Presumable from a legal rather than what-the-railway-wants-and-will-actually-do point of view, the rules that apply will depend on when a ticket was purchased, not when travel takes place.
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Forthcoming changes to National Rail Conditions of Travel
- Thread starter redreni
- Start date
Presumable from a legal rather than what-the-railway-wants-and-will-actually-do point of view, the rules that apply will depend on when a ticket was purchased, not when travel takes place.
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R
RailUK Forums
Of course, but good luck at the gatelines. They all think it is basically a Tube, and it's one of the reasons I've been militantly against calling it a "Line" rather than a heavy rail brand like, uh, Crossrail (like Thameslink).
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
In practice the only way you could enforce your rights under the contract (NRCoT) would be to sue for the extra costs you have incurred, either a contactless single because you knew about it or a Penalty Fare if you did not. But those sums are too small for that to be worthwhile. There isn't really any legal channel to enforce TfL to accept the tickets in practice.
Oh indeed and I have been in a situtation where I was required to buy another ticket (not on the Elizabeth line) because the person at the barrier took the view that I had to abide by a change in rules that came in after I bought my ticket.
redreni
Established Member
That happens all the time already. It doesn't tell you anything about what the NRCoT says.
Tickets purchased before the amended NRCoT are published but used after must, of course, continue to be valid, but I'm sure TfL are on top of that and will instruct gateline staff to check the date of issue as well as the date of validity in order to determine if that's the case (sarcasm).
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I agree entirely, and I would also insist that they incorporate the BR double-arrow into the branding (same goes for London Overground, Merseyrail etc).
But the reality is many of their PAYG fares are (in my personal opinion, not TfL's) outrageous, so that it is often considerably cheaper to buy a paper ticket for a longer journey and start or finish short, which TfL isn't keen on.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Merseyrail does use the double arrow.
redreni
Established Member
It is, yes, but the staff are ignorant and incompetent because they have been trained the way TfL chooses to train them.
And TfL chooses to train them that way because they have designed the core stations on the false assumption that (a) nobody is making a journey that starts and/or ends beyond the Contactless area, so everybody can use Contactless and (b) everybody who can use Contactless will, even though they have priced Contactless journeys in such a way that it is routinely cheaper to buy a ticket, especially (but not only) if you have a Railcard. Accordingly they have no revenue protection measures to stop people who aren't using Contactless accessing the paid side of the London Underground network.
They have also tried to apply what sometimes amounts to deterrent pricing on paper tickets to and from EL core stations by not pricing any fares to those stations (so Paddington, Liverpool St, Stratford and Abbey Wood have fares priced by other TOCs, and the other core stations have no fares priced to or from the named station), and I expect they're annoyed it hadn't occurred to them that people can get around that by buying an overdistance ticket and starting or finishing short. Either that or they thought, wrongly, it would be sufficient to put "no break of journey on EL between Paddington and Abbey Wood" in their own Conditions of Carriage.
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Does it? Good.
Just TfL flouting the rules again, then.
As others have said, and is recorded in this forum by posts by me & others, staff regularly get this wrong. Note that there was an FOIA request, which makes it clear that it *is* allowed (on National Rail tickets), so I have that bookmarked now. However, the point stands, how would I, or anyone else, know that these conditions have changed?
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Presumably because you agree to them whenever you buy a ticket. How do you know it's permitted now, for example? By reading the Conditions.
Also, since I believe the penalty for incorrectly breaking a journey is to pay for a ticket which would have permitted it, what's the penalty at a station at which there is no such ticket?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
As all the stations are gated, you can't actually break the rule as you wouldn't be allowed to exit (there aren't any Advances on the EL that I know of, so until you've actually tried to leave the station you've not broken your journey). If you did push through the gateline, you would be in breach of one of the TfL Byelaws and be prosecuted for that, potentially.
If someone (perhaps unaware of the restriction) gets to the gateline and discovers they aren't allowed to leave, what ticket should they buy to be able to?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
A ticket to one of those stations, or use contactless. Like in every other case bar where there was no opportunity to purchase at the origin, you must purchase it before you board the train, you cannot regularise it afterwards.
In practice if caught out the easiest way is probably to use a debit card to exit and then go on the TfL site to retrospectively put it in as a zone 1 single from the terminus where you entered the Lizzie, as long as you don't do it too often.
I *suspect* what would happen is one of two things in reality - the TfL staff would offer to let you exit for a penalty fare (even though this is probably not the correct sanction), or they'd just let you out with no payment on a "OK, just this time" sort of basis, but you'd not be able to re-enter on the Lizzie.
redreni
Established Member
Yeah, in the case of this particular change, that's how you'd know (although it should really be flagged at point of purchase, especially if the itinerary includes the EL core, given it's the sole exception to a principle that otherwise holds, which is that you can break your journey unless you're travelling on an Advance or the restriction code text restricts break of journey).
The rule against break of journey in the EL core has been in the TfL Conditions of Carriage for ages, but of course people can say "well, I can't be expected to know that, and anyway, I didn't agree to that when I bought my ticket". They're proposing to add it to the NRCoT precisely because that's what people who buy a National Rail ticket agree to.
To be fair, you should never be prohibited from leaving a station (setting aside stopping short restrictions, which are a separate matter) - there are many perfectly valid reasons why you might need to abandon your journey, possibly at short notice.
The real issue is at the point of resumption.
Was there not a high profile case where someone did just that? Ended their journey short on an advance at a gated station and was charged the anytime fare?
Durham comes to mind.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That's all very well, but there isn't a fare that permits break of journey at Lizzie stations once this change has been made. I suppose a Penalty Fare does, but I don't know the TfL PF rules as to whether that's correctly applicable or not.
redreni
Established Member
I don't think you can buy a ticket once you've started your journey, even under TfL's rules, can you?
Presumably, in that situation, you just remain in the Elizabeth Line station for the rest of your natural life?
In practice most of the tickets concerned have a Maltese Cross, and if you're in zone 1 or on a reasonable route to an appropriate interchange station, you should be allowed to end your 'transfer' (as TfL call it) without penalty, even under TfL's rules for cross-London transfers. And anyway, since they can't hold you captive, they will invariably let you out, unless there are RPIs around who could potentially write you up before you go on your way.
The main issue is not being allowed to enter when starting short or resuming after a break of journey, so presumably all that would change is you'd no longer be able to get your money back for any Contactless fare charged if they didn't accept your ticket, because you'd have been trying to do something that would no longer be permitted.
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Day Travelcard?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Until you actually attempt to exit, though, you've committed no offence. You can stand there as long as you want.
I remember having a silly conversation like that at Regents Park on a Maltese Cross ticket. I basically said I was going to stand there until I was allowed out, and after a few minutes the gateline person relented having originally said they'd only let me out if I accepted a Penalty Fare. (I was in the right there though!)
15 years ago, it was Darlington where it happened.
Getting off train early costs Durham professor £155
A Durham University professor is charged £155 for getting off a train a stop early at Darlington.
www.bbc.co.uk
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Ah yes I meant what excess should you be charged. That is the only penalty for breaking your journey where not permitted is it not?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
At the moment it is, but what happens with regard to the Lizzie will depend on the exact wording of the change.
How should a "transfer" on a Maltese cross be treated for delay repay purposes? Is it part of the overall "journey", so if you're delayed on an EL service that results in you missing your connection, are you entitled to claim DR on that basis? What about if you're delayed on either the inbound or connecting leg - should those be claimed separately to any EL "transfer"?
redreni
Established Member
Depends if your intended journey, and it's timings, was based on the MCTs for the interchange stations plus the published 'transfer' time between them, or if it was based on a timetabled EL service, I suppose?
If I'm going from Reading to Abbey Wood, or Shenfield on the EL, I may wish to break my journey along the route.
I may wish to stop for something to eat, I may wish to stop for a comfort break.
TfL are now telling me this won't be allowed.
Why is that exactly?
My ticket is valid beyond the break point. Break of journeys are allowed on NR (bar advance tickets) and other Overground services.
I've been on a 'Maltese cross' transfer before, between Paddington and King's X on the Underground. The barriers allowed me to exit at Euston Square to get breakfast. I then walked down to King's X.
As I said in a previous post, I highly suspect this move is to force people to purchase a more expensive zones 1-6 Travelcard on top of their train fare.
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So, with no break of journey allowed on the Elizabeth line what I will be doing later this week won't be allowed. A walk from Hayes and Harlington to West Drayton largely along the London loop. Off peak return ticket from Martins Heron via Reading to Hayes and Harlington. Rejoin short/late afterwards at West Drayton. The sort of thing many of us regularly do.
Remember that TfL bizarrely treats the Elizabeth Line as National Rail on those sections, and as tube between Paddington and Abbey Wood. I suspect this change will continue that trend and only change what they consider the tube section
Should be permitted. The proposal is apparently, to quote the opening post:
Break of Journey is explicitly prohibited on the Elizabeth Line using Single/Return tickets between London Paddington and Stratford and between London Paddington and Abbey Wood.
That sounds like a pretty stupid rule that serves no purpose. So long as you buy the ticket before its origin, it shouldn't matter where you purchase it.
The person who came up with such claptrap should be redeployed.