Merseyrail semi-fast running antics.

[Haywain]

And surely a bit of time could be recovered at the Chester reversal!

Just how much time can be saved in a 4 minute turnaround?

 

[Djgr]

Just how much time can be saved in a 4 minute turnaround?

Yep. Staff run round like crazy to achieve this as it is.

 

[Tramfan]

Presume 4 mins is the minimum allowed turnaround time? In which case there's zero recovery time.

 

[Sheridan]

Presume 4 mins is the minimum allowed turnaround time? In which case there's zero recovery time.

I’m sure many may think that with a short unit like a 777 it could be done in 2 or 3 minutes, but whenever I’ve travelled from Chester and the incoming unit has arrived on time, we’ve typically left 40-60 seconds down. Insignificant in itself as it’s usually recovered by Hooton but just to illustrate that there’s no slack at all.
Sometimes it’s down to passengers running down the stairs to 7B but more often just because it takes how long it takes.

 

[WirralLine]

I’m sure many may think that with a short unit like a 777 it could be done in 2 or 3 minutes, but whenever I’ve travelled from Chester and the incoming unit has arrived on time, we’ve typically left 40-60 seconds down. Insignificant in itself as it’s usually recovered by Hooton but just to illustrate that there’s no slack at all.
Sometimes it’s down to passengers running down the stairs to 7B but more often just because it takes how long it takes.

The crew often use the staff toilets on platform 4B at Chester too which often accounts for the delay leaving when arriving on time inbound.

 

[jamesst]

The crew often use the staff toilets on platform 4B at Chester too which often accounts for the delay leaving when arriving on time inbound.

2 or 3 Chester trips in a row with no turnaround time at Chester and a loop at the other end, at some point you need the toilet regardless!

 

[Starmill]

Sometimes roughly 60 seconds can be made up on a 4 min turnaround, sometimes nothing...

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Given the imbalance in turn round times, I've never quite got why trains don't do alternate runs on the Chester & Ellesmere Port branches.

What impact would this have on off-peak Ellesmere Port - Chester connection times at Hooton?

 

[WirralLine]

2 or 3 Chester trips in a row with no turnaround time at Chester and a loop at the other end, at some point you need the toilet regardless!

Absolutely im not disputing that at all! Just shows that the 4 minutes isnt enough, you can't expect crew to have no toilet facilities for hours and want them to maintain concentration. Id expect some more delays in the coming months when the 4B staff toilets close for refurb.

 

[Starmill]

Absolutely im not disputing that at all! Just shows that the 4 minutes isnt enough, you can't expect crew to have no toilet facilities for hours and want them to maintain concentration. Id expect some more delays in the coming months when the 4B staff toilets close for refurb.

Ideally a single permanent (locked) toilet cubicle on platform 7 would actually be a better solution to that as it'd reduce walking time. However I don't know if there's any space in the building there to install a new one. It is something I've thought about before.

 

[jamesst]

Given the imbalance in turn round times, I've never quite got why trains don't do alternate runs on the Chester & Ellesmere Port branches.

What impact would this have on off-peak Ellesmere Port - Chester connection times at Hooton?

The service frequencies being different for a start, interworking would have to be done with the west kirby or new brighton line weekdays

 

[Djgr]

The service frequencies being different for a start, interworking would have to be done with the west kirby or new brighton line weekdays

Whilst there was once a time when Ellesmere Port and Chester frequencies were essentially the same, the reality is that the demand for the Chester trains is way way ahead of that for the Ellesmere Port "branch" and growing.

 

[childwallblues]

In the good old days before the lines were electrified beyond Hooton the service patterns were if I remember correctly
West Kirby to Hooton
Hooton to New Brighton
New Brighton to West Kirby

 

[Djgr]

In the good old days before the lines were electrified beyond Hooton the service patterns were if I remember correctly
West Kirby to Hooton
Hooton to New Brighton
New Brighton to West Kirby

Not so good days for Chester passengers

 

[BenW390Fan]

Example number 574637382 on why the Chester service needs some sort of fix up, granted not easy however.

It shouldn't really be acceptable to run fast all the way from Chester - Birkenhead because of a 7 minute delay, especially during peak time, even if the previous service was 7 mins delayed as well.



Note: The stop at Bromborough is an RTT error, it did not stop there.

 

[amahy]

Example number 574637382 on why the Chester service needs some sort of fix up, granted not easy however.

It shouldn't really be acceptable to run fast all the way from Chester - Birkenhead because of a 7 minute delay, especially during peak time, even if the previous service was 7 mins delayed as well.

Then arriving at Birkenhead 5 minutes early - fantastic!

 

[Falcon1200]

Then arriving at Birkenhead 5 minutes early - fantastic!

When the decision to run express was made, it was probably to the next major station, in the expectation that the train would arrive there on time. Changing that decision mid-journey because the train made up more time than expected is not practical and is a recipe for confusion.

 

[amahy]

When the decision to run express was made, it was probably to the next major station, in the expectation that the train would arrive there on time. Changing that decision mid-journey because the train made up more time than expected is not practical and is a recipe for confusion.

Surely route controllers should know the journey time between Chester and Birkenhead when running non stop though?

 

[jamesst]

Surely route controllers should know the journey time between Chester and Birkenhead when running non stop though?

But a lot can change en route, it's also impossible to get in touch with the driver once its started except via the signaller, who won't pass on semi fast information.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

How much can change on that route? Unless the train is late enough that might end up behind a (later) train from Ellesmere Port, there aren't really any conflicts with other services that could delay it when running non-stop from Chester. And it ought to be fairly easily knowable roughly how much time would be made up from missing each stop, so it shouldn't be impossible to say, this train is going to leave Chester 5 minutes late, therefore it needs to omit X stops to roughly make up the time, so we should run it fast as far as - say - Port Sunlight. Rather than miss every stop and end up sitting at Birkenhead because it got there early.

 

[Horizon22]

That definitely seems like a miscalculation - perhaps the controller was expecting a much later start than just 7 minutes for whatever reason? Waiting time for 7 minutes at the next booked stop isn't ideal at all.

 

[BenW390Fan]

For reference, the inbound service for 2C46 arrived at Chester 6 minutes late and it had a 6 minute turnaround, with the extra 2 minutes I presume being the crew being informed and informing the passengers of the change of plan. Usually from what I can tell, seeing as the inbound service was 6 minutes late, the outbound would run fast from Hooton - Birkenhead. Even this isn't great as it still leaves train a few minutes early at Birkenhead. I know Merseyrail will generally only run semi fast between 'main' stations, the majority of semi fast services stop at BKC as that's where the crew change occurs coming into Liverpool. What confuses me though is why they stopped running semi fast between Hooton and Rock Ferry, which is what used to happen, instead of fast all the way to Birkenhead.

I've attached some screenshots of semi fast services that ran today and their inbound services to show what they're working with. Note that although RTT times aren't exact, they're generally pretty accurate.

1: Inbound 2C14 arriving at Chester approx 4 mins late
2: Outbound 2C20 running fast HOO - BKC, arriving approx 4 mins early
3: Inbound 2C26 arriving at Chester approx 3 mins late
4: Outbound 2C32 running fast HOO - BKC, arriving approx 3 mins early

Granted, as @jamesst has said, I'm sure the decision for these services to run semi fast are sometimes made before the inbound gets to Chester, but the point I'm trying to make is that if the threshold for missing so many stops is as low as 5 minutes in some cases then surely something needs to change somewhere. Even with the infrastructure issues, there's changes that could be made elsewhere (i.e. only running fast to Rock Ferry instead of all the way BKC). But who knows, I guess it is easy for us to say solutions without knowing all the facts.

 

[Falcon1200]

Surely route controllers should know the journey time between Chester and Birkenhead when running non stop though?

Not to the degree that they can accurately know exactly when the train has regained sufficient time to start making stops again; Every situation is different!

And it ought to be fairly easily knowable roughly how much time would be made up from missing each stop, so it shouldn't be impossible to say, this train is going to leave Chester 5 minutes late, therefore it needs to omit X stops to roughly make up the time, so we should run it fast as far as - say - Port Sunlight.

And then the train leaves 3 minutes late - Or 7 minutes late! The decision has to be made, and communicated, before the train leaves origin, possibly if a short turnround is involved before the incoming train has even arrived. Changes to booked workings have to be simple and once made, kept to.

 

[Bikeman78]

When the decision to run express was made, it was probably to the next major station, in the expectation that the train would arrive there on time. Changing that decision mid-journey because the train made up more time than expected is not practical and is a recipe for confusion.

It does happen. Many years ago there a rare (at the time) example of a class 317 on a Peterborough to King's Cross stopper running non stop. I thought it seemed excessive, given that the stopper took 90 minutes and a fast run ought to be possible in around 55 minutes. It departed 25 minutes late. Off we went storming along the up fast running early through Welwyn North. The signaller diverted the train into the platform at Welwyn Garden City and it stopped as booked from there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Oct 2025 ==

For reference, the inbound service for 2C46 arrived at Chester 6 minutes late and it had a 6 minute turnaround, with the extra 2 minutes I presume being the crew being informed and informing the passengers of the change of plan. Usually from what I can tell, seeing as the inbound service was 6 minutes late, the outbound would run fast from Hooton - Birkenhead. Even this isn't great as it still leaves train a few minutes early at Birkenhead. I know Merseyrail will generally only run semi fast between 'main' stations, the majority of semi fast services stop at BKC as that's where the crew change occurs coming into Liverpool. What confuses me though is why they stopped running semi fast between Hooton and Rock Ferry, which is what used to happen, instead of fast all the way to Birkenhead.

I've attached some screenshots of semi fast services that ran today and their inbound services to show what they're working with. Note that although RTT times aren't exact, they're generally pretty accurate.

1: Inbound 2C14 arriving at Chester approx 4 mins late
2: Outbound 2C20 running fast HOO - BKC, arriving approx 4 mins early
3: Inbound 2C26 arriving at Chester approx 3 mins late
4: Outbound 2C32 running fast HOO - BKC, arriving approx 3 mins early

Granted, as @jamesst has said, I'm sure the decision for these services to run semi fast are sometimes made before the inbound gets to Chester, but the point I'm trying to make is that if the threshold for missing so many stops is as low as 5 minutes in some cases then surely something needs to change somewhere. Even with the infrastructure issues, there's changes that could be made elsewhere (i.e. only running fast to Rock Ferry instead of all the way BKC). But who knows, I guess it is easy for us to say solutions without knowing all the facts.

Imagine if London Underground started running trains fast when they were five minutes late!

 

[Horizon22]

Imagine if London Underground started running trains fast when they were five minutes late!

They have a very different crew structure and London Underground regularly turn trains short of destination (another recovery method, better suited for core routes with high frequency) where infrastructure allows.

 

[enginedin]

It shouldn't really be acceptable to run fast all the way from Chester - Birkenhead because of a 7 minute delay,

but, the service is every 15 mins. Sure, there will have been some people who will have been disrupted by an additional 8(!!) minutes relative to the delay of the 1730, but this means that there will be no impact on the services out of Liverpool. As a reminder, these services go through Liverpool Central which is busier in passenger numbers than Lime Street, so reducing disruption there should be the absolute priority

 

[jamesst]

An intensive frequent network and a control that like everywhere else on the railway runs on minimal staffing pretty much means once the decisions been made that's it. Controllers have a high workload and I doubt the time to just sit there watching the progress of one service

 

[BenW390Fan]

I feel that half the issue is having a timetabled 30 second set-down time in the loop at all stations. Especially during peak, services would stand for at least 45 seconds at all the loop stations which often means trains leave the loop 3 mins late, and with little to no recovery time heading outbound it's no wonder there's so many services running fast. I'm not sure how it can be resolved though, especially with trains arriving every 2/3 mins around the loop often and a single track.

Take this service for example, 2C14. On time up until the loop, reaches 4 mins late at Chester, return service (2C20) runs fast from HOO - BKC. Even with allowances it's struggling to keep to time.

 

[Krokodil]

Not to the degree that they can accurately know exactly when the train has regained sufficient time to start making stops again; Every situation is different!

It's really not that difficult to have a set of standard scenarios in a manual.

- Inbound service is running x minutes late, therefore run fast from Hooton to Rock Ferry
- Inbound service y minutes late, therefore run fast from Hooton to Birkenhead
- Inbound service z minutes late, therefore turn back short at Hooton
etc.

Clearly running fast the whole way just for a seven minute delay was overkill. Whenever I've been on a skip-stop service it has run fast from Hooton, not from Chester. Running fast from Chester extends the turnaround time too, as the passengers need to be informed before departure and given the opportunity to alight. Not an issue when the fast running starts at Hooton because they can be informed on the move.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Clearly running fast the whole way just for a seven minute delay was overkill. Whenever I've been on a skip-stop service it has run fast from Hooton, not from Chester. Running fast from Chester extends the turnaround time too, as the passengers need to be informed before departure and given the opportunity to alight. Not an issue when the fast running starts at Hooton because they can be informed on the move.

Yep. Also gives the possibility of a much shorter delay for passengers travelling to stations between Hooton and Birkenhead Central, since in some cases there could be a conveniently timed train from Ellesmere Port people can change to at Hooton.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2025 ==

Out of interest, do other Merseyrail branches have the same issue? Do you - say - have trains from West Kirby or from Southport running fast most of the way to Liverpool because the inbound service was 5 minutes late?