CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[D365]

It's really not good that this new fleet of trains is having more issues than it should. Surely Transport for Wales Rail and CAF are going to have to work together at some point to properly sort them out? They've got to last for multiple decades.

If it’s cheaper to pay some fines and move on instead of fixing the trains then that is probably what will happen.

CAF is the maintainer for the Class 197s; why are these comments implying otherwise?

 

[Lewisham2221]

From where I was sat at the front the sound was coming from the lower right side, either under the floor or close to it. It sounded like some hard plastic was cracking.

There's an electrical cupboard on the second man's side of the cab. There's various relays and things (I think that's what they're called, I'm no electrician ) in there, which do emit quite a loud, plasticy sounding click which is very much audible from the saloon area near the cab. Most irritating when intermittent windscreen wipers are in use, as you get a loud, double-click sound at regular intervals.

 

[D365]

There's an electrical cupboard on the second man's side of the cab. There's various relays and things (I think that's what they're called, I'm no electrician ) in there, which do emit quite a loud, plasticy sounding click which is very much audible from the saloon area near the cab.

That is correct, the relays and circuit breakers are located within the secondman / non drivers side.

 

[Lewisham2221]

That is correct, the relays and circuit breakers are located within the secondman / non drivers side.

Haha, thanks, I knew that already, but then started doubting myself about if "relay" was the correct term

 

[Tester]

Haha, thanks, I knew that already, but then started doubting myself about if "relay" was the correct term

Come and do some signal engineering - then you'll know all about relays!

 

[tfw756rider]

It's really not good that this new fleet of trains is having more issues than it should. Surely Transport for Wales Rail and CAF are going to have to work together at some point to properly sort them out? They've got to last for multiple decades.

If it’s cheaper to pay some fines and move on instead of fixing the trains then that is probably what will happen.

That would be wrong for CAF to do. Their job is to maintain/fix the trains, not pay fines instead of maintaining/fixing the trains.

CAF is the maintainer for the Class 197s; why are these comments implying otherwise?

We're talking about CAF as the maintainer of the 197s and Transport for Wales Rail as the operator of them. I'm saying that they need to work together to make sure that the trains are maintained by the maintainer to a standard that the operator is happy with.

There's an electrical cupboard on the second man's side of the cab. There's various relays and things (I think that's what they're called, I'm no electrician ) in there, which do emit quite a loud, plasticy sounding click which is very much audible from the saloon area near the cab. Most irritating when intermittent windscreen wipers are in use, as you get a loud, double-click sound at regular intervals.

Sounds like it might be that then, thanks. Something I'll keep an eye (ear) out for.

That is correct, the relays and circuit breakers are located within the secondman / non drivers side.

Just curious, how do you know this particular thing about the 197s?

 

[AdamWW]

That would be wrong for CAF to do. Their job is to maintain/fix the trains, not pay fines instead of maintaining/fixing the trains.

More broadly their job is to maximise profit.

 

[tfw756rider]

More broadly their job is to maximise profit.

They shouldn't put that above meeting the operator's needs.

 

[158822]

@tfw756rider What they should do and what they probably will end up doing are different things. If the issue costs lots of money to fix and requires large amounts of redesigning then why bother? They have built the trains and presumably paid whatever penalties were in the contract. It isn’t really their problem and by that I mean that they don’t have to explain to passengers that the new trains that were promised have broken down again and Sprinters are still holding it all together. TfW have to do the explaining to passengers not CAF which means they will get blamed even if it’s not their fault.

 

[WirralLine]

Just curious, how do you know this particular thing about the 197s?

Not me you were asking, but its audible from the saloon behind the cab. You can hear various relays clicking for various things - eg if the wipers are switched on intermittent mode it clicks every time the wiper takes a sweep - quite irritating after a while!

 

[craigybagel]

Not me you were asking, but its audible from the saloon behind the cab. You can hear various relays clicking for various things - eg if the wipers are switched on intermittent mode it clicks every time the wiper takes a sweep - quite irritating after a while!

Although the audible relays clicking when the guard hits the close doors button is quite handy - it's a good time to put the train into forward if it's still in neutral, as it takes the transmission 8 seconds to switch over so you don't want to wait until you get two on the buzzer to do it

 

[tfw756rider]

@tfw756rider What they should do and what they probably will end up doing are different things. If the issue costs lots of money to fix and requires large amounts of redesigning then why bother? They have built the trains and presumably paid whatever penalties were in the contract. It isn’t really their problem and by that I mean that they don’t have to explain to passengers that the new trains that were promised have broken down again and Sprinters are still holding it all together. TfW have to do the explaining to passengers not CAF which means they will get blamed even if it’s not their fault.

Hopefully things will be properly sorted at some point (as they should be).

Not me you were asking, but its audible from the saloon behind the cab. You can hear various relays clicking for various things - eg if the wipers are switched on intermittent mode it clicks every time the wiper takes a sweep - quite irritating after a while!

Ah yeah, pretty obvious I suppose.

Although the audible relays clicking when the guard hits the close doors button is quite handy - it's a good time to put the train into forward if it's still in neutral, as it takes the transmission 8 seconds to switch over so you don't want to wait until you get two on the buzzer to do it

Useful in a way then.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Oct 2025 ==

I've been informed that there are more 197 Cambrian night-time test runs scheduled for this week (I actually missed the previous ones):

Realtime Trains | 3Q81 2130 Crewe South Yard to Machynlleth | 16/10/2025

Real-time train running information for 3Q81 2130 departure from Crewe South Yard to Machynlleth on 16/10/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

3Q81 2130 Crewe South Yard to Machynlleth

Departing on 16th October 2025​

Crewe South Yard dep. 2130, Crewe arr. 2145/dep. 2150, Shrewsbury arr. 2233/dep. 2236.5, Welshpool pass 2257, Newtown arr. 2310.5/dep. 2338.5, Machynlleth arr. 17/10/25 0025

Realtime Trains | 3Q82 0048 Machynlleth to Welshpool | 17/10/2025

Real-time train running information for 3Q82 0048 departure from Machynlleth to Welshpool on 17/10/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

3Q82 0048 Machynlleth to Welshpool

Departing on 17th October 2025​

Machynlleth dep. 0048, Newtown arr. 0120/dep. 0121, Welshpool arr. 0140

Realtime Trains | 3Q83 0149 Welshpool to Newtown (Powys) | 17/10/2025

Real-time train running information for 3Q83 0149 departure from Welshpool to Newtown (Powys) on 17/10/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

3Q83 0149 Welshpool to Newtown (Powys)

Departing on 17th October 2025​

Welshpool dep. 0149, Newtown arr. 0203

Realtime Trains | 3Q84 0212 Newtown (Powys) to Crewe South Yard | 17/10/2025

Real-time train running information for 3Q84 0212 departure from Newtown (Powys) to Crewe South Yard on 17/10/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

3Q84 0212 Newtown (Powys) to Crewe South Yard

Departing on 17th October 2025​

Newtown dep. 0212, Welshpool arr. 0225.5/dep. 0227.5, Shrewsbury arr. 0248/dep. 0255, Crewe arr. 0332.5/dep. 0338.5, Crewe South Yard arr. 0352

===================================

Realtime Trains | 3Q81 2130 Crewe South Yard to Machynlleth | 17/10/2025

Real-time train running information for 3Q81 2130 departure from Crewe South Yard to Machynlleth on 17/10/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

3Q81 2130 Crewe South Yard to Machynlleth

Departing on 17th October 2025​

Crewe South Yard dep. 2130, Crewe arr. 2146/dep. 2151, Shrewsbury arr. 2234/dep. 2254, Welshpool arr. 2315/dep. 2320, Newtown arr. 2336/dep. 2341, Machynlleth arr. 18/10/25 0030

Realtime Trains | 3Q82 0048 Machynlleth to Welshpool | 18/10/2025

Real-time train running information for 3Q82 0048 departure from Machynlleth to Welshpool on 18/10/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

3Q82 0048 Machynlleth to Welshpool

Departing on 18th October 2025​

Machynlleth dep. 0048, Newtown arr. 0120/dep. 0121, Welshpool arr. 0140

Realtime Trains | 3Q83 0149 Welshpool to Newtown (Powys) | 18/10/2025

Real-time train running information for 3Q83 0149 departure from Welshpool to Newtown (Powys) on 18/10/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

3Q83 0149 Welshpool to Newtown (Powys)

Departing on 18th October 2025​

Welshpool dep. 0149, Newtown arr. 0203

Realtime Trains | 3Q84 0212 Newtown (Powys) to Crewe South Yard | 18/10/2025

Real-time train running information for 3Q84 0212 departure from Newtown (Powys) to Crewe South Yard on 18/10/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

3Q84 0212 Newtown (Powys) to Crewe South Yard

Departing on 18th October 2025​

Newtown dep. 0212, Welshpool arr. 0225.5/dep. 0227.5, Shrewsbury arr. 0248/dep. 0255, Crewe arr. 0332.5/dep. 0338.5, Crewe South Yard arr. 0352

 

[43096]

They shouldn't put that above meeting the operator's needs.

Commercial businesses exist to maximise returns for shareholders.

 

[Gordonman]

Appears that 197033 worked 5T33 Chester Middle Yard - Holyhead yesterday.

Unsure if the move was to use the wheel lathe or further storage.

Whatever the reason,the number of ETRMS class 197's in service currently has been reduced from 10 to 8 with 197026 also stopped for collision damage repairs.

197005 is now working the Crewe South Yard - Barton Under Needwood route learners.Swapped with 197007on Saturday,and that unit has returned to normal service.

 

[Turbo004]

Appears that 197033 worked 5T33 Chester Middle Yard - Holyhead yesterday.

Unsure if the move was to use the wheel lathe or further storage.

Whatever the reason,the number of ETRMS class 197's in service currently has been reduced from 10 to 8 with 197026 also stopped for collision damage repairs.

197005 is now working the Crewe South Yard - Barton Under Needwood route learners.Swapped with 197007on Saturday,and that unit has returned to normal service.

197033 has gone for tyre turning at Holyhead

 

[tfw756rider]

Commercial businesses exist to maximise returns for shareholders.

Again, they shouldn't put that above meeting the operator's needs.

 

[Richard Scott]

Again, they shouldn't put that above meeting the operator's needs.

Without trying to drift off, that's how business works. If it meets the spec and has been paid for then that's that. May be in their interest to assist if there are issues if they want repeat business.

 

[tfw756rider]

Without trying to drift off, that's how business works. If it meets the spec and has been paid for then that's that. May be in their interest to assist if there are issues if they want repeat business.

Indeed.

 

[Jez]

Appears that 197033 worked 5T33 Chester Middle Yard - Holyhead yesterday.

Unsure if the move was to use the wheel lathe or further storage.

Whatever the reason,the number of ETRMS class 197's in service currently has been reduced from 10 to 8 with 197026 also stopped for collision damage repairs.

197005 is now working the Crewe South Yard - Barton Under Needwood route learners.Swapped with 197007on Saturday,and that unit has returned to normal service.

It appears there are 47 of the 197s in service today. This includes 21 of the non ERTMS 2 cars plus 8 of the ERTMS 2 cars. And 18 of the 3 cars.


197004 197005 197010 107011 197012 197020 197021 197045 197947 197107 197110 197114 197116 197118 197120 197125 197126 all appear to be out of service.

TFW would certainly struggle without the ERTMS sets with just 39 in service to cover around 47/48 diagrams.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

It appears there are 47 of the 197s in service today. This includes 21 of the non ERTMS 2 cars plus 8 of the ERTMS 2 cars. And 18 of the 3 cars.


197004 197005 197010 107011 197012 197020 197021 197045 197947 197107 197110 197114 197116 197118 197120 197125 197126 all appear to be out of service.

TFW would certainly struggle without the ERTMS sets with just 39 in service to cover around 47/48 diagrams.

I thought 003 was also out of service? Possibly stored at Holyhead?

 

[43096]

Indeed.

“May” being the operative word.

 

[wythallpaul]

I thought 003 was also out of service? Possibly stored at Holyhead?

That also applies to 197028 & 197030. Both have worked in service & both are now out of service. Also possibly stored at Holyhead.

 

[Jez]

I thought 003 was also out of service? Possibly stored at Holyhead?

yes 003 but i didnt count that as its one of the ERTMS units

 

[tfw756rider]

“May” being the operative word.

Reply acknowledged

 

[sd0733]

Current accepted 197s out of use for 3 days or more. Anything without a date has been static for 12 weeks at least and dropped off the system.

197003- Holyhead since ??
197004- Chester since ??
197011- Canton since 11/10
197021- Canton since 16/09
197026- Chester since 04/10
197028- Holyhead since ??
197029- Holyhead since??
197030- Holyhead since??
197045- Landore since 29/08
197047- Crewe ETD since 22/09
197107- Crewe ETD since 10/09
197110- Chester since ??
197114- Crewe ETD since 10/09
197116- Crewe ETD since 10/09
197120- Chester since 11/10
197125- Chester since 11/10
197126- Chester since 03/10

 

[wythallpaul]

Current accepted 197s out of use for 3 days or more. Anything without a date has been static for 12 weeks at least and dropped off the system.

197003- Holyhead since ??
197004- Chester since ??
197011- Canton since 11/10
197021- Canton since 16/09
197026- Chester since 04/10
197028- Holyhead since ??
197029- Holyhead since??
197030- Holyhead since??
197045- Landore since 29/08
197047- Crewe ETD since 22/09
197107- Crewe ETD since 10/09
197110- Chester since ??
197114- Crewe ETD since 10/09
197116- Crewe ETD since 10/09
197120- Chester since 11/10
197125- Chester since 11/10

Surprised 197126 doesn't make this list.

 

[sd0733]

Surprised 197126 doesn't make this list.

Added! Shows it was out yesterday but looking more closely it just did a shunt. Other than that it's not moved since October 3rd when it dragged to Chester by 197121, believe another tree strike victim.

 

[Tinsley 1976]

That also applies to 197028 & 197030. Both have worked in service & both are now out of service. Also possibly stored at Holyhead.

015 has ad front end damage after hitting a tree/branch today 14/10/25 another out of service for a while

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Current accepted 197s out of use for 3 days or more. Anything without a date has been static for 12 weeks at least and dropped off the system.

197003- Holyhead since ??
197004- Chester since ??
197011- Canton since 11/10
197021- Canton since 16/09
197026- Chester since 04/10
197028- Holyhead since ??
197029- Holyhead since??
197030- Holyhead since??
197045- Landore since 29/08
197047- Crewe ETD since 22/09
197107- Crewe ETD since 10/09
197110- Chester since ??
197114- Crewe ETD since 10/09
197116- Crewe ETD since 10/09
197120- Chester since 11/10
197125- Chester since 11/10
197126- Chester since 03/10

What's the reason behind the units that have been stored for 12+ weeks? Just general issues or is the story worse than that?

 

[sd0733]

What's the reason behind the units that have been stored for 12+ weeks? Just general issues or is the story worse than that?

Most are the Cambrian units but 004/110 have been out of service long term, believe they've given up quite a few parts. While there are spare Cambrian units to backfill there's not so much issue as it doesn't lead to a shortage as such.

On the plus side, 197026 and 125 off that list appear to be back out today.