Merseyrail semi-fast running antics.

[Starmill]

Yes, absolutely correct (you can tell I've never been a finance person) - the actual mileage will be the same as it's the same timetable, the only additional cost will be the electric for units stood on increased dwell times, plus the transit to the depot.

So really you are only looking at a bit extra on the crew bill.

My guess would be that there's probably a contractual element on unit availability and the timetable being built around an expected level of performance from the units, that for whatever reason, isnt being achieved. The fix to this problem is both cheap and simple enough to implement (and is the case in Autumn anyway), so there must be a reason not to do it.

The problem isn't primarily the total fleet mileage or electricity though is it, as these would increase only by a small margin to cover empty stock and so on. The problem is that the availability to do maintenance would decrease. That's acceptable for leaf fall as it's pre-planned and time limited, but to offer it year-round would need extra resources at different times to make up the shortfall.

 

[Bikeman78]

It also happens when the controllers are under too heavy a workload to make any changes. Doesn't mean it's going to be policy though. In any case the leaf fall example being extended year round is about the only solution, but this would have to be paid for somehow, and potentially with capacity taken out of the weekday timetable in compensation for it. Unless there's something forthcoming to sign that off, I think the current situation will continue.

I agree that solving the problem on weekdays would be more of a problem because they would have to obtain an extra unit or reduce a Southport train from eight car to four. However, sorting it on Sundays, when it's only half hourly, would be a useful first step.

 

[driverd]

The problem isn't primarily the total fleet mileage or electricity though is it, as these would increase only by a small margin to cover empty stock and so on. The problem is that the availability to do maintenance would decrease. That's acceptable for leaf fall as it's pre-planned and time limited, but to offer it year-round would need extra resources at different times to make up the shortfall.

I doubt it would. Usually there is a contingent of spare units in any TOCs rolling stock diagrams (to cover ad-hoc strengthening for events, ad-hoc maintenance etc) and a handful on booked maintenance diagrams. On Sundays, the number of spare units is normally much higher than Mon-Fri, as the timetable requires fewer units and theres typically less maintenance staff on duty.

Simply put, you'd put a spare unit to work.

 

[Starmill]

I doubt it would. Usually there is a contingent of spare units in any TOCs rolling stock diagrams (to cover ad-hoc strengthening for events, ad-hoc maintenance etc) and a handful on booked maintenance diagrams. On Sundays, the number of spare units is normally much higher than Mon-Fri, as the timetable requires fewer units and theres typically less maintenance staff on duty.

Simply put, you'd put a spare unit to work.

Sure but if one of you knew the numbers I'd have expected it to be shared? So nobody actually knows is the answer?

 

[driverd]

Sure but if one of you knew the numbers I'd have expected it to be shared? So nobody actually knows is the answer?

Absolutely and I don't claim to know, however, if plans are in the pipeline for 4tph to Chester SuO, there must be the units to achieve it?

 

[amahy]

Another potential option not yet talked about here, would be to reduce Ellesmere Port to 1tph on a Sunday and run 3tph to Chester, as the Chester line is much more well used than the Ellesmere Port line. Saying this, I'm not sure the people of Little Sutton, Overpool, and Ellesmere Port would be happy about this.

 

[jamesst]

Sure but if one of you knew the numbers I'd have expected it to be shared? So nobody actually knows is the answer?

Theres more than enough units available on a Sunday, the problem more is staffing levels hence why the past few years the leaf fall timetable has been mon- sat only.

 

[Krokodil]

Usually there is a contingent of spare units in any TOCs rolling stock diagrams (to cover ad-hoc strengthening for events, ad-hoc maintenance etc)

Assuming of course that availability is as good as predicted.

 

[bramling]

And adding an extra unit diagram is precisely how you achieve that. As you say, with the current number of units required to operate the timetable, you cant stretch the timings any further. With an additional unit you can add time, be that at termini or through additional dwell time en-route.

Operationally, Merseyrail is essentially run on a shoestring. The number of trains has been bare minimum since the fleet was pared down 25 years or so ago. It seems to be the case that adding a diagram is something that they essentially can’t do without having to pull something off elsewhere (the peak double unit trains are scarce as it is), and probably can’t justify the expense.

This may well all be at least partly a consequence of Merseyrail being heavily staffed - for example virtually every station staffed through the traffic day, and of course the trains retaining guards. I’m not suggesting any of this is a bad thing, however clearly choices have to be made.

 

[Flying Snail]

Faster journey times due to better performance were part of the benefits of the 777s which should have added some more turnaround time at Chester, they have more than double the power for a similar weight than a nearly 50 year old unit so why hasn't that happened?

 

[bramling]

Faster journey times due to better performance were part of the benefits of the 777s which should have added some more turnaround time at Chester, they have more than double the power for a similar weight than a nearly 50 year old unit so why hasn't that happened?

Door cycle taking longer?

 

[507 001]

Faster journey times due to better performance were part of the benefits of the 777s which should have added some more turnaround time at Chester, they have more than double the power for a similar weight than a nearly 50 year old unit so why hasn't that happened?

They’re excruciatingly slow at stations.

 

[BenW390Fan]

The DOO cameras don't always come on instantly from what I've been told usually taking a few seconds, then the driver has to check everything so it kind of defeats the increased acceleration timing gain anyway

 

[Bikeman78]

Door cycle taking longer?

That seems to be the case. The doors on the 507s flew open almost immediately. The combination of the passengers having to press the button and wait for the step to slide out adds a few seconds at each station.

 

[WirralLine]

That seems to be the case. The doors on the 507s flew open almost immediately. The combination of the passengers having to press the button and wait for the step to slide out adds a few seconds at each station.

Plus the drivers are being instructed to pause for 3 seconds before releasing the doors due to the amount of wrong side release incidents.

 

[Krokodil]

the amount of wrong side release incidents.

Why doesn't the unit safeguard against this? Almost all stations on MR have one platform for each direction so the unit should be able to think "Birkenhead North, left hand platform - are you sure you want to open the other side?"

 

[BenW390Fan]

Why doesn't the unit safeguard against this? Almost all stations on MR have one platform for each direction so the unit should be able to think "Birkenhead North, left hand platform - are you sure you want to open the other side?"

I suppose it'd be useful to have some sort of confirmation procedure on the unit but half the time the trains don't know where they are according to the PIS so it's probably just another thing to not work, and it would probably have to be easily overridden anyway for platform changes

 

[Starmill]

Why doesn't the unit safeguard against this? Almost all stations on MR have one platform for each direction so the unit should be able to think "Birkenhead North, left hand platform - are you sure you want to open the other side?"

I can see Correct Side Door Enable becoming mandatory in the future for urban areas with high intensity operations and no or few onboard staff. Obviously Merseyrail do retain the onboard staff, for now.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Another potential option not yet talked about here, would be to reduce Ellesmere Port to 1tph on a Sunday and run 3tph to Chester, as the Chester line is much more well used than the Ellesmere Port line. Saying this, I'm not sure the people of Little Sutton, Overpool, and Ellesmere Port would be happy about this.

Too b***y right we wouldn't!

 

[390112A]

Sure but if one of you knew the numbers I'd have expected it to be shared? So nobody actually knows is the answer?

The planned number of Wirral spare units on a Sunday is high enough to deploy the units on the extra Chester services and still have spares.

 

[Bikeman78]

Another potential option not yet talked about here, would be to reduce Ellesmere Port to 1tph on a Sunday and run 3tph to Chester, as the Chester line is much more well used than the Ellesmere Port line. Saying this, I'm not sure the people of Little Sutton, Overpool, and Ellesmere Port would be happy about this.

A train every 20 minutes seven days a week might be a reasonable compromise. It would save a unit on Mondays to Saturdays but require two extra on Sundays. The sixth unit could be used in a pair Mondays to Saturdays. That would give a 10 to 12 minute turnround at Chester which would is plenty.

 

[TheSel]

A train every 20 minutes seven days a week might be a reasonable compromise. It would save a unit on Mondays to Saturdays but require two extra on Sundays. The sixth unit could be used in a pair Mondays to Saturdays. That would give a 10 to 12 minute turnround at Chester which would is plenty.

Cue the complaints: "Why does West Kirby and New Brighton get trains every 15 mins when ours are only every 20?"

No. Not the solution.

 

[_toommm_]

I know there's alluded to a general ban on new third rail installations, but could one possible solution be to extend the third rail to the whole of platform seven (if it isn't already all electrified), and electrify the line next to it. Trains pull up to the far end of seven, step back one run compared to what they currently do, all the while the next arriving service pulls in on top of the one that steps back. Rinse and repeat.

 

[Krokodil]

I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to achieve with that

 

[Kite159]

I know there's alluded to a general ban on new third rail installations, but could one possible solution be to extend the third rail to the whole of platform seven (if it isn't already all electrified), and electrify the line next to it. Trains pull up to the far end of seven, step back one run compared to what they currently do, all the while the next arriving service pulls in on top of the one that steps back. Rinse and repeat.

Platform 7 already has 3rd rail all the way along. I presume your idea is to put 3rd rail down on one of the tracks running alongside platform 7 and build a new crossover into the Manchester end of platform 7.

So something similar looking as the tram platform at Wimbledon

 

[Flying Snail]

Platform 7 already has 3rd rail all the way along. I presume your idea is to put 3rd rail down on one of the tracks running alongside platform 7 and build a new crossover into the Manchester end of platform 7.

So something similar looking as the tram platform at Wimbledon

A silly bodge that would require terminating Merseyrail trains to be emptied and shunted.

The solution at Chester is clearly to extend the 4,5,6,7 island northwards to create 2 dedicated bays for Merseyrail and 2 extra East bays, leaving the outer through platform free for other services.

While no doubt the railway would make a meal out of it this shouldn't be a stupidly expensive development as it does not require any bridge or lifts as it is all level.

As for other solutions I would suggest whatever stupid nonsense is causing the station dwell times to be increased needs dealing with so the new trains can actually provide the promised journey time improvements.

 

[Krokodil]

The solution at Chester is clearly to extend the 4,5,6,7 island northwards to create 2 dedicated bays for Merseyrail

How long are you going to need to extend it to accommodate a double 777? Notices have gone up reminding TfW drivers to pull all the way to the car stop marks on 7A as apparently Merseyrail will be running double sets more often in future.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder to please post any suggestions, ideas, proposals or anything else of a speculative nature in the Speculative Discussion forum section.

Thanks

 

[Starmill]

The building of a platform 8 at Chester is something the local authority have been pushing to try to get funded for a very long time now.

 

[The Crab]

I understand, but 3 minutes? Especially when the next train is not for another ½ hour.

And surely a bit of time could be recovered at the Chester reversal!