CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Gordonman]

Current accepted 197s out of use for 3 days or more. Anything without a date has been static for 12 weeks at least and dropped off the system.

197003- Holyhead since ??
197004- Chester since ??
197011- Canton since 11/10
197021- Canton since 16/09
197026- Chester since 04/10
197028- Holyhead since ??
197029- Holyhead since??
197030- Holyhead since??
197045- Landore since 29/08
197047- Crewe ETD since 22/09
197107- Crewe ETD since 10/09
197110- Chester since ??
197114- Crewe ETD since 10/09
197116- Crewe ETD since 10/09
197120- Chester since 11/10
197125- Chester since 11/10
197126- Chester since 03/10

Thanks for the update.
I believe 197045 has been moved from Landore - Canton
Also 197118 has not worked this week so far

 

[MP393]

Thanks for the update. I believe 197045 has been moved from Landore - Canton Also 197118 has not worked this week so far

197118 had a pretty hefty cow strike on the 8th October near Gobowen which suffered damage and had to be rescued so that’s another one awaiting repairs. It moved from Shrewsbury - Crewe ETD on the 9th October and is now back on Chester depot since the 13th.

 

[Bikeman78]

Without trying to drift off, that's how business works. If it meets the spec and has been paid for then that's that. May be in their interest to assist if there are issues if they want repeat business.

If the end product is rubbish then it's not going to encourage repeat business. I am shocked that LNER went for CAF. Thankfully it won't be my problem.

 

[Gordonman]

If the end product is rubbish then it's not going to encourage repeat business. I am shocked that LNER went for CAF. Thankfully it won't be my problem.

I don't think that LNER had much choice in the matter.More like DFT interference,yes you can have new trains as long as they are built by anyone bar Hitachi.

 

[Rhydgaled]

If the end product is rubbish then it's not going to encourage repeat business. I am shocked that LNER went for CAF. Thankfully it won't be my problem.

In my opinion, and with the benefit of hindsight, the 195s 196s and 197s would have been a rubbish product whoever built them. The very idea of still burning diesel under the wires in 2050 should have been a complete non-starter, but the procurement/specification somehow allowed both that and 'ironing board' seats.

I don't think that LNER had much choice in the matter.More like DFT interference,yes you can have new trains as long as they are built by anyone bar Hitachi.

Really? If so, that's quite a turnround from the "the answer's Hitachi, now what's the question" people claimed was the DfT mindset back when IEP (procurement of what became the class 800 and 801 units) was active.

Thanks for the update.
I believe 197045 has been moved from Landore - Canton
Also 197118 has not worked this week so far

Why was 197045 at Landore? Is it a TfW depot now - I thought it had been taken over by a train refurbishment/modification firm?

 

[vicbury]

Given the size of the fleets that are due to be procured for Chiltern, GWR and Northern, I'd be very surprised if CAF is routinely breaching its contract with TfW, nor would I say, as a passenger, that the product is rubbish.

That said, public sector procurement rules do mean that past poor performance should not preclude future tenders from winning, if they are written to a high standard and well priced. So maybe CAF isn't too worried.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Given the size of the fleets that are due to be procured for Chiltern, GWR and Northern, I'd be very surprised if CAF is routinely breaching its contract with TfW

I may well have asked this already, but I'm forgetful: does CAF actually have a contract directly with TfW, or is the contractual relationship an indirect one (via the ROSCO)?

nor would I say, as a passenger, that the product is rubbish.

As a (now only very occasional) passenger, I would say that:

• the Fainsa Comrail seat (aka 'Ironing Boards') used on the 195s (and would have been on the 197s if TfW hadn't paid extra) IS a rubbish product from my point of view
• I have insufficient knowlege to comment on the reliability / stirdiness of CAF trains and would not rule them out from future contracts without expert advice on the matter
• with the above points in mind, the class 331s and 397s are ok products in most passenger-facing respects (397s need more intermediate coaches and 331s should have had 196/197-style gangwayed cabs)

From where I'm sitting, the blame for CAF Civity UK units being 'rubbish products' lies with the customer's (TOC/DfT/TfW/ROSCO, not passengers) specification, or CAF's suppliers (eg. Fainsa) rather than with CAF themselves.

 

[Covshire1]

Looks like 197013 + 197014 on 1I10 0722 Holyhead to Birmingham International were involved in a fatality at Marston Green today. Returned North as 5D10 1434 Birmingham International to Chester in the afternoon.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

When will there be more diagrams for the 197s going to Birmingham please? I know of two diagrams is it? already.

 

[Caaardiff]

When will there be more diagrams for the 197s going to Birmingham please? I know of two diagrams is it? already.

Unlikely to be more until the 158s leave.

 

[tfw756rider]

Why was 197045 at Landore? Is it a TfW depot now - I thought it had been taken over by a train refurbishment/modification firm?

I'm not entirely clear on this either - the last I heard was that it was Chrysalis Rail (the train refurbishment/modification firm you speak of) which it re-opened as in 2019, then refurbished/modified ScotRail 156s then Transport for Wales (TfW) 153s.

I then got the impression that Landore and TfW had become friendly with each other (which could still be the case).

In the first half of the 2020s, Landore only seems to have been used for TfW storage, TfW repairs and TfW refurbishment/modification work. I've seen Mark 4 sets, Pacers, 150s, 153s and I think 175s there (all relating to TfW), and I've heard of (but not necessarily seen) 197s there, but nothing non-TfW-related.

However, Chrysalis Rail still state on their website on the 15/10/25:

Storage & Vehicle Management​

Chrysalis Rail has a rail depot in Landore, South Wales which is suitable for all rolling stock refurbishment, heavy maintenance and vehicle enhancement work. The depot is easily accessible by both road and rail, and can hold up to 8 vehicles in the main workshop across 4 roads. There is ample storage space at this facility for 50+ vehicles for warm storage. Fuelling, cleaning and maintenance services are available on site.
Chrysalis Rail also operates at Long Marston and other depots in the UK and can discuss storage requirements and solutions.

Although, on the 'Our History' page, no year later than 2020 is mentioned and no event later than the (re-)opening of Landore depot in 2019 is mentioned. Just a lot of the work they did from their foundation in 2007, to 2019.

 

[Caaardiff]

Landore is not a TFW depot. Its the nearest depot with road access after 197045 failed in Carmarthen.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Appears that 197033 worked 5T33 Chester Middle Yard - Holyhead yesterday.

Unsure if the move was to use the wheel lathe or further storage.

Whatever the reason,the number of ETRMS class 197's in service currently has been reduced from 10 to 8 with 197026 also stopped for collision damage repairs.

197005 is now working the Crewe South Yard - Barton Under Needwood route learners.Swapped with 197007on Saturday,and that unit has returned to normal service.

Ah well. Not worth checking RTT for 197033 wile I am in Cardiff then !. Thanks for the info.
197026 is back out - just (see my report below).

Current accepted 197s out of use for 3 days or more. Anything without a date has been static for 12 weeks at least and dropped off the system.

197003- Holyhead since ??
197004- Chester since ??
197011- Canton since 11/10
197021- Canton since 16/09
197026- Chester since 04/10
197028- Holyhead since ??
197029- Holyhead since??
197030- Holyhead since??
197045- Landore since 29/08
197047- Crewe ETD since 22/09
197107- Crewe ETD since 10/09
197110- Chester since ??
197114- Crewe ETD since 10/09
197116- Crewe ETD since 10/09
197120- Chester since 11/10
197125- Chester since 11/10
197126- Chester since 03/10

197026 is back in service. I saw it arrive at Cardiff Central at 14:42 (scheduled) yesterday (Wednesday 16/10/2025) from Milford Haven with a lot of passengers getting off !. It did not work before yesterday from what I saw on RTT when searching for it.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I'm not entirely clear on this either - the last I heard was that it was Chrysalis Rail (the train refurbishment/modification firm you speak of) which it re-opened as in 2019, then refurbished/modified ScotRail 156s then Transport for Wales (TfW) 153s.

I then got the impression that Landore and TfW had become friendly with each other (which could still be the case).

In the first half of the 2020s, Landore only seems to have been used for TfW storage, TfW repairs and TfW refurbishment/modification work. I've seen Mark 4 sets, Pacers, 150s, 153s and I think 175s there (all relating to TfW), and I've heard of (but not necessarily seen) 197s there, but nothing non-TfW-related.

Thanks, Chrysalis Rail is indeed the firm I was thinking of. I guess the bit I missed previously was that they offer 'warm storage' services, not just refurbishment / modification work, which could explain why it's not only stock with ongoing mods/refurb projects (eg. TfW 153s and mark 4s) that have been seen/reported there.

 

[tfw756rider]

Landore is not a TFW depot. Its the nearest depot with road access after 197045 failed in Carmarthen.

So it's still Chrysalis Rail then. They don't seem to do any non-Transport for Wales stuff there for some reason though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Oct 2025 ==

Thanks, Chrysalis Rail is indeed the firm I was thinking of. I guess the bit I missed previously was that they offer 'warm storage' services, not just refurbishment / modification work, which could explain why it's not only stock with ongoing mods/refurb projects (eg. TfW 153s and mark 4s) that have been seen/reported there.

Welcome, and yes indeed. I don't understand why they don't seem to have done anything non-Transport for Wales since the ScotRail 156s in 2019 though.

Anyway, we should probably leave it there in the 197 thread.

 

[Gordonman]

Appears that the overnight test runs did not go to plan on the central wales line.Does anyone know what units were involved?

 

[tfw756rider]

Appears that the overnight test runs did not go to plan on the central wales line.Does anyone know what units were involved?

Cambrian you mean. Central Wales is Heart of Wales.

Although both the ETCS-signalled Cambrian 'mainline' (Welshpool, Newtown, Machynlleth etc.) and the conventionally-signalled Central Wales / Heart of Wales line (Llandrindod etc.) serve Mid Wales, just different parts of it.

Similar situation in North Wales, where Barmouth, Porthmadog, Pwllheli etc. are served by the ETCS-signalled Cambrian Coast Line, but Llandudno, Bangor, Holyhead/Anglesey etc. are served by the conventionally-signalled North Wales Main/Coast Line.

But yes, unfortunately the 197s only made it as far as Shrewsbury and didn't go on the Cambrian on the first night. I'd like to know the unit numbers also. Hopefully the second night goes better.

 

[Gordonman]

A couple of moves yesterday,

197007 and 197011 worked 5Z07 Canton - Chester TMD.197011 was left at Crewe South yard en route for further storage.
197033 worked 5T97 Holyhead - Chester TMD after its visit to the wheel lathe.Still not in traffic today though.

This morning 197049 worked 5K49 Chester - Crewe Electric to join the queue of units awaiting the wheel lathe.

197118 also re-entered service today

Am I correct in stating that Cardiff Canton depot does not carry out any maintenance on the class 197's,just basic overnight servicing/cleaning?

 

[Turbo004]

A couple of moves yesterday,

197007 and 197011 worked 5Z07 Canton - Chester TMD.197011 was left at Crewe South yard en route for further storage.
197033 worked 5T97 Holyhead - Chester TMD after its visit to the wheel lathe.Still not in traffic today though.

This morning 197049 worked 5K49 Chester - Crewe Electric to join the queue of units awaiting the wheel lathe.

Am I correct in stating that Cardiff Canton depot does not carry out any maintenance on the class 197's,just basic overnight servicing/cleaning?

You are correct in stating that Cardiff Canton does not carry out any maintained on the Class 197's, just basic overnight servicing / cleaning. In my view it is a great shame that some sort of agreement between CAF and TfW cannot be reached so that 197's can also be maintained somewhere in the South.

 

[Russel]

Are these working though to Birmingham now?

Seen a couple at New Street recently.

 

[Turbo004]

Are these working though to Birmingham now?

Seen a couple at New Street recently.

They've been working through to Birmingham for a few months now.

 

[Jez]

Are these working though to Birmingham now?

Seen a couple at New Street recently.

I believe there are a couple of diagrams per day that visit Birmingham

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Oct 2025 ==

You are correct in stating that Cardiff Canton does not carry out any maintained on the Class 197's, just basic overnight servicing / cleaning. In my view it is a great shame that some sort of agreement between CAF and TfW cannot be reached so that 197's can also be maintained somewhere in the South.

I agree it's a shame Canton weren't allocated some for maintenance it would make things easier with so many operating in the South.

 

[tfw756rider]

Are these working though to Birmingham now?

Seen a couple at New Street recently.

The first 197 passenger service in and out of Birmingham was 8 months (and 1 day) ago, as of me posting this on the 18/10/25, and was a 3-car service:

197124 worked 1I10 0722 Holyhead to Birmingham International on the 17/2/25.

===================================

This was preceded by a 7-car test run that took place 9 months (and 4 days) ago, as of me posting this on the 18/10/25, and concluded that 2/3/4/5/6-car 197 services could serve all stations, but 7-car 197 services couldn't serve Wellington:

197033+197047+197123 worked 3Z11 1026 Shrewsbury Abbey Frgte Cs to Birmingham International on the 14/1/25.

===================================

A second 197 Birmingham passenger service diagram had started by the 25/7/25 (2 months and 23 days ago, as of me posting this on the 18/10/25).

 

[Russel]

They've been working through to Birmingham for a few months now.

The first 197 passenger service in and out of Birmingham was 8 months (and 1 day) ago, as of me posting this on the 18/10/25, and was a 3-car service:

197124 worked 1I10 0722 Holyhead to Birmingham International on the 17/2/25.

===================================

This was preceded by a 7-car test run that took place 9 months (and 4 days) ago, as of me posting this on the 18/10/25, and concluded that 2/3/4/5/6-car 197 services could serve all stations, but 7-car 197 services couldn't serve Wellington:

197033+197047+197123 worked 3Z11 1026 Shrewsbury Abbey Frgte Cs to Birmingham International on the 14/1/25.

===================================

A second 197 Birmingham passenger service diagram had started by the 25/7/25 (2 months and 23 days ago, as of me posting this on the 18/10/25).

There is 321 pages to this thread, so easy to miss the posts!

I've only started to notice them over the last couple of weeks, but then I try not to spend any more time than needed on the platform at New Street.

 

[tfw756rider]

There is 321 pages to this thread, so easy to miss the posts!

I've only started to notice them over the last couple of weeks, but then I try not to spend any more time than needed on the platform at New Street.

Yeah, understandable!

Hope my links to the relevant past posts in this thread have helped

In case you're wondering about other 197 service introductions, there's a sub-section of the 'History' section of the 197 Wikipedia article called 'Phased introduction' that has most of them.

 

[craigybagel]

I agree it's a shame Canton weren't allocated some for maintenance it would make things easier with so many operating in the South.

Bear in mind that in the long term there should be a much fewer 197s working around Cardiff when the 231s go on the routes they're meant to be on.

 

[Oxfordblues]

This morning 197049 worked 5K49 Chester - Crewe Electric to join the queue of units awaiting the wheel lathe.

They've just spent £10.5 million on a new wheel lathe at Holyhead, so why is there a queue at Crewe Electric?

 

[Lewisham2221]

They've just spent £10.5 million on a new wheel lathe at Holyhead, so why is there a queue at Crewe Electric?

Is the lathe at Holyhead actually up and running yet? Last I heard, the building work was more or less complete, but there was still work to be done, including getting the lathe up and running. That was a few weeks ago though (maybe a even a couple of months, thinking about it) so perhaps I just missed the announcement that the facility is open.

Does anyone know if the Holyhead lathe will be able to accommodate the MK4 sets? Or will they still need to go to ETD, along with the the 230s?

 

[Caaardiff]

They've just spent £10.5 million on a new wheel lathe at Holyhead, so why is there a queue at Crewe Electric?

More like a graveyard of decommissioned units.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

They've just spent £10.5 million on a new wheel lathe at Holyhead, so why is there a queue at Crewe Electric?

Alot of trains use the wheel lathe at Crewe Electric. Just to name a few 197s and Mk4 rakes.