Maybe it's time to start charging for reservations?

[Russel]

Moderator not: split from

Are undisplayed seat reservations valid?

TPE don't have the ability to print paper seat reservations for services that start at Leeds. So on a recent journey, despite having the wheelchair space reserved there was no indicator showing this. (There's no electronic indicator in wheelchair spaces on 185s.) Their customer services say...

www.railforums.co.uk

Probably for a different thread, but no end of reserved seats end up empty for the duration of the reserved journey, maybe it's time to start charging for reservations?

 

[Spartacus]

Probably for a different thread, but no end of reserved seats end up empty for the duration of the reserved journey, maybe it's time to start charging for reservations?

Absolutely epidemic proportions on TPE, but i largely don't think it's anyone's fault, just that so many people will be getting a return online where it specifies a particular train, and gives a seat reservation, even if the passenger doesn't want to tie themselves to one. With some of the short notice ones you can even sometimes get a reservation you didn't expect on your outward journey.

At least with paper tickets for those they can be easily removed when it's obvious nobody's sitting there.

 

[Jim the Jim]

Absolutely epidemic proportions on TPE, but i largely don't think it's anyone's fault, just that so many people will be getting a return online where it specifies a particular train, and gives a seat reservation, even if the passenger doesn't want to tie themselves to one. With some of the short notice ones you can even sometimes get a reservation you didn't expect on your outward journey.

At least with paper tickets for those they can be easily removed when it's obvious nobody's sitting there.

Sometimes I don't sit in a reserved seat because all the reservations are bunched together in one coach and the next one down is much quieter. On other occasions I've had split tickets with more than one reserved seat on the same train, and it's easier not to move.

 

[route101]

Sometimes I don't sit in a reserved seat because all the reservations are bunched together in one coach and the next one down is much quieter. On other occasions I've had split tickets with more than one reserved seat on the same train, and it's easier not to move.

Yes, seen that often all the reservations bunched together in one coach or even half a coach.

 

[Kite159]

Especially when you are given a reservation when booking a flexible ticket on a route where you just don't know when you are returning where the service frequency is reasonable enough not to worry about needing a seat reservation.

 

[renegademaster]

I think it should go the other way. That nobody is sitting in their reservation shows most people don't actually care. GA dropped reservations during COVID and nobody seemed to notice. National Express don't seem to find any justification for selling reservations beyond the first few rows and everything behind is unallocated

Eliminate reservations for all but one coach, and clearly label that coach as the reserved coach with signage everywhere

 

[MargaretNoodle]

Unfortunately with a lot of advance tickets the seat reservation is forced upon you so having to pay extra for something that isn't an option seems a bit unfair. I also really dislike it when I get a reservation, I like to make the decision where to sit (or stand) when I get on board.

It's probably an unpopular opinion but I think seat reservations should be removed completely. They don't guarentee a seat as if someone is already sat in your seat, if you're non-confrontational or don't want the hassle then that's the end of that. They create conflict between passengers. You get mayhem when the system goes down. They increase dwell times, for example Birmingham New street on a packed Voyager. And you potentially get lumbered with a seat you don't want. And of course the issue that there will be empty seats that people aren't sitting in because they say "reserved" even though the person who has reserved it has no intention of sitting there.

I really do think having dedicated priority seats and the rule that you vacate your seat if someone with limited mobility is having to stand then that really eliminates any use of them in my opinion.

 

[Russel]

Unfortunately with a lot of advance tickets the seat reservation is forced upon you so having to pay extra for something that isn't an option seems a bit unfair. I also really dislike it when I get a reservation, I like to make the decision where to sit (or stand) when I get on board.

The solution here would be to offer advance tickets without reservations by default, as on GA, but offer the choice of purchasing a reservation.

 

[A S Leib]

GA dropped reservations during COVID and nobody seemed to notice.

Going without seat reservations might work for TOCs where nobody's going for much more than two hours on a train; I doubt that would be as popular amongst longer-distance LNER, Avanti or CrossCountry passengers. (I know that e.g. Cambrian Coast services don't have seat reservations; I think distance between stations, especially west of Machynlleth, is the main difference.)

They increase dwell times, for example Birmingham New street on a packed Voyager.

The past few times I've used CrossCountry, I haven't been able to tell which carriage was which until on the train; fixing that should help.

Outside the UK, I've had cases where I've paid for a seat reservation and people sitting there already haven't moved; at least with the current UK system, you haven't then wasted money in reserving a seat.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A good start would be stopping pretending they are compulsory.

 

[JonathanH]

A good start would be stopping pretending they are compulsory.

If the LNER fares model is extended, they ultimately will effectively be compulsory for longer journeys, but you are right that there are too many short distance reservations on those same trains. When I have been from London to Milton Keynes on Avanti units the number of London to Milton Keynes reservations seems unnecessary.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the LNER fares model is extended, they ultimately will effectively be compulsory for longer journeys

The 70 Minute Flex is I suppose the remaining gap there, but I can't see that being a popular ticket as it's twenty quid for a tiny amount of flexibility. On normal Advances people are likely to stick to their booked seat particularly as LNER offer a seat picker and you can change it too. But requiring it for Anytimes makes no sense.

but you are right that there are too many short distance reservations on those same trains. When I have been from London to Milton Keynes on Avanti units the number of London to Milton Keynes reservations seems unnecessary.

Agreed. A few people will be on Advances but these reservations are otherwise near guaranteed not to be used.

 

[Ashley Hill]

When BR used to charge for seat reservations passengers could get quite irate if the seat wasn’t available, “I’ve paid for this seat” etc.

Nowadays the non-availability of a reserved seat would surely mean yet another reason to claim money back off a TOC, the hassle of which they could do without. You can’t claim back money on something that is free.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When BR used to charge for seat reservations passengers could get quite irate if the seat wasn’t available, “I’ve paid for this seat” etc.

And rightly so. The railway doesn't take these things seriously enough. "Complimentary" is an utter scam and should not be legal as a means of not providing something the purchaser has clearly obtained as part of the money they have paid; something should only be legally allowed to be disclaimed as "complimentary" if there is no financial consideration at all, i.e. anyone should be able to rock up and claim it without paying the company anything at all.

Using refreshments as an example, if they are genuinely complimentary I should, as a Standard class passenger, be able to have them too. Or even standing on a platform as the train stops holding no ticket at all. If those are not the case, and they indeed are not, they are not "complimentary", they are part of the price. Same with a seat reservation.

Nowadays the non-availability of a reserved seat would surely mean yet another reason to claim money back off a TOC, the hassle of which they could do without.

Good. Companies need to take customer service more seriously and not hide behind this scam.

You can’t claim back on something that is complementary.

I'm hoping for a legal challenge at some point on the "complimentary" nature of first class refreshments on Avanti despite Standard Premium being identical otherwise.

 

[35B]

And rightly so. The railway doesn't take these things seriously enough. "Complimentary" is an utter scam and should not be legal as a means of not providing something the purchaser has clearly obtained as part of the money they have paid; something should only be legally allowed to be disclaimed as "complimentary" if there is no financial consideration at all, i.e. anyone should be able to rock up and claim it without paying the company anything at all.

Using refreshments as an example, if they are genuinely complimentary I should, as a Standard class passenger, be able to have them too. Or even standing on a platform as the train stops holding no ticket at all. If those are not the case, and they indeed are not, they are not "complimentary", they are part of the price. Same with a seat reservation.

I'm hoping for a legal challenge at some point on the "complimentary" nature of first class refreshments on Avanti despite Standard Premium being identical otherwise.

I think the loophole is dreadful, and needs closing - I’d personally suggest an automatic 75% refund on the purchase price paid where “complimentary” services are not provided. But I don’t have a problem with different pricing tiers attracting different levels of offer. If they’re provided.

Going back to the OP question, though, the big issue with charging for reservations is that, where they aren’t bundled with the ticket, you are generally being charged more for a worse service.

Better by far to reduce the number of reservations issued, and keeping them available for people who value the reassurance of knowing they’ve got a seat. And then being really clear about how the system will work - including when things go wrong.

 

[Russel]

When something, such as a reservation or refreshments are included in the price of the ticket, is complimentary really the right description?

 

[Farnborough]

I think the loophole is dreadful, and needs closing - I’d personally suggest an automatic 75% refund on the purchase price paid where “complimentary” services are not provided.

Is a seat "complimentary"?

TBH I'd prefer that they fulfilled an (implied, if not explicit) obligation to provide a seat in return for the ticket. Being regularly forced to stand is not providing the purchased "service".

 

[stevieinselby]

Is a seat "complimentary"?

TBH I'd prefer that they fulfilled an (implied, if not explicit) obligation to provide a seat in return for the ticket. Being regularly forced to stand is not providing the purchased "service".

Except that it is.
What you have bought is the right to travel, not the right to travel in a seat.
Whatever you might think is an "implied" obligation, that is quite explicitly not the case.
How do you propose that train operators should meet your expectations of a guaranteed seat whenever you want to travel?

 

[35B]

Is a seat "complimentary"?

TBH I'd prefer that they fulfilled an (implied, if not explicit) obligation to provide a seat in return for the ticket. Being regularly forced to stand is not providing the purchased "service".

Possibly, though as @stevieinselby comments, there are other issues that then come into play. My thoughts are about “extras” that are then not provided, and where it’s in the operator’s short term interest to not make them happen rather than go the extra mile.

 

[alxndr]

Most people know if they’re the type of person who would use a seat reservation or not. Making it easier to opt out of having one would solve most of the issue IMO.

Personally I would never pick one unless I was certain of the times I was travelling and am boarding at a terminus as it’s exceedingly rare I use the reservation in any other circumstance.

 

[aron2smith]

A good start would be stopping pretending they are compulsory.

Exactly and charging for reservations is a horrid policy. Seems off putting hearing how reservations are handled in France. We need to move away from the emphasis on Advance tickets too.

 

[birchesgreen]

Yes, seen that often all the reservations bunched together in one coach or even half a coach.

Oh i hate that. Once my reserved seat was next to the only other person in an otherwise empty Pendolino coach. The thing is, i didn't know how many others would get on the train so stuck to the reserved seat even though he was visably pissed off lol. Luckily only one other person got on, so once the train was moving i went to another seat.

 

[A S Leib]

Seems off putting hearing how reservations are handled in France.

Although I think one of the issues there has been the reduction of classic line services; it wouldn't be my preferred solution, but if Avanti introduced mandatory reservations for London – Birmingham and LNR and Chiltern didn't whilst staying at 1-2 tph, at least passengers wouldn't be left waiting hours (or longer) for services which aren't fully reserved in the worst-case scenarios.

 

[stevieinselby]

Oh i hate that. Once my reserved seat was next to the only other person in an otherwise empty Pendolino coach. The thing is, i didn't know how many others would get on the train so stuck to the reserved seat even though he was visably pissed off lol. Luckily only one other person got on, so once the train was moving i went to another seat.

It's annoying when it happens on a lightly used train, but then it's easy enough to spread out once you realise most seats are free.
And if there aren't many seats free then it doesn't matter to you whether the reservations are all clustered together or not.
But for passengers without reservations, it's much easier to know that these two carriages are completely unreserved rather than be hunting through carriages that all have a mix of reserved and unreserved seats for one that you can sit in. And if you want to book travel for a group of people, it's going to be much easier to get seats together if the reservations have all been clustered together rather than scattergunned throughout the train.

 

[Farnborough]

Except that it is.
What you have bought is the right to travel, not the right to travel in a seat.

Indeed... so it's a bit churlish getting fussy about the other complementary add-ons

 

[signed]

Seems off putting hearing how reservations are handled in France

Comparing to France is comparing to the extremes.

Reservations in France are de-facto free, since they always come with your tickets on any TGV, (compulsory and non compulsory)-reservation Intercités, and some TERs to/from Paris. For TGV and compulsory reservation Intercités, you simply can't buy a ticket without a seat reservation.

If you already have a ticket for the non-compulsory reservation Intercités, and the reservable TERs, it's 1€75 to reserve a seat, but again, unless you travel with Interrail or a subscription, you will basically never buy a seat reservation separately

 

[Krokodil]

When BR used to charge for seat reservations passengers could get quite irate if the seat wasn’t available, “I’ve paid for this seat” etc.

They still say that with free reservations. In fact they say it with no reservations at all.

When something, such as a reservation or refreshments are included in the price of the ticket, is complimentary really the right description?

The ticket costs the same whether you've reserved a seat or not.

 

[bramling]

Moderator not: split from

Are undisplayed seat reservations valid?

TPE don't have the ability to print paper seat reservations for services that start at Leeds. So on a recent journey, despite having the wheelchair space reserved there was no indicator showing this. (There's no electronic indicator in wheelchair spaces on 185s.) Their customer services say...

www.railforums.co.uk

Probably for a different thread, but no end of reserved seats end up empty for the duration of the reserved journey, maybe it's time to start charging for reservations?

I’d say that’s sledgehammer nut territory. The problem of unused reservations could be solved by just making it very clear that a reservation is voided if not taken up within, say, 5 minutes of the train’s departure. The only issue I could see is if someone goes to the toilet or whatever, but that’s just one of those scenarios where people need to use their common sense.

Also need to banish this whole thing of trying to enforce reservations when they’re not displayed.

 

[A S Leib]

Reservations in France are de-facto free, since they always come with your tickets on any TGV, (compulsory and non compulsory)-reservation Intercités, and some TERs to/from Paris. For TGV and compulsory reservation Intercités, you simply can't buy a ticket without a seat reservation.

DB sell Flexpreis tickets including TGV journeys; can you make seat reservations for those, or are those fares only flexible until / from the last / first station in Germany? It does say that reservations are mandatory, free, and can not be cancelled.

 

[signed]

DB sell Flexpreis tickets including TGV journeys; can you make seat reservations for those, or are those fares only flexible until / from the last / first station in Germany?

I have no clue, I would assume they can be amended on the app (like a Business Première ticket in SNCF land, where it's flexible up until 30min after departure, but you still need to have amended your ticket to the train you want) and when changing the train it will give you a new seat reservation.

As I just tried you can't buy a standalone reservation from Paris to Berlin on the direct ICE

EDIT: That's indeed the condition (change the ticket before boarding) I see for the Flex Première ticket on the Paris-Berlin ICE on SNCF Connect

Echange et remboursement sans frais jusqu'à 30 min après départ. Dès 30 min avant départ, billet échangeable 1 fois max et non remboursable après 1 échange. Si emprunt d’un autre train, échange obligatoire.

Amendement and refund without charge up to 30 min after departure. From 30 minutes before departure, ticket exchangeable 1 time at most and non-refundable after 1 exchange. If using another train, amendement mandatory.