems to have woken up about month ago and there was invitation to consider constructing an alternative depot privately funded (can't find the post where the DfT link was). Any extra facility might be more a servicing depot without a heavy maintenance facility if international users just turn around trains in UK, rather than base them here.

So in theory (even if that is not what happens), could have 3 operators in few years time, (Eurostar plus another at Temple Mills, and third with own servicing at Ebbsfleet or somewhere else)

 

[TheWierdOne]

The ORR is still considering if part of the depot should be opened to second user.

The ORR has in theory decided, the Guardian reported (link in post #1612) that they made their provisional decision yesterday. We are now just waiting for the announcement

 

[zwk500]

I can't see a cross channel operator being allowed to run without a heavy maintenance facility on both sides of the channel.

In the network statement, Temple Mills depot is described specifically as a light maintenance facility.

https://stpancras-highspeed.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/2026-HS1-Network-Statement-November-2024-update.pdf

 

[StephenHunter]

In the network statement, Temple Mills depot is described specifically as a light maintenance facility.
View attachment 190919
View attachment 190920

https://stpancras-highspeed.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/2026-HS1-Network-Statement-November-2024-update.pdf

c2c don't have a heavy maintenance facility on their entire weekday network. They have to send stuff to Ilford for that.

 

[zwk500]

c2c don't have a heavy maintenance facility on their entire weekday network. They have to send stuff to Ilford for that.

C2C aren't even a cross-Thames operator, so it's a slightly different risk calculation.

 

[TheWierdOne]

Eurostar insists double-decker trains will run to London and clarifies order

Eurostar explains more of its plans for the Alstom-built trains.

www.railmagazine.com

Eurostar has insisted its new double-decker trains will run on London routes from 2031, and that it will order a total of 50.

The new Celestia fleet will be built in France and stabled at depots in London, Paris and Brussels, but heavy maintenance will be carried out at Temple Mills International Depot.

“The first commercial services will run on London-Paris and London-Brussels from 2031, with new destinations such as Frankfurt and Geneva planned for the mid-2030s,” the spokesperson added.
[...]
Each 200-metre-long train will carry 540 passengers, and Eurostar has said some will work in pairs through the Channel Tunnel, leaving the option to split them mid-journey to reach different final destinations.

Eurostar is insisting that the double deckers will run to London, with the first routes planned to be London-Paris and London-Brussels. Heavy maintenance is apparently planned for Temple Mills, and there is potential for splitting and joining en route. I'm going to take a punt on Eurostar doing services to Switzerland that split en route to serve Geneva and Zurich while only using one HS1/Chunnel path.

Meanwhile we (or at least the people as nerdy as I am about the Chunnel) and the operators await the ORR decision with baited breath

 

[popeter45]

Meanwhile we (or at least the people as nerdy as I am about the Chunnel) and the operators await the ORR decision with baited breath

cant see it going down well if ORR decide to allow Eurostar to keep its monopoly cause of this last minute play

 

[Cach17]

cant see it going down well if ORR decide to allow Eurostar to keep its monopoly cause of this last minute play

That's assuming the ORR will be swayed by this opportunistic and seemingly rushed announcement by Eurostar. If they're gonna continue hogging the cross-Channel passenger market then the least they could do is reintroduce Kent calls!

 

[TheWierdOne]

That's assuming the ORR will be swayed by this opportunistic and seemingly rushed announcement by Eurostar. If they're gonna continue hogging the cross-Channel passenger market then the least they could do is reintroduce Kent calls!

It also assumes the ORR hasn’t already made their decision. The Guardian was reporting that the ORR had made their decision before Eurostar finalised their purchase. The ORR had a board meeting on the 21st which was reportedly when the provisional decision was taken, which was a day before Eurostar went public with the Celestias. Presumably the ORR wouldn’t have had advance notice of the deal and would have only had the vague expansion announcements that Eurostar have released, unless of course Eurostar and competitors have submitted a lot more in private than we the public have been made aware of.

 

[zwk500]

unless of course Eurostar and competitors have submitted a lot more in private than we the public have been made aware of.

They almost certainly have. The ORR won't have taken a wink and a nudge as proof of intent.

 

[danshrimp]

Seems unlikely that would go public with this the day after the ORR made their decision by pure coincidence. There are plenty of reasons why Eurostar would have wanted to keep their cards close to their chest and I think this confirms that they were doing just that.

 

[TheWierdOne]

The question is: is this a last minute play by Eurostar to try and influence the decision, or is it a victory lap of sorts where Eurostar are trumpeting that they have been given the depot space?