Le Shuttle - could it include a walk-on passenger coach ?

[ocean_life]

How would we comply with the passport and security requirements of international travel?

Personally I like the idea of a Folkestone/Ashford - Calais bus service, however:

This is part of the problem. French/EU border controls are conducted on this side of the channel, so the French have to resource staff and it's probably not a popular work option (same with UK border staff having to work in Calais)

So, in order for services to operate from Ebbsfleet/Ashford these would need to be resourced by the French and at a cost to the operator.

Ok, lets use Folkestone Eurotunnel and Dover port instead as the border checkpoints. At the moment everyone who turns up there is either in a vehicle or being transported in a coach. Once they are at border control they are well within the ports. If they are denied entry into the EU they cannot be left to find their own way out of the facilities so they would have to be transported out by bus with their removed luggage, which is feasible but would have to be paid for by the bus operator. If they are in their own vehicle then the can just be sent to the eurotunnel/port exit, but you can't as a foot passenger.

In future in Dover biometric checks will be carried at the western docks. People will then rejoin the coach, which will be sealed and then transported to the Eastern docks. If the seal is broken then they will have to do it all again! French border control, as far as I know will still be inside the Eastern docks.

I have friends who work for P&O in Dover. They don't want foot passengers anymore. Both DFDS and Irish Ferries have never taken foot passengers, so economically it's the usual race to the bottom because it places P&O at an economic disadvantage. It costs money to run a foot passenger service. Firstly the bus and the driver from the Ferry Terminal to the berth. Then either the bus has to drive onto the boat, because passengers are not allowed to walk up the ramps anymore, or you use the stair bridges, which requires staff to watch passengers along the walkways and onto the boat. You require staff to lower the gangway up and down depending on the tides, and finally a repeat of this in Calais. Base this against very tight turnarounds of 40 minutes, so it slows down the process and costs.

They get passengers diverted off flights/Eurostar in London turning up in the middle of the night expecting to just get on a ferry, but unfortunately there are no staff for that. Again, it costs money.

Incidentally, the likes of Flixbus aren't popular amongst the staff. They often just leave passengers behind on the boats leaving the staff to get them into the ferry terminals.

 

[yorksrob]

Personally I like the idea of a Folkestone/Ashford - Calais bus service, however:

This is part of the problem. French/EU border controls are conducted on this side of the channel, so the French have to resource staff and it's probably not a popular work option (same with UK border staff having to work in Calais)

So, in order for services to operate from Ebbsfleet/Ashford these would need to be resourced by the French and at a cost to the operator.

Ok, lets use Folkestone Eurotunnel and Dover port instead as the border checkpoints. At the moment everyone who turns up there is either in a vehicle or being transported in a coach. Once they are at border control they are well within the ports. If they are denied entry into the EU they cannot be left to find their own way out of the facilities so they would have to be transported out by bus with their removed luggage, which is feasible but would have to be paid for by the bus operator. If they are in their own vehicle then the can just be sent to the eurotunnel/port exit, but you can't as a foot passenger.

In future in Dover biometric checks will be carried at the western docks. People will then rejoin the coach, which will be sealed and then transported to the Eastern docks. If the seal is broken then they will have to do it all again! French border control, as far as I know will still be inside the Eastern docks.

I have friends who work for P&O in Dover. They don't want foot passengers anymore. Both DFDS and Irish Ferries have never taken foot passengers, so economically it's the usual race to the bottom because it places P&O at an economic disadvantage. It costs money to run a foot passenger service. Firstly the bus and the driver from the Ferry Terminal to the berth. Then either the bus has to drive onto the boat, because passengers are not allowed to walk up the ramps anymore, or you use the stair bridges, which requires staff to watch passengers along the walkways and onto the boat. You require staff to lower the gangway up and down depending on the tides, and finally a repeat of this in Calais. Base this against very tight turnarounds of 40 minutes, so it slows down the process and costs.

They get passengers diverted off flights/Eurostar in London turning up in the middle of the night expecting to just get on a ferry, but unfortunately there are no staff for that. Again, it costs money.

Incidentally, the likes of Flixbus aren't popular amongst the staff. They often just leave passengers behind on the boats leaving the staff to get them into the ferry terminals.

It just goes to show, the market doesn't work. There clearly needs to be some sort of intervention so that foot passengers aren't treated as second class citizens.

The chunnel bus link is perhaps the best option.

 

[Mogz]

I’ve often wondered whether freight trains should have a “no frills” passenger coach added for those who don’t mind travelling very long distances and have plenty of time on their hands…

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’ve often wondered whether freight trains should have a “no frills” passenger coach added for those who don’t mind travelling very long distances and have plenty of time on their hands…

Back in the day that was a thing, a passenger coach was usually added to newspaper trains overnight. These days the costs would far outweigh the income - you would for instance need a guard which freights don't have, and the cost of them and all the shunting would probably exceed that of operating a long DOO EMU instead!

 

[Tetchytyke]

It is not worth attempting a foot passenger crossing now, for there is no longer a bus from Dover Priory station and you have to disembark from the transfer bus from the terminal to the ferry to traipse through border control - previously it was done on the bus.

It wasn't done on the bus when I did it ten years ago on the London-Calais day tripper ticket. I had to get off the bus twice, once to go through security and again to go through passport control. It was a faff. It was better on the Calais end in the old terminal, at least, where you went through passport control before boarding the bus.

At least a day trip is possible with those times.

If you can get yourself to Dover it is. But bear in mind P&O close check-in 90 minutes before sailing time, so for the 0945 sailing you have to be at the port by 0815. The first train from London arrives at Dover Priory at 0813, although there are earlier trains from Tonbridge and Gillingham.

 

[Tester]

Back in the day that was a thing, a passenger coach was usually added to newspaper trains overnight. These days the costs would far outweigh the income - you would for instance need a guard which freights don't have, and the cost of them and all the shunting would probably exceed that of operating a long DOO EMU instead!

An important distinction is that newspaper trains ran under passenger conditions (e.g. permissive block, facing point locks etc.).

Things like brake van trips required the signing of an indemnity, and that would certainly be too hard today (on top of the myriad other reasons!).

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you can get yourself to Dover it is. But bear in mind P&O close check-in 90 minutes before sailing time, so for the 0945 sailing you have to be at the port by 0815. The first train from London arrives at Dover Priory at 0813, although there are earlier trains from Tonbridge and Gillingham.

I wonder if this might end up extending further given the esoteric procedure they seem to have in place for doing the EES clearance - you have to walk to the Eastern Docks, then get on a bus which goes to the Western Docks for EES processing with the coach passengers, then be bussed back through the coach lanes.

I can see this making them drop the foot passenger service entirely because it'll just be so inconvenient and costly to provide.

 

[Class73Electro]

I wonder if this might end up extending further given the esoteric procedure they seem to have in place for doing the EES clearance - you have to walk to the Eastern Docks, then get on a bus which goes to the Western Docks for EES processing with the coach passengers, then be bussed back through the coach lanes.

I can see this making them drop the foot passenger service entirely because it'll just be so inconvenient and costly to provide.

I believe there is (at least was) something set in that foot pax provisions must be supplied at Dover - hence why P&O haven't dropped it entirely.

 

[zwk500]

It just goes to show, the market doesn't work. There clearly needs to be some sort of intervention so that foot passengers aren't treated as second class citizens.

The chunnel bus link is perhaps the best option.

The solution would be for foot passengers to travel in sufficient numbers. So your intervention would likely need to be a very big marketing campaign, together with some form of support for the fares to make the prices palatable.

 

[Trainbike46]

The solution would be for foot passengers to travel in sufficient numbers. So your intervention would likely need to be a very big marketing campaign, together with some form of support for the fares to make the prices palatable.

Foot passenger tickets are not that expensive (though prices have gone up a lot), at £26 each way per passenger now. A few years ago they were available for just under £10.

 

[Class73Electro]

The solution would be for foot passengers to travel in sufficient numbers. So your intervention would likely need to be a very big marketing campaign, together with some form of support for the fares to make the prices palatable.

the Portsmouth ferries have quite a large foot pax compliment, as does Newhaven

 

[Egg Centric]

I’ve often wondered whether freight trains should have a “no frills” passenger coach added for those who don’t mind travelling very long distances and have plenty of time on their hands…

You can get one on the Mauritania Railway, an experience that I think is on most rail enthusiasts' bucket list (even if very few make it in practice).

 

[Trainbike46]

The reality unfortunately is that P&O is a badly run operator. Wherever they have direct competition they are consistently the worst operator, and while competitors such as Brittany, DFDS, and Stena have opened or taken over routes, P&O has only ever shrunk, never expanded.

 

[thaitransit]

4tph on Eurostar? Really?

4 trains per hour is only every 15 minutes on a modern railway with ETCS level 2 or 3 signalling it would be able to support train movements every 90 seconds however most systems would cap it at 120 seconds to give a little lee way. Thus there is plenty of room for high speed freight trains on the eurostar lines whilst still allowing for a properly usable passenger train service. The most important thing is ensuring every train operates at same speed through the tunnels regardless of if its an intercity passenger train or a train carrying 40 foot containers or grain wagons.

 

[HSTEd]

4 trains per hour is only every 15 minutes on a modern railway with ETCS level 2 or 3 signalling it would be able to support train movements every 90 seconds however most systems would cap it at 120 seconds to give a little lee way. Thus there is plenty of room for high speed freight trains on the eurostar lines whilst still allowing for a properly usable passenger train service. The most important thing is ensuring every train operates at same speed through the tunnels regardless of if its an intercity passenger train or a train carrying 40 foot containers or grain wagons.

There is little market for freight operations on HS1.

We'd need to add additional access shafts and platform space at St Pancras but HS1 could be run a lot harder than it currently is.

Not sure expanding Eurostar service is truly the best thing to do in that scenario though.

 

[Starmill]

4 trains per hour is only every 15 minutes on a modern railway with ETCS level 2 or 3 signalling it would be able to support train movements every 90 seconds however most systems would cap it at 120 seconds to give a little lee way. Thus there is plenty of room for high speed freight trains on the eurostar lines whilst still allowing for a properly usable passenger train service. The most important thing is ensuring every train operates at same speed through the tunnels regardless of if its an intercity passenger train or a train carrying 40 foot containers or grain wagons.

4tph on 400m long trains? Plus Southeastern and Le Shuttle, and whatever amount of freight?

 

[Bald Rick]

My thought, could a low cost operator offer an Ashford - Lille service, you have the security infrastructure at both locations, OK so it would need staffing up.

the two bolded items are not necessarily compatible.

The question is would it profitable

No. If it was, you‘d have seen various prospective operstors proposing it. They haven‘t.

The alternatives are called easyJet, Ryanair and Flixbus.

and Eurostar booked more than a week ahead. Plenty of tickets to / from Lille for the week after next at £55.

 

[Trainbike46]

and Eurostar booked more than a week ahead. Plenty of tickets to / from Lille for the week after next at £55.

There's Eurostar Snap too if you want a low-cost short notice trip

 

[zwk500]

4 trains per hour is only every 15 minutes on a modern railway with ETCS level 2 or 3 signalling it would be able to support train movements every 90 seconds however most systems would cap it at 120 seconds to give a little lee way.

hS1 is already a 3 minute headwat with TVM.

Thus there is plenty of room for high speed freight trains on the eurostar lines whilst still allowing for a properly usable passenger train service. The most important thing is ensuring every train operates at same speed through the tunnels regardless of if its an intercity passenger train or a train carrying 40 foot containers or grain wagons.

This is the key factor, because slowing Eurostar down is as tricky as speeding freight up.