Should "false destinations" be used on slow/circular services?

[jfollows]

It shouldn't be beyond the ability of modern passenger information systems to display the correct information in an unambiguous manner. For example the departure board on the concourse at Waterloo could display Addlestone as the destination, with a footnote saying "train continues to Weybridge". The on board screens could display "Weybridge via Addlestone" (bold for emphasis, but upper-case would work too if that was easier).
Or simply display Addlestone everywhere (both on board & on external destination displays, and on stations) until the train has departed from Clapham Junction- as anyone wanting Weybridge boarding up to that point* would be better off catching a Woking stopper.

*=By which I mean Waterloo, Vauxhall or Clapham Junction. Queenstown Road is an exception if the service calls there, but I can't imagine there's a large number of passengers making that journey who are also completely unfamiliar with the quirks of the former LSWR!

Exactly so, that would have made sense rather than what I encountered.
In reality, I already knew so it didn’t matter to me, but I think if it had been advertised along the lines you suggest it would have been better for many.

 

[BerkshireRails]

'Weybridge via Staines' would be sufficient, no?

Re the Ealing Broadway services - this is a situation where GWR should really consider having separate 'brands' for the IC and Local services, and actually advertise these as the operators. Adding 'Stops all stations' is OK but with limited space on some displays do you really want to dedicate potentially 50% of space to a note saying 'fast' or 'stopper' when you could have 'Thames Valley Trains' or 'Great Western Local' as a separately advertised Operator (like Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern are all part of GTR), so that Punters at Reading know the GWR trains don't stop but the TVT/GWL ones do.

Some intercity services use local trains, and some local trains use intercity trains. I am not sure if separate brands are a good idea. If you were to go down the separate brands, then I think it should be London & Thames Valley for the local services.

How do the Salisbury - Romsey via Romsey services cope?

They don't call at Romsey straight after Romsey, unlike the double Virginia Water calling pattern.

1st 07:53 London Waterloo Expt 07:54 Calling at: Virginia Water (08:18), Virginia Water (08:39)...

3rd 08:19 Gatwick Airport On time

07:50:20

 

[Krokodil]

Re the Ealing Broadway services - this is a situation where GWR should really consider having separate 'brands' for the IC and Local services, and actually advertise these as the operators. Adding 'Stops all stations' is OK but with limited space on some displays do you really want to dedicate potentially 50% of space to a note saying 'fast' or 'stopper' when you could have 'Thames Valley Trains' or 'Great Western Local' as a separately advertised Operator (like Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern are all part of GTR), so that Punters at Reading know the GWR trains don't stop but the TVT/GWL ones do.

Surely the introduction of 387s and the handing over of stopping services to TfL has solved the issue. The difference between GWR's slowest services and fastest is only around ten minutes now.

 

[321362]

They don't call at Romsey straight after Romsey, unlike the double Virginia Water calling pattern.

At Romsey, do they show as Romsey, or do they have a false destination and say Southampton via Millbrook or something?

Also what happens with 2S97 0533 Salisbury to Salisbury?

 

[Kite159]

At Romsey, do they show as Romsey, or do they have a false destination and say Southampton via Millbrook or something?

Also what happens with 2S97 0533 Salisbury to Salisbury?

At Romsey they are advertised as Redbridge via either Eastleigh (or via Southampton) for the ones calling at Chandler's Ford first.

For the ones calling at Redbridge first they get advertised as something like 'Chandler's Ford via Southampton '

At Redbridge/Chandler's Ford it displays the true destination

 

[156444]

Surely the introduction of 387s and the handing over of stopping services to TfL has solved the issue. The difference between GWR's slowest services and fastest is only around ten minutes now.

I think it's a non-issue now, yes. There are the signs in the subway at Didcot Parkway which say something like 'fast trains to London and Reading' and direct passengers to Platform 2, so it's unlikely a passenger would unwittingly catch the slow train from Platform 4 (or 5 on the weekend) anyway (certainly when I have boarded the stopper from Didcot Parkway I've pretty much had the train to myself until Cholsey, very few seem to board at Didcot). The destinations are shown correctly in both directions for the duration of the journey.

 

[childwallblues]

Not arguing with these generally valid points for the sake of it, but as @Bletchleyite says, every rule requires an exception. There IS a valid reason for non-enthusiasts to board at James Street going "the wrong way", and that is to travel to Moorfields, Lime Street or Liverpool Central. You have to remember that James Street is de facto the closest station to Albert Dock, Liverpool One and the Ferry terminal - attractions to a significant number of visitors to Liverpool. A fair number of visitors to the city use the train in this manner to return either to connecting services (Merseyrail Northern Line and/or Mainline services from Lime Street) or to travel into the City itself. I often board at James Street to travel to Moorfields after a beer or two in Wetherspoons opposite James Street station (the subject of another thread!). And yes, I know the able bodied can walk it easily enough, but if you've got a ticket - as many have - why not use it?

And whilst I do understand why the on board PIS leaves it until James Street (or just after) on inbound services before announcing the [new] destination of the service as it passes round the loop, even this can cause confusion for passengers already on the train. I have on a number of occasions been on such services where unfamiliar passengers bound for Liverpool Central panic on hearing "This Train is for Chester" (or where-ever it's come from / going to), and think that somehow they've missed their intended alighting point of Moorfields, Lime Street or Central.

When the PIS changes after James Street it does say this train is for say New Brighton and then list all calling points.

 

[markymark2000]

I do think false destinations should be used more when promoting slow or circuitous rail replacement buses. It's completely bonkers that slow, torturous rail replacement buses are being promoted to their final destination, when alternative services exist. (of course if there is no alternative service or diversion, end destination makes sense)

Given Chester is being mentioned a lot lately here, I will use it as a good example. When the Northern Mid Cheshire is cancelled, it shows 'Manchester Piccadilly' as the end destination for most passengers seeing this, they will head outside to get a bus. They will be completely unaware that it takes nearly 3 hours to get to Manchester, and in that time at least 2 trains will have overtaken them (via Warrington) or they could have travelled via Crewe and still got in significantly quicker. I know a good number of rail replacement staff spend far too long telling people to 'go back inside for a train' rather than using the bus. Simply advertising the Northern bus as 'Stockport' or even better 'Navigation Road' would mean the many Manchester passengers wouldn't end up messing around. Similarly if the TFW service goes down, short destination them to Newton Le Willows and then nudge people to go via Crewe or use the Mid Cheshire line, either would be much quicker than using the bus.

Also any route where there is a fast and all stops service in operation to connect to a train, normally the all stopper leaves earlier due to it having more stations. For some reason, journey planners love to show people the all stops times. If the person wants the smaller stations or the times work out quicker to use the stopper, by all means that makes sense, but when they can arrive at the same time or make the same connection on the fast service, the passenger should be using the fast so that capacity on the stopper can be saved for those who need to use the stopper. I know many instances where people have been left at small stations in the middle of nowhere as the rail rep staff have filled the minibus stopper with longer distance passengers and then a fast coach has ran empty or nearly empty not long later to make the same connection up the line. Giving buses a short destination would reduce instances of people getting on the slow stopper when they don't need to be on that service.

 

[321362]

My least favourite is on the 701s when they announce this train is for Waterloo, even as you're just leaving Waterloo. Was on one yesterday and on three separate occasions (vauxhall, clj and wimbledon) I saw people panic and get off the train as they were expecting a train to Strawberry Hill (which is what is announced at the station)

 

[Iskra]

I’m a bit late to the thread, but in my opinion the trains should be honest about the destination but then have a suffix such as slow/stopper, semi-fast, fast/express. This is both transparent and clear.

E.g:

York - Slow
York - Fast

 

[bluenoxid]

I’m a bit late to the thread, but in my opinion the trains should be honest about the destination but then have a suffix such as slow/stopper, semi-fast, fast/express. This is both transparent and clear.

E.g:

York - Slow
York - Fast

It makes sense in a lot of cases. I think it is the alternate routes and loops that will cause issues.

I was wondering if for the Harrogate services, the destinations should be Poppleton (York) and Burley Park (Leeds).

 

[Kite159]

I’m a bit late to the thread, but in my opinion the trains should be honest about the destination but then have a suffix such as slow/stopper, semi-fast, fast/express. This is both transparent and clear.

E.g:

York - Slow
York - Fast

So how would you describe a Romsey Rounder?

 

[Iskra]

So how would you describe a Romsey Rounder?

I’m not familiar with the route but I see nothing wrong with ‘Romsey Circular’ if it is indeed circular.

 

[Kite159]

I’m not familiar with the route but I see nothing wrong with ‘Romsey Circular’ if it is indeed circular.

Example of a service: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L52016/2025-10-09/detailed#allox_id=0

Goes Salisbury - Romsey - Southampton - Eastleigh - Romsey so calling at Romsey twice.

 

[Iskra]

Example of a service: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L52016/2025-10-09/detailed#allox_id=0

Goes Salisbury - Romsey - Southampton - Eastleigh - Romsey so calling at Romsey twice.

Okay, probably ‘Eastleigh via Romsey,’ until Eastleigh when it would just become ‘Romsey.’

I’m open to the odd outlier though where it makes sense.

 

[Barnsley]

I’m a bit late to the thread, but in my opinion the trains should be honest about the destination but then have a suffix such as slow/stopper, semi-fast, fast/express. This is both transparent and clear.

E.g:

York - Slow
York - Fast

This is what is displayed at Barnsley the express to Leeds is displayed as Leeds-Fast, the stopper just as Leeds

 

[The exile]

Okay, probably ‘Eastleigh via Romsey,’ until Eastleigh when it would just become ‘Romsey.’

I’m open to the odd outlier though where it makes sense.

Eastleigh via Romsey misses the most vital point - which way it goes after Romsey.

 

[Iskra]

Eastleigh via Romsey misses the most vital point - which way it goes after Romsey.

I did already explain that a) I’m not familiar with the route; b) I’m happy for the decision to be made locally where it makes sense, providing the destination displayed is transparent and not dishonest.

 

[zwk500]

Okay, probably ‘Eastleigh via Romsey,’ until Eastleigh when it would just become ‘Romsey.’

I’m open to the odd outlier though where it makes sense.

Southampton via Eastleigh (or Eastleigh via Southampton) would be the obvious thing to show for the Romsey Rounders.

 

[Charlie978]

This is what is displayed at Barnsley the express to Leeds is displayed as Leeds-Fast, the stopper just as Leeds

Funnily enough about 10 years ago at Chesterfield the Northern service at xx:56 was advertised as the ‘Leeds Express via Barnsley’ although the following train on the platform was the xx:05 CrossCountry via Leeds which got in 10 minutes before.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Apologies if it's already been mentioned, I don't recall seeing it if so...

I called in at Huddersfield station earlier today to see how the new (interim) layout looks "in the flesh", and noticed that the "all stops" Rail Replacement Buses to Leeds were on the screens as buses to Cottingley rather than Leeds. Makes sense with some trains to Leeds still operating, as the time difference between the fasts and (bustituted) stoppers will be even more pronounced even with the trains diverted via Wakefield.

 

[Mogz]

I remember that when there was a Virgin Crosscountry service from Liverpool Lime Street to London Paddington in the early 2000s it was always advertised as going to Reading.

The reasoning for this was that it was always quicker for a traveller going to London to wait until the next regular Euston service.

I only ever saw the departure board say “London Paddington” when the Euston service was delayed or cancelled, such that the VXC service to Paddington was the quicker.

 

[Mgameing123]

I remember that when there was a Virgin Crosscountry service from Liverpool Lime Street to London Paddington in the early 2000s it was always advertised as going to Reading.

The reasoning for this was that it was always quicker for a traveller going to London to wait until the next regular Euston service.

I only ever saw the departure board say “London Paddington” when the Euston service was delayed or cancelled, such that the VXC service to Paddington was the quicker.

If CrossCountry Reading terminators could just still go to Paddington.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If CrossCountry Reading terminators could just still go to Paddington.

...then they'd be even more seriously overcrowded than they are now, and waste paths on short units that could be used for longer ones!

 

[Mgameing123]

...then they'd be even more seriously overcrowded than they are now, and waste paths on short units that could be used for longer ones!

Well by the time CrossCountry actually get the rolling stock they need then it wouldn't be a waste of space if it replaced the Oxford shorts on GWR.

 

[tfw756rider]

I came across a false destination in person for the first time at Leeds the other day - a Northern 170 loading for York Poppleton (mentioned a few times previously in this thread, I acknowledge).

 

[Ridgeblog]

Hi all. I know that there exist loop services that go round to Cannon Street through the Bexley line and then back round through the Charlton line.

Why do stations label this service initially as going to Slade Green and then later once it passes Blackheath or so that it's going to Woolwich Arsenal, and then once it gets to there, it's then advertised as going to Cannon Street?

Wouldn't this be very confusing to passengers who would take this service to be terminating at either station and would instead have to change instead of sitting the whole way?

I mean, yeah, I don't imagine anyone would want to travel a whole loop from Cannon Street all the way back, but then what about Woolwich Arsenal? It feels very misleading, though maybe passengers really do have to read the long list of stations to check it stops there, even if they use Realtime trains, which is much easier, but still...

 

[NSE]

It wouldn’t be helpful to have the train arrive at Blackheath as ‘Cannon Street’ only for it to run for over an hour via Barnehurst, Slade Green etc rather than the quick 15/20 minute run via Lewisham.

Loop services often advertise the half way point (see services from St Albans to St Albans as Sutton upon departure from St Albans or Waterloo to Waterloo as Strawberry Hill or Teddington depending on direction). The ‘fake destination’ technique has also been used by slow vs fast services to keep passengers from getting on a slow when a fast takes a fraction of the time (previously the slow GN to King’s Cross left Cambridge showing ‘Finsbury Park’ to keep people from getting the slowest service).

It’s quite helpful and frequently used.

 

[Mattplans]

Services leaving Cannon Street (to return to London via Bexleyheath, Sidcup or Greenwich) will always be advertised as terminating at Slade Green until they reach Eltham/Sidcup/Woolwich Arsenal.

Then, depending on what route the train is taking on its’ way back to Central London it will market itself as terminating at Eltham/Sidcup/Woolwich Arsenal.

Once it reaches Slade Green, it will advertise itself as terminating at Cannon Street.

It does make sense for some of the reasons already pointed out. Additionally, passengers from stations like Lewisham that want to travel to stations like Woolwich Arsenal would probably be misled by a service terminating at Woolwich and a service that goes to Dartford via Woolwich.

The loop service is honestly great, my only issue with it is unnecessary padding at some locations, and also train drivers sometimes “forget” to change the destinations at the points above. This is very confusing for passengers that are not familiar with the system, especially if you aren’t starting your journey from the London terminals (the only location on most of these trips where they will bother to make announcements to correct the record). I think this tends to happen most when drivers changeover at Slade Green, but that’s just a theory. I’m hopeful that on the new stock they will have this happen automatically so it’s not down to drivers to fix the destination.

 

[nw1]

Clockwise and Anti-clockwise aren’t really words that are in the vocabulary of somebody whose mother tongue isn’t English, whereas place/station names are unambiguous and usually stay the same.

Reminds me of when I went to Italy on a school trip in the mid-80s and noticed local buses with destinations of "Circolare Destro" and "Circolare Sinistro". "Circolare" I took to mean "circular", but I assumed that Destro and Sinistro were housing estates of the town I was staying in. However they actually mean "right" and "left". I presume "left" is clockwise and "right" is anticlockwise though not totally sure.