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Greater Anglia nationalisation updates

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stadler

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If anyone is interested it appears that these will be the final privatised trains and the first nationalised trains:

Final privatised "Greater Anglia" service (and the final overall privatised GA franchise service):
• 00:50 London Liverpool Street to Southend Victoria 01:57

Final privatised "Stansted Express" service (but not the final overall privatised GA franchise service):
• 00:30 Stansted Airport to London Liverpool Street 01:21

First nationalised "Stansted Express" service (and the first overall nationalised GA franchise service):
• 04:10 London Liverpool Street to Stansted Airport 04:59

First nationalised "Greater Anglia" service (but not the first overall nationalised GA franchise service):
• 06:15 Southend Victoria to London Liverpool Street 07:27

I wonder what service will get chosen for the official press launch event. That is if they even have one. They did with SWR and i think C2C did as well so i presume that GA also will. I am guessing they will not go for the very first one when you consider how early in the morning it is.
 
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lordbusiness

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Personally I'm pleased the Hare is back, better than some of the other efforts as a brand identity. Especially that really annoying LNER thing.

Very poor coverage of the event on Look East tonight. I did chuckle when she trotted out the usual lines about paying private companies xx billion to run the railway (no mention of operating costs) implying that they won't have to pay it anymore so presumably it won't cost anything now and the railway will run itself for free!

The other point was made by a tory MP who pointed out that the nationalised industry will be demanding/ needing a big slice of the public purse and will competing against welfare, NHS, defence, education etc.... Granted that the industry has always needed that money and NR have been Govt owned for a while but it's likely to be harder to get going forward.

As I said when all this kicked off- I just hope they've done their sums right.
 

ollyexe2808

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An idea for a new thread: For any of those who feel GBR/Nationalisation is not the way to go, what would your preferred model to run the railways be?

I say this with curiosity because I feel the franchise model, whilst good in some ways, was broken long before COVID with the OLR often stepping in where contracts failed and were over promised and under delivered. I think it is pragmatic to have public control of infrastructure and public services and, as we yet don't even have GBR up and running, it feels very premature to write things off just yet.

GA has been amazing and I don't doubt for a second that they have some real expertise and foresight in the team. I also don't think that is going to disappear overnight, and may even be bolstered by closer Network Rail involvement.

Personally, I don't see a problem with nationalisation, plenty of countries have nationalised rail networks with a sprinkling of private operators to add competition. Absolutely the UK needs to up it's game in recognising the investment benefits of infrastructure rather than the costs. But I don't understand the outright animosity from some about nationalisation to be honest.
 

Adrian1980uk

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Most of the issues recently are either train faults or NWR's fault (track conditions, level crossings, etc). Certainly just an unfortunate blip at an awkward moment in time.
Yes that was tongue and cheek my remark, all 3 had been train faults.

Although GA have done an amazing job and do a really good service, there are problems GBR will have to deal with. Many of which are caused by success and increased passenger numbers.
 

Gooner18

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Tbh I’m not sure what’s changed, for example I used SWR on Thursday which have been nationalised a good few months ago , they still have the private operators name on some of the trains ( can’t remember its name ) however it seems to be on the newer trains and also for the first time ever I heard the name of the operator being said via the automated voice, I.e Welcome aboard this “ can’t remember the name “ service to Alton.
 

stadler

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Hopefully GBR can actually deliver 1tph to Peterborough!
I wonder if the through trains from London Liverpool Street to Peterborough (and from London Liverpool Street to Lowestoft as well) may also come back under GBR ownership. I remember hearing a rumour that they were considering bringing these back now that they have the bi mode Flirt trains but that has gone quiet.

I would also like to see the hourly Norwich to Stansted Airport service made in to an all stations stopper on the Cambridge to Stansted Airport section. It would finally give the local stations like Elsenham etc a direct link to Stansted Airport rather than having to change trains.
 

physics34

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Tbh I’m not sure what’s changed, for example I used SWR on Thursday which have been nationalised a good few months ago , they still have the private operators name on some of the trains ( can’t remember its name ) however it seems to be on the newer trains and also for the first time ever I heard the name of the operator being said via the automated voice, I.e Welcome aboard this “ can’t remember the name “ service to Alton.
Its all being set up for a set date for a big name change I presume. Youll see 'South Western railway' and 'Greater Anglia ' for a while yet.
 

JonathanH

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I wonder if the through trains from London Liverpool Street to Peterborough (and from London Liverpool Street to Lowestoft as well) may also come back under GBR ownership.
Running short trains, even a pair of 4-car 755s, into Liverpool Street isn't the best way to deal with the demand from stations south of Ipswich though. It is always going to be a challenge to balance the demand for through services from the branches north of Ipswich with the demand south of there, regardless of whether it is GBR or Greater Anglia.
 

dk1

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Running short trains, even a pair of 4-car 755s, into Liverpool Street isn't the best way to deal with the demand from stations south of Ipswich though. It is always going to be a challenge to balance the demand for through services from the branches north of Ipswich with the demand south of there, regardless of whether it is GBR or Greater Anglia.
Also now it’s an hourly service across the East Suffolk line it’s been stated several times that delays inherited from the main line would cause to much risk to the service and the single line sections Woodbridge-Saxmundham, Halesworth-Beccles & Beccles-Oulton Broad South. Through services are no longer on the agenda.
 

Jimcam

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I would also like to see the hourly Norwich to Stansted Airport service made in to an all stations stopper on the Cambridge to Stansted Airport section. It would finally give the local stations like Elsenham etc a direct link to Stansted Airport rather than having to change trains.
And, just as importantly, give the stations from Shelford to Elsenham 2 tph minimum towards Cambridge (and soon Cambridge South) throughout the day.
 

86246

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A very disruptive final day so far with signalling cable theft preventing anything going beyond Shenfield into London.

In relation to the outgoing operator, compared to a number of others I have experienced in the country they will be a hard act to follow. We have been quite fortunate in the east with the changes that have been made.
 
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saismee

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I wonder if the through trains from London Liverpool Street to Peterborough (and from London Liverpool Street to Lowestoft as well) may also come back under GBR ownership. I remember hearing a rumour that they were considering bringing these back now that they have the bi mode Flirt trains but that has gone quiet.
I think those are gone for good as the paths on the GEML are too precious. Everything links nicely for Cambridge and Lowestoft at Ipswich already, with trains being held to keep connections if the Norwich train is delayed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

A very disruptive final day so far with signalling cable theft preventing anything going beyond Shenfield into London.
Chaos. Not a fun day for me as frontline staff!
 
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Also now it’s an hourly service across the East Suffolk line it’s been stated several times that delays inherited from the main line would cause to much risk to the service and the single line sections Woodbridge-Saxmundham, Halesworth-Beccles & Beccles-Oulton Broad South. Through services are no longer on the agenda.
I think strategic decisions like this are part of the reason GA has successful metrics. People have to change trains more, but it's a more rational and resilient timetable because of just sticking to trunk routes + branches.
 

dk1

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I think strategic decisions like this are part of the reason GA has successful metrics. People have to change trains more, but it's a more rational and resilient timetable because of just sticking to trunk routes + branches.
It works very well on the whole. I do think there could be a little more joined up thinking with some of the routes such as Stansted/Cambridge to the East Coast resorts but there doesn't seem to be any appetite to bring that back.
 

185

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It's strange Greater Anglia is now doing so well given between 2004-2012 the service was a shambles with many trains falling apart
Some operators seem to behave like this to show they are a greatly improved business, even though... they are the exact same people responsible for making it terrible.

One other operator, also not long for this earth, has interestingly launched a staff consultation on how they improve their customer service offering. Just months from their demise.

It seems they weren't bothered with (avoidable) traincrew shortages, broken toilets, short formed services, failed aircon, short-staffed stations or anything else for several years - then, all of a sudden when Pete Hendy appears welding the DfTs axe and a fistful of P45s (ok, I mildly exaggerate), they are all of a sudden interested in actually running a railway.
 

F Great Eastern

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It's strange Greater Anglia is now doing so well given between 2004-2012 the service was a shambles with many trains falling apart and even blogs set up showing pictures of the squalid interiors... there were three branding changes in a row which didn't help... even the then newest 360s had completely worn seat covers. It was a total transformation when Abellio took over.

The service was a shambles because the SRA decided that giving the 'best value for the taxpayers' was more important than having a track record of running the railway well.

National Express literally drove me off using trains for a number of years the service was that bad, cheap and naff refurbishments when they were done, knackered fleets, neglected stations, poor passenger information at stations, sponsored announcements, nonsensical timetables and a determination to do everything as cheap as possible. The only thing that wasn't atrocious was the front line staff who had been very well trained by their predecessors.

But that's without even starting on the rainbow rakes of Class 90s with about 6 different liveries in, the stupidity of the name "One' and the absolute waste of paths on the GEML by running a two carriage Turbostar all the way from Lowestoft to London in place of what was a much higher capacity EMU from Ipswich.
 
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Intercity_225

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If anyone is interested it appears that these will be the final privatised trains and the first nationalised trains:

Final privatised "Greater Anglia" service (and the final overall privatised GA franchise service):
• 00:50 London Liverpool Street to Southend Victoria 01:57

Final privatised "Stansted Express" service (but not the final overall privatised GA franchise service):
• 00:30 Stansted Airport to London Liverpool Street 01:21

First nationalised "Stansted Express" service (and the first overall nationalised GA franchise service):
• 04:10 London Liverpool Street to Stansted Airport 04:59

First nationalised "Greater Anglia" service (but not the first overall nationalised GA franchise service):
• 06:15 Southend Victoria to London Liverpool Street 07:27

I wonder what service will get chosen for the official press launch event. That is if they even have one. They did with SWR and i think C2C did as well so i presume that GA also will. I am guessing they will not go for the very first one when you consider how early in the morning it is.
Looks like 720504 will be on the last Greater Anglia service tonight.
No allocation for the last Stansted Express or the services it's forming beforehand so could be cancelled. (Likely to just have a set swap though.)
 

F Great Eastern

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I don't really know who you're talking about so this does sort of read like you're making up a guy to get angry at, I can't think of anyone who's ever been a DfT fan. But as someone who would have been banging on about nationalisation 10 years ago, I don't think I would have come up with GBR. We know it won't insource capabilities/functions into NwR/train operators that should not have been contracted out, nor does it do anything about ROSCOs who are as close to "fat cat" as you can get in the rail industry, and it probably won't move to radically re-organise the timetable into something more reliable. My big worry with GBR is that the government is lauding them as 'nationalisation' but the organisation will not actually have the financial or policy independence to really change anything leaving a big rhetoric space in the next 5 or so years for someone to start advocating for a hard re-privatisation

I would entirely agree with this. But I'd say TOCs, on average, did not actually act as a buffer between government mismanagement and operations on the ground. TOCs are just contracted middlemen that the government can point to offload accountability when passengers are complaining, they only rarely and sporadically find themselves in a position to actually make good or bad decisions. This doesn't mean we should keep the structure just because it occasionally goes well. You said as much yourself that the incentives are not well laid out:

We can probably quite reasonably guess that not fixing anything because the contract is moving on soon is not a problem GBR will have.
GBR is positioned theoretically to be a good thing: an organisation tasked with the day to day running of the railway as well as for longer term planning. But it needs to actually have material independence from DfT/Treasury in order to achieve anything.
If it turns out GBR is just DFTO for everyone then this is obviously a bad thing but 1) this was practically speaking the situation under TOCs anyway and 2) no one advocating for nationalisation would have been advocating for That. Who has been "cheerleading" that structure for apparently decades as their "ideological dream"? All the voices I've seen who have been pushing for public ownership have been critical of the GBR structure (or what little we actually know about it) while conceding that it is a small step in the right direction. There's a lot of vitriol in the words you have for people who've been advocating for public ownership and restructuring - I just don't believe any of them would have settled for GBR as the be all and end all.

I do think this is a bit unfair. How else would you nationalise passenger operations without just waiting for TOC contracts to expire. It's just the lay of the land that GA is third and not at the bottom of the pile. Obviously it was ridiculous to renew Avanti's contract with a full term when GBR was a known policy, but that was (I believe) the misgivings of the last government who themselves knew they were "handing keys back in a few days" as well.
But this is my point entirely, the ideas that people had about nationalisation were pure fantasy, it was never going to happen in the romantic way they wanted it to. Many people on the opposite side of argument have said. you should be careful what you wish for as those crying for more government control were always going to get something like GBR rather than what they were asking for. What you are saying is happening is not something new to me, it's what I've been saying all along, but i've had many people on this forum tell me that their pipe dream was going to come true and what some of us were predicting what is now happening was scaremongering, but these people strangely have gone into hiding now and don't want to fess up that they got it wrong and own it.

The trouble with the whole franchise system which absolutely had it's faults, were that it was used by the DfT as a shield from all criticism. It's what some people in the industry have called the 'nationalise the praise and privatise the blame agenda' where figures from the DfT are only too happy to slap the DfT logo on new train launches and improvements and play up their involvement with it, but when something goes wrong they go into hiding like their life depends on it and start to point fingers at the operators, despite the fact the problem may be a result of the DfT tying the operators hands behind their back in private and then coming out with statements to the media suggesting the operator must do something to improve the service/overcrowding as it was not acceptable, whilst blocking any action that could be taken to do that.

The Transpennine Express 185 scenario was part of that. First wanted to order considerably more trains/carriages but the DfT stopped them from doing it saying they did not need them. When the services became overcrowded the DfT started issuing statements to the media saying that the operator has to address it. The whole set-up was sick and unfortunately a considerable part of the general public swallowed the idea that private operators were syphoning all the cash off and the DfT were trying to keep them honest and standing up for the consumer when in reality just like the Tories blaming Brexit for all of this countries problems to avoid people blaming them, a similar set-up was going on here where the DfT just shifted the blame.

Despite all the above I am actually supportive of nationally owned operators and they are run really well in many countries in Europe. However I also know the DfT and the way politics about transport works in this country and I just know that in this country it is completely unlikely that we will ever have an operation like those other countries. The DfT are addicted to power and hiving the whole thing off to a company that is not subject to considerable political interference run by proper people rather than at the whim of politicians was never going to happen as much as we want it to. The vast majority of the ignorant public as opposed to informed people thought nationalisation was the silver bullet to lower fares and have been enticed by the nationalisation policy on that basis, but in reality, if we look at this objectively, it's had quite the opposite effect, just look at LNER and the fares review which is clearly a stealth rise.

I know that nobody was going to ask for a set-up like GBR in nationalisation, but in reality that was always what you were going to get. The system that many campaigners for nationalisation wanted in reality was a fantasy that was never going to happen. I've spent years telling people that what will happen is exactly what we have now. A hapless DfT that has been part of the problem, having even more power than before and trying to squeeze the railway for money at the political whim of the government of the day. No doubt the £150m of savings they claim to be making will be off-set to reduce the taxpayer funding, rather than reinvested in the railways. The buzzwords of value for taxpayers and the need to balance what passengers pay and the taxpayers fund are already front and central and those of us who have been around the industry for decades know what the real meaning of that is.
 

Mikey C

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Taking an even more unpopular privatised sector, the water companies. Yes they've got away with disgraceful financial chicanery, but nationalisation isn't a magic wand that will stop the leaks and pollution spills, as that requires massive investment, which will either have to come from the government, which has no money, massively public borrowing numbers and other priorities OR it will have to come from the customers, i.e. us via higher water bills. Which will be politically unpopular.

There were serious flaws in the privatised rail model, but nationalisation won't be a magic wand. Especially now, when the public finances are in a terrible state.
 

PLY2AYS

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F Great Eastern

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You mean like this?
I'm not saying it has never happened, but to tar all operators with the same brush based on one instance like that is ridiculous, but par for the course of people whom are more interested in ideological debates rather than factual ones.

The argument you are making you can make about anything, for example if one football team is doing financial doping then surely that means they are all at it, etc.

But indeed, if there is so much free money floating around in the industry, can you point to the fare cuts that have happened in operators which are no longer in the private sector with the savings made? If not, what has happened to this 'free money' and where is it going now if it is not going to these evil private companies? It seems to have almost disappeared!
 
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But this is my point entirely, the ideas that people had about nationalisation were pure fantasy, it was never going to happen in the romantic way they wanted it to.
I know that nobody was going to ask for a set-up like GBR in nationalisation, but in reality that was always what you were going to get. The system that many campaigners for nationalisation wanted in reality was a fantasy that was never going to happen. I've spent years telling people that what will happen is exactly what we have now.
If you always want to bet on "nothing good will ever happen" then you will be correct most of the time. But I don't think this is a good thing. At least the people advocating for restructuring involving some kind of public ownership are bothering to imagine a better future. "Careful what you wish for", is all well and good but it's just capitulating to the status quo because you always want to wind up factually correct.
For what it's worth, I believe GBR is a microscopic step in the right direction, because if an enlightened government does emerge (as unlikely as it is), GBR will be in a position to enact long term planning and investment. You have to start somewhere and do things in small increments.
unfortunately a considerable part of the general public swallowed the idea that private operators were syphoning all the cash off The vast majority of the ignorant public as opposed to informed people thought nationalisation was the silver bullet to lower fares and have been enticed by the nationalisation policy on that basis
I don't doubt that the public have an on-average inaccurate understanding of the actual impact of TOCs, but that political sentiment could have been wielded in a good way - it doesn't have to be entirely correct to still be useful.
The vast majority of the ignorant public as opposed to informed people thought nationalisation was the silver bullet to lower fares and have been enticed by the nationalisation policy on that basis
This framing is a little ridiculous to me. The "vast majority of the ignorant public" did not give a damn about rail nationalisation and it had very little significance in the last election which we know for sure because GBR was a tory policy. So the two options most people consider worth voting for were doing exactly the same thing.
 

F Great Eastern

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If you always want to bet on "nothing good will ever happen" then you will be correct most of the time. But I don't think this is a good thing. At least the people advocating for restructuring involving some kind of public ownership are bothering to imagine a better future. "Careful what you wish for", is all well and good but it's just capitulating to the status quo because you always want to wind up factually correct.
For what it's worth, I believe GBR is a microscopic step in the right direction, because if an enlightened government does emerge (as unlikely as it is), GBR will be in a position to enact long term planning and investment. You have to start somewhere and do things in small increments.

I don't doubt that the public have an on-average inaccurate understanding of the actual impact of TOCs, but that political sentiment could have been wielded in a good way - it doesn't have to be entirely correct to still be useful.

This framing is a little ridiculous to me. The "vast majority of the ignorant public" did not give a damn about rail nationalisation and it had very little significance in the last election which we know for sure because GBR was a tory policy. So the two options most people consider worth voting for were doing exactly the same thing.

People can fantasise about whatever they want in their head, it doesn't mean it is realistic or going to happen, it's important to be realistic rather than having a wet dream about you ideological fantasies that are not based on the real world or the climate we have here. Like it or lump it, the DfT and the SRA before them have been a thorn in the side in progress in rail in this country. Saying something works a certain way in Germany, Switzerland, Austria or wherever is all well and good and those countries do have good rail systems, but the political appetite for them is different here because we're no hope of an enlightened government, however much we want one.

As someone who has been around the industry for the best part of 30 years now, I have seen many dark years in East Anglia in terms of abysmal train service provision being accepted without much being done about it but the two times it has been genuinely run very well, it's been tore up shortly after. So yes, as someone who travels a lot for leisure and business I am going to be bitter about that because the DfT are using the very same language now that the SRA did then and the train service was so bad that I stopped using it for years.

Just like with Brexit, a lot of the people who were involved in advocating nationalism are doing so with a completely unrealistic vision that I have always said from day one wasn't going to be the case in reality. I'm not for one moment saying that the previous arrangement was ideal, it surely was not working for parts of the country and that is an understatement and clearly there did need to be a shake up. I'm just far from convinced what we are getting with GBR is going to be any better and it may even be something worse because the chances are that any of the money saved through paying the private operators may just be taken out of the industry and further cuts on top, which will see us have even lesser money spent on our railways which will now be at a political whim.

If you look on social media every time someone talks about high fares in this country., 90% of the time they are mistakenly saying that it is only because the private operators are making huge amounts of money. That is public perception but a) it's not true as the margins are not as big as the public seem to think and b) if that was as simple of that the operators now under DfT control should have seen fare cuts. But the fare cuts haven't happened and ironically the nationalised operators are some of the very worst offenders when it comes to recent fare changes which have pushed the cost of travel up. Just look at LNER and what has happened with fares there. Can anyone say they want that coming to Greater Anglia?
 

Adrian1980uk

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Many problems with the franchise system were down to the lack of stability in my opinion, Greater Anglia had that after the National Express problems. How was any private company going to make any real investments on 7 to 10 year franchises with the likelihood of the next operator getting the benefit.

Hopefully GBR can add that but I doubt it as governments change every 5 years and budgets happen every year. I do expect new train orders though as the government can advertise that as investment without actually spending money as it's the ROSCOs money and higher leasing charges (obviously doesn't apply to GA as they have max 5 year old trains, I'm refusing to call them new now)
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The crucial thing quoted by Peter Hendy recently, is that the railway subsidy has doubled since Covid and needs to be brought back to that level.
Some of the cost will be taken out by the formation of GBR, but there is no golden ticket to spend more on rail, until costs are lower.
Cost reduction usually equals job losses, too.
No wonder there are no promises on lower fares.
 

PLY2AYS

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I'm not saying it has never happened, but to tar all operators with the same brush based on one instance like that is ridiculous, but par for the course of people whom are more interested in ideological debates rather than factual ones.

The argument you are making you can make about anything, for example if one football team is doing financial doping then surely that means they are all at it, etc.

But indeed, if there is so much free money floating around in the industry, can you point to the fare cuts that have happened in operators which are no longer in the private sector with the savings made? If not, what has happened to this 'free money' and where is it going now if it is not going to these evil private companies? It seems to have almost disappeared!
It’s all well and good you saying that, but that’s the culture in First Group. Which have owned several TOCs and were by far the largest owning group.

ScotRail have got rid of peak fares and Project Oval, whilst not specifically TOC specific, are both initiatives that are in their infancy.

I’m curious though, how you propose smooth and effective ticketing reform, whilst there are still private operators present?
 

vuzzeho

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Back on the GA nationalisation specifically, is there any word on when the Anglia Railway thing will come into effect? Additionally (I don't know if it's been mentioned in this thread yet) but Rail Magazine has an article saying Lord Hendy believes GA will get the GBR brand quite easily. The standards clearly aren't done yet, but does that mean we can expect to see any kind of difference visually?
 

saismee

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Back on the GA nationalisation specifically, is there any word on when the Anglia Railway thing will come into effect? Additionally (I don't know if it's been mentioned in this thread yet) but Rail Magazine has an article saying Lord Hendy believes GA will get the GBR brand quite easily. The standards clearly aren't done yet, but does that mean we can expect to see any kind of difference visually?
Seems that GA, C2C and NR Anglia's management is to be consolidated by mid 2026 according to a letter I received from the DFTO. So this can probably be expected by 2030 :D
 
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