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TPE don't have the ability to print paper seat reservations for services that start at Leeds. So on a recent journey, despite having the wheelchair space reserved there was no indicator showing this. (There's no electronic indicator in wheelchair spaces on 185s.)
Their customer services say:
we've recently implemented a change to ensure that wheelchair user and cycle reservations are always specifically assigned to a coach so that passengers are able to easily identify where they need to be on the platform and train. Wheelchair user reservations remain valid and are upheld even if there is no accompanying paper label on board - the train crew can check who is reserved using their Passenger Assistance app.
To summarise, the behaviour you've noticed with regard to wheelchair user reservations on some of our services (including those which start from Leeds) is both correct and expected. We encourage you to continue booking any required wheelchair user spaces in advance of travel, and would like to reassure you that your reservations will be managed properly at all times."
The convention for seats varies between TOCs. Traditionally it was that if they aren't displayed they don't apply, but I've seen CIS messages stating that they do apply on LNER, and heard announcements saying that on Avanti.
I've also heard announcements on TPE recently saying that they are having problems with the reservation screens, but sit in your assigned seats and if there are any problems speak to the conductor.
Yes convention for a long time was that if reservations are not displayed then they do not apply (not unreasonably as how could you know if a seat or space was reserved or not?). I feel like in recent years there has been a general move on some TOCs (like LNER and Avanti) to enforcing these invisible reservations. It would be nice if the industry would agree a position and then publicise that position (whatever it might be). So really the answer to your question is how long is a piece of string? On some operators it might be on one service that the TM clearly announces that reservations are not valid and to sit wherever, on another they announce that they are valid and people should sit in them, or they might not even say anything and leave it up to passengers to argue the toss. And that might be three different approaches on the same operator! Certainly I've come across LNER services which have variously taken those approaches. It's a mess.
Obviously wheelchair spaces is a bit of a different proposition to regular seats so I can see more of a case for suggesting that if a reservation label isn't applied the reservation is still valid.
frequently I have a seat reserved despite also having a wheelchair space reserved, as a result of the system that makes it difficult to achieve a wheelchair space reservation as part of a ticket sale on many TOCs.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Do seats on 185s have electronic reservation indicators?
TPE don't have the ability to print paper seat reservations for services that start at Leeds. So on a recent journey, despite having the wheelchair space reserved there was no indicator showing this.
Why do TPE have this limitation? Clearly plenty of rail journeys commence at stations distant from the train or the crew's base, so it seems very odd for TPE to claim they can't do this.
Why do TPE have this limitation? Clearly plenty of rail journeys commence at stations distant from the train or the crew's base, so it seems very odd for TPE to claim they can't do this.
Why do TPE have this limitation? Clearly plenty of rail journeys commence at stations distant from the train or the crew's base, so it seems very odd for TPE to claim they can't do this.
frequently I have a seat reserved despite also having a wheelchair space reserved, as a result of the system that makes it difficult to achieve a wheelchair space reservation as part of a ticket sale on many TOCs.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Do seats on 185s have electronic reservation indicators?
19. Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths
Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.
In practice it doesn't, because Railway Byelaw 19 is not really enforced, so unless you plan to bring a private prosecution against another wheelchair user (not sure that would be productive) it's kind of a bit irrelevant. The staff should be checking themselves to make sure the space is free before putting you in it, and only a wheelchair user should occupy the space (yes I know!) so anyone/anything else can be told to shift.
With cycles it might be a bit annoying, but TOCs are generally either compulsory reservation for cycles or no reservations (compulsory on TPE), so again it's a bit moot. Cycle reservation cards were never printed anyway, though 802s can show a display above the cycle space.
frequently I have a seat reserved despite also having a wheelchair space reserved, as a result of the system that makes it difficult to achieve a wheelchair space reservation as part of a ticket sale on many TOCs.
There is no technical reason why it shouldn't be possible to make this seamless as part of the purchase, but there doesn't appear to be much will to make it happen, in my personal view.
It is not necessarily the individual TOCs, retailers or ticket issuing system suppliers at fault for the current status quo.
In practice it doesn't, because Railway Byelaw 19 is not really enforced, so unless you plan to bring a private prosecution against another wheelchair user (not sure that would be productive) it's kind of a bit irrelevant. The staff should be checking themselves to make sure the space is free before putting you in it, and only a wheelchair user should occupy the space (yes I know!) so anyone/anything else can be told to shift.
With cycles it might be a bit annoying, but TOCs are generally either compulsory reservation for cycles or no reservations (compulsory on TPE), so again it's a bit moot. Cycle reservation cards were never printed anyway, though 802s can show a display above the cycle space.
The wording of that byelaw suggests that it doesn't apply anyway if there is no 'notice' (which in the case of seats would mean a paper ticket or LCD display) specifically stating that it's reserved.
I've also heard announcements on TPE recently saying that they are having problems with the reservation screens, but sit in your assigned seats and if there are any problems speak to the conductor.
I had recently booked return trip to Liverpool for 6 on TPE, the seat reservations were split across 3 carriages, I contacted TPE who then allocated 6 seats together in the same carriage and I was sent a screenshot of the agents' reservation screen as "proof" of my seat reservations.
The convention for seats varies between TOCs. Traditionally it was that if they aren't displayed they don't apply, but I've seen CIS messages stating that they do apply on LNER, and heard announcements saying that on Avanti.
It’s quite ridiculous to still apply reservations if they aren’t showing but yes, LNER are absolutely doing this now. A recent journey between Doncaster and Edinburgh (via Carlisle so a reduced service up the ECML leading to busier than usual trains as it is) and the train that started at Doncaster came from the depot with a broken reservation system (all screens and lights off). Announcements said that they still apply which of course caused absolute chaos at certain parts of the journey in standard class and a few shuffles in 1st.
Of course, the worst part by far is staff were reluctant to assist in any way other than to keep saying you must sit in your reserved seat.
Probably for a different thread, but no end of reserved seats end up empty for the duration of the reserved journey, maybe it's time to start charging for reservations?
There are already threads that go into detail on this, sadly my phone isn’t bringing them up with a quick search but you may be able to find them. Fully agree the whole thing is a mess though.
The wording of that byelaw suggests that it doesn't apply anyway if there is no 'notice' (which in the case of seats would mean a paper ticket or LCD display) specifically stating that it's reserved.
It’s quite ridiculous to still apply reservations if they aren’t showing but yes, LNER are absolutely doing this now. A recent journey between Doncaster and Edinburgh (via Carlisle so a reduced service up the ECML leading to busier than usual trains as it is) and the train that started at Doncaster came from the depot with a broken reservation system (all screens and lights off). Announcements said that they still apply which of course caused absolute chaos at certain parts of the journey in standard class and a few shuffles in 1st.
Of course, the worst part by far is staff were reluctant to assist in any way other than to keep saying you must sit in your reserved seat.
There are already threads that go into detail on this, sadly my phone isn’t bringing them up with a quick search but you may be able to find them. Fully agree the whole thing is a mess though.
It wouldnt surprise me if TPE are required to put a business case to the DFT (and then have it sat on someones desk for 12 months followed by it being sent to a consultancy firm for approval) for such expenditure given how much railways are micromanaged nowadays. This will probably cost 1000 times what a printer would.
We've heard of LNER staff saying that before, which is an entirely baffling suggestion. That should very much not happen unless LNER has been doing bad things with their train configurations.
We've heard of LNER staff saying that before, which is an entirely baffling suggestion. That should very much not happen unless LNER has been doing bad things with their train configurations.
From experience this generally happens when things get retimed without any real consideration for consequences, but I think it’s very rare.
The one time I witnessed it first hand (not my seat but the opposite table of 4) had come from a train doing a Cambridge divert. I believe one group of 3 had booked tickets for a (not sure of the actual times so say) 1130 departure from King’s Cross and been assigned seats. The timetable had been subsequently changed and essentially the 1130 in the system now left at an earlier time but there WAS another train at 1130 that will have also been retimed.
As very few retailers (this is a few years ago so likely none then) give passengers useful information there had been no indication of these changes and both the party of 3 and another group of 4 people all had printed seat reservations for the same set of seats on the same departure time train to the same destination with the same calling pattern on the same day.
Staff on board spoke about fake tickets and reservations then when they realised that was nonsense wiped their hands of it almost straight away, so the group of 3 who were all adults split up and sat elsewhere as the group of 4 was a family with 2 children. They were all quite amicable and friendly thankfully but the general result of it is the 7 of them and anyone that overheard the discussion considers the railway to be a bit more incompetent so it’s definitely not helpful for the railway.
We've heard of LNER staff saying that before, which is an entirely baffling suggestion. That should very much not happen unless LNER has been doing bad things with their train configurations.
Neither train was out of schedule. In one direction my reservation was doubled up with someone going to Leuchars. Coming back it was someone travelling from Edinburgh to Newark. I had bought my tickets at the respective stations (KGX and Newcastle) only a few minutes before boarding, which the train manager said always seemed to upset the system - there seems to be a horizon beyond which the booking system vcan no oonger see existing reservations (possibly aftyer they have been loaded onto the train?)
In which case you loudly tap the seat next to them whilst saying loudly "Hello? Can you hear me? Are you okay?" And if they still don't respond you loudly say "Is anyone a doctor? This person is unresponsive I'm going to find the train guard, we need an ambulance".
. In one direction my reservation was doubled up with someone going to Leuchars. Coming back it was someone travelling from Edinburgh to Newark. I had bought my tickets at the respective stations (KGX and Newcastle) only a few minutes before boarding, which the train manager said always seemed to upset the system - there seems to be a horizon beyond which the booking system vcan no oonger see existing reservations (possibly aftyer they have been loaded onto the train?)
From experience this generally happens when things get retimed without any real consideration for consequences, but I think it’s very rare.
The one time I witnessed it first hand (not my seat but the opposite table of 4) had come from a train doing a Cambridge divert. I believe one group of 3 had booked tickets for a (not sure of the actual times so say) 1130 departure from King’s Cross and been assigned seats. The timetable had been subsequently changed and essentially the 1130 in the system now left at an earlier time but there WAS another train at 1130 that will have also been retimed.
As very few retailers (this is a few years ago so likely none then) give passengers useful information there had been no indication of these changes and both the party of 3 and another group of 4 people all had printed seat reservations for the same set of seats on the same departure time train to the same destination with the same calling pattern on the same day.
Staff on board spoke about fake tickets and reservations then when they realised that was nonsense wiped their hands of it almost straight away, so the group of 3 who were all adults split up and sat elsewhere as the group of 4 was a family with 2 children. They were all quite amicable and friendly thankfully but the general result of it is the 7 of them and anyone that overheard the discussion considers the railway to be a bit more incompetent so it’s definitely not helpful for the railway.
Appalling behaviour by LNER staff; sadly a minority of them really don't know how to behave , and the company seems to view people like us - who call the behaviour out - as troublemakers rather than want to do anything about it.
And yet they continue to demand that people sit in their assigned seats. Unbelievable.
Go back 5-10 years and LNER certainly seemed to have a policy - or at least established custom and practice - that any issues with reservations would mean that anyone who finds their seats occupied should find alternative seats (which is no different to any non reservable train), however the company now has fully embraced the airline pricing model that they seem to have thrown out common sense.
It's such a disappointing outcome, but is consistent with the attitude of LNER as a company, sadly.
Why do TPE have this limitation? Clearly plenty of rail journeys commence at stations distant from the train or the crew's base, so it seems very odd for TPE to claim they can't do this.
There are no booked or diagrammed services which usually start from Leeds (with the exception of the first eastbound Hull - which is an 802 and has digital reservations anyway).
The only services which start from Leeds are during engineering work and generally towards Hull.
There is no printer, no stores reservation labels and no train preparation or train crew staff based at Leeds.
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