Should "false destinations" be used on slow/circular services?

[Bletchleyite]

Except perhaps when a train returns to its origin? Advertising the Cathcart Circle services at Glasgow Central as going to Glasgow Central would surely also be confusing!

Such a discussion ensued over "The Loop" bus service in Milton Keynes, and the conclusion was that it should be honest about what it is, and the displays now say Clockwise and Anticlockwise and people can understand it properly rather than trying to work out in their head what order a particular set of places would be in. This was probably true of the Circle Line too before it became the panhandle line.

However to some extent every rule requires an exception and there will be limits to what can be done within the constraints of railway systems (vs. bus destination blinds that can say anything you care to programme in). Thus in cases of circular journeys (Chester-Chester via Liverpool being another) there may be sensible exceptions. However it is not a sensible way to differentiate a stopping service from a fast one because it really confuses people - the identifier for a train in the UK is departure time from that station and destination*. The Merseyrail example is different because there is no possible useful case for showing anything other than Liverpool Central on the way in (until you depart James St) - there is no reason bar enthusiasts just wanting to lap the Loop line for anyone to board at James St going the wrong way.

I saw enough confused people yesterday by the really bad habit of showing "Machynlleth" as the on board destination on TfW services from the Cambrian Coast that are actually planned as going through to Birmingham, most notably a small group of Scouts almost didn't board at Porthmadog because they didn't think it was the right train. And similarly at one point the Caledonian Sleeper used to show at Fort William as "Edinburgh" though I think that was fixed a good while ago now. And showing "South Hampstead"** at Watford on Overground services is similarly silly and confusing - CIS screens these days show arrival times, and a note of "local stopping service, journey time approx 1 hour" is quite easy to add on modern systems, or just put those ones on a separate display entirely as Euston I think now does.

Back to the original one (or the former Oldham Loop) if it is possible to put a useful false destination in the system, i.e. something like "Cathcart Loop Clockwise", that's what I would do, and put a via point of the most distant but well-known station in as well.

* This would be different if we used flight numbers for long distance trains and route codes for local ones, but we don't.

** This one is particularly bad because people aren't necessarily going to know where that is nor whether it's north or south of Watford Jn - if you didn't happen to know it just sounds like a generic South East place name. Thus someone wanting Bushey, say, might have no idea where it is.

 

[Bill57p9]

In previous timetables there was also Fife Circle services in Scotland which were typically shown in Edinburgh as destination Glenrothes with Thornton.

For loops, naming the destination as the loop strikes me as reasonably intuitive, e.g. Cathcart Outer Circle. Something similar might work for "Liverpool Loop" or maybe just Liverpool in that case.

For slow services, such as Watford DC, what about suffix (Slow)? Surely anyone stood looking at a departure screen in Watford would find "London Euston" Vs "London Euston (slow)" pretty intuitive. Or use the TfL line name.

 

[Gaelan]

the Caledonian Sleeper used to show at Fort William as "Edinburgh"

I think this is/was poor handling of splitting/joining. The highland sleeper is the mother of all edge cases: the only service on the network to do a three-way join and one of two (alongside the lowland sleeper) to split/join at a station that is not a passenger stop.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2025 ==

if it is possible to put a useful false destination in the system, i.e. something like "Cathcart Loop Clockwise"

I believe Darwin requires the false destination to be a valid TIPLOC. The via text can be any string, though, so you could do Glasgow Central via Cathcart Loop.

Some CIS systems might have more or less flexibility than Darwin, of course, although I’d be hesitant to use a false destination on departure boards that isn’t reflected in Darwin.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think this is/was poor handling of splitting/joining.

Probably so, as is showing through Pwllheli-Birmingham services which are technically "through coaches". The old TfW station CIS couldn't handle that properly at all though the new one does manage it. However I'm fairly sure the on board PIS does have a Birmingham International destination from Pwllheli including calling points, so picking Mach just because you can't be bothered to check whether it goes through or not (the one concerned is timetabled to do so and there was at no point any suggestion it would not) is just lazy and is very confusing on a line that is probably 90% tourists at this time of year.

 

[frankmoh]

I'm just wondering how Edgware Road is set up for the Circle Line.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Probably so, as is showing through Pwllheli-Birmingham services which are technically "through coaches". The old TfW station CIS couldn't handle that properly at all though the new one does manage it. However I'm fairly sure the on board PIS does have a Birmingham International destination from Pwllheli including calling points, so picking Mach just because you can't be bothered to check whether it goes through or not (the one concerned is timetabled to do so and there was at no point any suggestion it would not) is just lazy and is very confusing on a line that is probably 90% tourists at this time of year.

The PIS on 158s operates by inputting a four-digit code specific to that origin, destination & calling point. The correct code for any given journey should be printed on the guard's diagram. In this case it sounds like either: the wrong code was printed on the diagram, or no code was printed on the diagram (or the provided code wouldn't work) so the guard has just used the first code they can remember which works and will announce the correct stops for that part of the journey, or the guard has just gone rogue.

 

[croydontangle]

This was probably true of the Circle Line too before it became the panhandle line

A video of the old VERA announcements (so pre-panhandle) shows the destinations as, going anti-clockwise/inner rail:

• Circle Line via Paddington and HSK
• Circle Line via HSK and Victoria
• Circle Line via Victoria and Tower Hill
• Circle Line via Tower Hill and Liverpool Street
• Circle Line via Liverpool Street and King’s Cross

No announcements west of KXSP but considering at Baker Street going clockwise it’s “via King’s Cross and Liverpool Street” it might have just said Edgware Road after that, maybe “via Edgware Road and Paddington”.

Point is even pre-spiralisation it seems like you still had to know the order of stations on the line in your direction of travel

 

[Bletchleyite]

A video of the old VERA announcements (so pre-panhandle) shows the destinations as, going anti-clockwise/inner rail:

• Circle Line via Paddington and HSK
• Circle Line via HSK and Victoria
• Circle Line via Victoria and Tower Hill
• Circle Line via Tower Hill and Liverpool Street
• Circle Line via Liverpool Street and King’s Cross

No announcements west of KXSP but considering at Baker Street going clockwise it’s “via King’s Cross and Liverpool Street” it might have just said Edgware Road after that, maybe “via Edgware Road and Paddington”.

Point is even pre-spiralisation it seems like you still had to know the order of stations on the line in your direction of travel

Yeah, I do remember it being that, but personally I would have just used clockwise/anticlockwise as people would know what that meant and if they didn't they could clearly see it on a Tube map.

 

[croydontangle]

Yeah, I do remember it being that, but personally I would have just used clockwise/anticlockwise as people would know what that meant and if they didn't they could clearly see it on a Tube map.

Honestly baffling as to why they didn’t just use clockwise or anticlockwise, it is obviously much simpler. Doubt we’ll ever know the reasoning there though!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Honestly baffling as to why they didn’t just use clockwise or anticlockwise, it is obviously much simpler. Doubt we’ll ever know the reasoning there though!

A Circle Line train was a theoretical entity back then anyway. The "panhandle" did at least improve reliability!

 

[HSTEd]

I believe Darwin requires the false destination to be a valid TIPLOC. The via text can be any string, though, so you could do Glasgow Central via Cathcart Loop.

Some CIS systems might have more or less flexibility than Darwin, of course, although I’d be hesitant to use a false destination on departure boards that isn’t reflected in Darwin.

Well, couldn't we add extra TIPLOCs to the system to be used for this purpose?

 

[AndrewE]

For loops, naming the destination as the loop strikes me as reasonably intuitive, e.g. Cathcart Outer Circle. Something similar might work for "Liverpool Loop" or maybe just Liverpool in that case.

It does work for the Liverpool loop, it just doesn't show on RTT.
Station departure boards and the Passenger display on trains show "Liverpool Central" (I think) on the inward journey and change to the actual destination somewhere on the Loop, presumably after leaving James St so that people don't get on the inward-bound train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2025 ==

Such a discussion ensued over "The Loop" bus service in Milton Keynes, and the conclusion was that it should be honest about what it is, and the displays now say Clockwise and Anticlockwise and people can understand it properly

Chester has a circular service to Blacon. The 14 goes clockwise and the 14A anticlockwise.

 

[Djgr]

This is definitely an area in which to be pragmatic. As stated above, for normals the current approach works absolutely fine.

 

[swt_passenger]

This is definitely an area in which to be pragmatic. As stated above, for normals the current approach works absolutely fine.

This topic (as it applies to trains) has been discussed quite a few times, IIRC there was a problem at one stage on the circular services out of Waterloo where the false destinations used on the train displays and announcements was slightly different to that used on the platform displays, eg one might say Twickenham and the other Kingston at the same time. But I think it was eventually standardised…

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is definitely an area in which to be pragmatic. As stated above, for normals the current approach works absolutely fine.

In which of the contexts discussed? Using Mach (a very small town most people have never heard of; it's only significant because it's a railway junction with more than a little bit of the feel of Hatley of "Oh Dr. Beeching" fame at times) as a destination for trains from Pwllheli that are actually going to Birmingham does confuse non-locals, and that line carries a lot of non-locals, particularly in the school holidays. Whereas the Cathcart Circle being done as it always was probably is fine for most users. I don't think the London Overground "South Hampstead" nonsense persists, I seem to recall it being removed in the days when Oyster wasn't valid on London Midland (as was) services, so some would want to use the Overground to Euston, though it was misleading at other times e.g. in disruption when the DC line is the only thing moving.

 

[Farnborough]

Trains from London Waterloo to Weybridge (via Staines and Addlestone) are only typically listed as to Addlestone and not to Weybridge.

For anyone wanting to go to Weybridge, better options exist:

• the Basingstoke stopper (30 minutes)
• the Woking stopper (40 minutes)
• any Fast train to Woking, and back-track (~30 minutes)

Even to Addlestone and even Chertsey, you're better off mainlining it to Weybridge than taking the scenic route...

That said, it should be left to the passenger to plan and choose their route... fake destinations simply add to confusion.

 

[HSTEd]

False destinations seem to me to be rather dodgy, especially when the idea of selling advance purchase tickets on slow trains to provide service segmentation is in vogue.

 

[TheSel]

Such a discussion ensued over "The Loop" bus service in Milton Keynes, and the conclusion was that it should be honest about what it is, and the displays now say Clockwise and Anticlockwise and people can understand it properly rather than trying to work out in their head what order a particular set of places would be in. This was probably true of the Circle Line too before it became the panhandle line.

However to some extent every rule requires an exception and there will be limits to what can be done within the constraints of railway systems (vs. bus destination blinds that can say anything you care to programme in). Thus in cases of circular journeys (Chester-Chester via Liverpool being another) there may be sensible exceptions. However it is not a sensible way to differentiate a stopping service from a fast one because it really confuses people - the identifier for a train in the UK is departure time from that station and destination*. The Merseyrail example is different because there is no possible useful case for showing anything other than Liverpool Central on the way in (until you depart James St) - there is no reason bar enthusiasts just wanting to lap the Loop line for anyone to board at James St going the wrong way.

I saw enough confused people yesterday by the really bad habit of showing "Machynlleth" as the on board destination on TfW services from the Cambrian Coast that are actually planned as going through to Birmingham, most notably a small group of Scouts almost didn't board at Porthmadog because they didn't think it was the right train. And similarly at one point the Caledonian Sleeper used to show at Fort William as "Edinburgh" though I think that was fixed a good while ago now. And showing "South Hampstead"** at Watford on Overground services is similarly silly and confusing - CIS screens these days show arrival times, and a note of "local stopping service, journey time approx 1 hour" is quite easy to add on modern systems, or just put those ones on a separate display entirely as Euston I think now does.

Back to the original one (or the former Oldham Loop) if it is possible to put a useful false destination in the system, i.e. something like "Cathcart Loop Clockwise", that's what I would do, and put a via point of the most distant but well-known station in as well.

* This would be different if we used flight numbers for long distance trains and route codes for local ones, but we don't.

** This one is particularly bad because people aren't necessarily going to know where that is nor whether it's north or south of Watford Jn - if you didn't happen to know it just sounds like a generic South East place name. Thus someone wanting Bushey, say, might have no idea where it is.

It does work for the Liverpool loop, it just doesn't show on RTT.
Station departure boards and the Passenger display on trains show "Liverpool Central" (I think) on the inward journey and change to the actual destination somewhere on the Loop, presumably after leaving James St so that people don't get on the inward-bound train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2025 ==


Chester has a circular service to Blacon. The 14 goes clockwise and the 14A anticlockwise.

Not arguing with these generally valid points for the sake of it, but as @Bletchleyite says, every rule requires an exception. There IS a valid reason for non-enthusiasts to board at James Street going "the wrong way", and that is to travel to Moorfields, Lime Street or Liverpool Central. You have to remember that James Street is de facto the closest station to Albert Dock, Liverpool One and the Ferry terminal - attractions to a significant number of visitors to Liverpool. A fair number of visitors to the city use the train in this manner to return either to connecting services (Merseyrail Northern Line and/or Mainline services from Lime Street) or to travel into the City itself. I often board at James Street to travel to Moorfields after a beer or two in Wetherspoons opposite James Street station (the subject of another thread!). And yes, I know the able bodied can walk it easily enough, but if you've got a ticket - as many have - why not use it?

And whilst I do understand why the on board PIS leaves it until James Street (or just after) on inbound services before announcing the [new] destination of the service as it passes round the loop, even this can cause confusion for passengers already on the train. I have on a number of occasions been on such services where unfamiliar passengers bound for Liverpool Central panic on hearing "This Train is for Chester" (or where-ever it's come from / going to), and think that somehow they've missed their intended alighting point of Moorfields, Lime Street or Central.

 

[wilsontown]

The one I'm familiar with is the York - Leeds via Harrogate services, which are advertised as destination Poppleton from Leeds and Burley Park from York. You can see why this is done, because if you are travelling from York to Leeds you almost certainly don't want that train, so having it advertised to Leeds might cause issues. But it's not a perfect solution as there was at least one case on the Disputes and Prosecutions board where someone had an advance from Leeds to York on the Harrogate service, and boarded a direct service that unhelpfully left Leeds at the same time.

 

[The exile]

Of course, if we did have to go down the “Not invented here” line we could have standardised service patterns with route numbers (necessary variations having a suffix letter or something).

 

[43096]

I think this is/was poor handling of splitting/joining. The highland sleeper is the mother of all edge cases: the only service on the network to do a three-way join and one of two (alongside the lowland sleeper) to split/join at a station that is not a passenger stop.

Edinburgh is a passenger stop on the highland sleeper for the purposes of pick up (northbound) and set down (southbound) on the Fort William seats. It is also where seated passengers transfer to/from the Fort William portion from/to the Aberdeen portion.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Clockwise and Anti-clockwise aren’t really words that are in the vocabulary of somebody whose mother tongue isn’t English, whereas place/station names are unambiguous and usually stay the same.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Clockwise and Anti-clockwise aren’t really words that are in the vocabulary of somebody whose mother tongue isn’t English, whereas place/station names are unambiguous and usually stay the same.

Dare I suggest that in England* the priority is clear and concise communication in English, and it's for tourists etc to learn the necessary language? Of course this could be helped by marking those directions on the Tube map.

I must admit though that (as a slight aside) I prefer the Tube's northbound, southbound etc (except where it's a bit counterintuitive, around Kings X being a notable example) - when in Paris trying to find a map showing the end of the line so you can see what the station is can be a bit of a nuisance!

* Welsh is also available in Wales of course

 

[Peakrider]

Not arguing with these generally valid points for the sake of it, but as @Bletchleyite says, every rule requires an exception. There IS a valid reason for non-enthusiasts to board at James Street going "the wrong way", and that is to travel to Moorfields, Lime Street or Liverpool Central. You have to remember that James Street is de facto the closest station to Albert Dock, Liverpool One and the Ferry terminal - attractions to a significant number of visitors to Liverpool. A fair number of visitors to the city use the train in this manner to return either to connecting services (Merseyrail Northern Line and/or Mainline services from Lime Street) or to travel into the City itself. I often board at James Street to travel to Moorfields after a beer or two in Wetherspoons opposite James Street station (the subject of another thread!). And yes, I know the able bodied can walk it easily enough, but if you've got a ticket - as many have - why not use it?

And whilst I do understand why the on board PIS leaves it until James Street (or just after) on inbound services before announcing the [new] destination of the service as it passes round the loop, even this can cause confusion for passengers already on the train. I have on a number of occasions been on such services where unfamiliar passengers bound for Liverpool Central panic on hearing "This Train is for Chester" (or where-ever it's come from / going to), and think that somehow they've missed their intended alighting point of Moorfielods, Lime Street or Central.

Good point. The almost total absence of any network maps on Merseyrail doesn’t help either. Both on trains and at stations.
Given that the Mayor seems to want to market it as a Metro surely adds to the need for some decent maps on the network.

 

[AndrewE]

Good point. The almost total absence of any network maps on Merseyrail doesn’t help either. Both on trains and at stations.
Given that the Mayor seems to want to market it as a Metro surely adds to the need for some decent maps on the network.

What absence? the stylised map is everywhere, on station walls, on trains (I think)- e.g. https://www.projectmapping.co.uk/Reviews/Resources/Merseyrail 1108.jpg which might be a bit of private enterprise and https://www.merseyrail.org/journey-planning/plan-your-journey/network-map/- but all with arrows to show the direction around the loop.

 

[faltskog36abba]

My Partner who is from Glasgow and was working in Leeds, Had a TPE ticket to Manchester - He boarded the Via Bradford service and wondered why it stopped everywhere.

 

[Peakrider]

What absence? the stylised map is everywhere, on station walls, on trains (I think)- e.g. https://www.projectmapping.co.uk/Reviews/Resources/Merseyrail 1108.jpg which might be a bit of private enterprise and https://www.merseyrail.org/journey-planning/plan-your-journey/network-map/- but all with arrows to show the direction around the loop.

It was everywhere on the old trains. Not any more which is why is said it
The old BR wall maps survive, and a few posters. But no, nothing near what it ought to be for an admittedly fairly amateur, self proclaimed metro.

 

[Gaelan]

Edinburgh is a passenger stop on the highland sleeper for the purposes of pick up (northbound) and set down (southbound) on the Fort William seats. It is also where seated passengers transfer to/from the Fort William portion from/to the Aberdeen portion.

Indeed, which just makes it all the more of an edge case! It’s a passenger stop on some portions, but not others.

 

[Falcon1200]

(Thanks for the new thread @Bletchleyite)

IIRC the Cathcart Circle services, whether Inner or Outer, are advertised at Glasgow Central as going to Cathcart, presumably on the basis that for stations further round the Circle there is often a quicker direct train. At stations on the Circle however it is quite common to have trains displayed for Glasgow Central from both platforms!

 

[Djgr]

It was everywhere on the old trains. Not any more which is why is said it
The old BR wall maps survive, and a few posters. But no, nothing near what it ought to be for an admittedly fairly amateur, self proclaimed metro.

You missed out award-winning.