The future of the Heathrow Express

[Royston Vasey]

How many journeys are likely to do that?

I've done it the other way twice, when a short notice business trip is shunted up against a long planned business trip. The first time I got the coach, the second time I got the train - pre Elizabeth. I'm sure passengers flying long haul to Heathrow to connect to short haul destinations only served by Gatwick do exist.

 

[cle]

Maybe 100 people a day. It's far better by coach, tbh. Even with Farringdon.

And many of those would have been airline staff (Virgin left LGW, despite their HQ! - BA was different staff ecosystems) who did shuttles - as well as hapless people who booked connections without looking, or an Easyjet/other airline non-connection.

Airport to airport is a rounding error in overall usage, and barely worth considering in service provision. The coaches are ostensibly the Brighton-Heathrow market too.

 

[cactustwirly]

Quite a lot of people traditionally did, but BA seems to be reducing its Gatwick presence these days.

"Oh my lord, BA have booked me connecting between airports, how on earth do I do that" used to be a perennial post by Americans on Flyertalk and the likes.

Well it is slowly expanding again, they have slots leased to easyJet and Vueling since COVID which are slowly being returned
When Norse go pop I'd imagine IAG will be keen for more slots

Most of easyJets slots at Gatwick came from the sale of GB Airways

 

[Backroom_boy]

It will free up Main Line paths between Paddington and Airport Junction, perhaps even Reading. Beyond Reading, it doesn’t, obviously.

If EL took the paths I assume they would have to run non-stop from Paddington to Heathrow?

 

[Bald Rick]

If EL took the paths I assume they would have to run non-stop from Paddington to Heathrow?

They couldn’t, unless they started at Paddington High Level, in which case it’s just the Heathrow Express in different colours.

 

[WAO]

Whatever the future arrangements, the Mains' paths between Paddington and Airport Junction should be for stock having the speed and acceleration of the IET's. This is the most critical stretch of the whole GWR network and 100/110mph stock should never have been routinely allowed.

Whether my preference for half hourly all first class 5-car 810's, fitted out by Vanden Plas or equal is viable is another matter. I think there must be a premium market given the scale of Heathrow flights.

WAO

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They couldn’t, unless they started at Paddington High Level, in which case it’s just the Heathrow Express in different colours.

But at Elizabeth line prices, which is the main difference between the two when journey times are put aside.

 

[Topological]

Whatever the future arrangements, the Mains' paths between Paddington and Airport Junction should be for stock having the speed and acceleration of the IET's. This is the most critical stretch of the whole GWR network and 100/110mph stock should never have been routinely allowed.

Whether my preference for half hourly all first class 5-car 810's, fitted out by Vanden Plas or equal is viable is another matter. I think there must be a premium market given the scale of Heathrow flights.

WAO

There are just not enough Rover Metros on the road with Vanden Plas interiors.

Given the need to slow for OOC and Airport Junction, how much difference would the 100 make against the 125 of the IET? Some form of super nippy EMU might be better.

Maybe only one Vanden Plas carriage?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whether my preference for half hourly all first class 5-car 810's, fitted out by Vanden Plas or equal is viable is another matter. I think there must be a premium market given the scale of Heathrow flights.

A 387 with ironing boards and Sophias really isn't a premium train, one can certainly say that! I can see there being a market for it, but is that market just going to value the speed of the through journey on the Lizzie higher?

I'm surprised they didn't do a higher quality interior on the 387s, to be honest. 2+1 in Standard and 1+1 in First might have been a decent start.

 

[JonathanH]

Whatever the future arrangements, the Mains' paths between Paddington and Airport Junction should be for stock having the speed and acceleration of the IET's. This is the most critical stretch of the whole GWR network and 100/110mph stock should never have been routinely allowed.

I'm not sure that 110mph / 125mph makes a lot of difference over the stretch between Ladbroke Grove and Airport Junction. It only makes 3 minutes between Paddington and Reading.

 

[WAO]

I can see there being a market for it, but is that market just going to value the speed of the through journey on the Lizzie higher?

I'm not sure that 110mph / 125mph makes a lot of difference over the stretch between Ladbroke Grove and Airport Junction. It only makes 3 minutes between Paddington and Reading.

I think the market is for taxi from Park Lane or Savoy level hotel, not from a bedsit in Southwark.

The lower speed didn't matter so much for HST's but 80x's have much better acceleration and a path is now lost by a slower unit.
WAO

 

[The exile]

HEX might even perhaps drop to 2ph to match demand if needed, as passengers could also have access to the business class lounges. Sharply timed transfers are not advisable with air trace l

Agreed - for passengers heading to the airport. Frequency of the train to get you away is more critical as you can’t control when you’re ready to leave.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm not sure that 110mph / 125mph makes a lot of difference over the stretch between Ladbroke Grove and Airport Junction. It only makes 3 minutes between Paddington and Reading.

The lower speed didn't matter so much for HST's but 80x's have much better acceleration and a path is now lost by a slower unit.

The sectional running times are identical between Paddington and Ealing Broadway, hardly surprising as it is 100mph London side of Acton Yard. The HEx trains are then 30 sec slower to Southall and a further 30 sec slower to Airport Junction, but that is to allow for the time lost braking for the turnout.

Therefore the time diffeence for a 110 vs 125 unit with similar acceleration between Paddington and Airport Junction if both were to take the turnout to the airport is 30 sec at most. (Not forgetting that the faster train would have to brake from 125 to 75mph for the turnout to the airport).

And post Old Oak Common opening, main line trains wouldn’t be above 110mph until west of West Ealing, meaning at best 3 miles of 125mph over 110mph before having to brake for the Airport Junction. That’s about 12 seconds difference.

 

[cactustwirly]

The sectional running times are identical between Paddington and Ealing Broadway, hardly surprising as it is 100mph London side of Acton Yard. The HEx trains are then 30 sec slower to Southall and a further 30 sec slower to Airport Junction, but that is to allow for the time lost braking for the turnout.

Therefore the time diffeence for a 110 vs 125 unit with similar acceleration between Paddington and Airport Junction if both were to take the turnout to the airport is 30 sec at most. (Not forgetting that the faster train would have to brake from 125 to 75mph for the turnout to the airport).

And post Old Oak Common opening, main line trains wouldn’t be above 110mph until west of West Ealing, meaning at best 3 miles of 125mph over 110mph before having to brake for the Airport Junction. That’s about 12 seconds difference.

The 110mph paths for the Newbury service have less than optimal pathing anyway, they are booked for 30 minutes Paddington to Reading

 

[Royston Vasey]

A 387 with ironing boards and Sophias really isn't a premium train, one can certainly say that! I can see there being a market for it, but is that market just going to value the speed of the through journey on the Lizzie higher?

I'm surprised they didn't do a higher quality interior on the 387s, to be honest. 2+1 in Standard and 1+1 in First might have been a decent start.

They're certainly more padded on base and back than normal 387 seats, but having toilets and luggage racks is an important differentiation and not mainly transverse seating certainly helps too. I find the lighting warmer and more relaxing. 2+1 would lead to a lot of people standing (mainly near the barriers, admittedly)

 

[Bletchleyite]

They're certainly more padded on base and back than normal 387 seats, but having toilets and luggage racks is an important differentiation and not mainly transverse seating certainly helps too. I find the lighting warmer and more relaxing. 2+1 would lead to a lot of people standing (mainly near the barriers, admittedly)

Standing on HEx? Is it ever that busy?

 

[Royston Vasey]

Standing on HEx? Is it ever that busy?

It would be at least in the rear four if you took away a quarter of the standard seats!

 

[cle]

I think the market is for taxi from Park Lane or Savoy level hotel, not from a bedsit in Southwark.

The Bond St exits are very handy for Mayfair hotels. I expect many would either do that, or just stay in their cab all the way.

If the difference is negligible to Airport Junction, then a Western / WRATH service could remain with 387s in theory, if rejoining the slows as planned. But the Crossrail units would be too slow. So perhaps these are Heathrow starters, but then run on to the Slough/M/T stops, or they try to serve Basingstoke direct, for instance, as well as Newbury and Didcot.

Otherwise I think it's not worth it. Cut T4 back (make the Picc also free between terminals, and Hatton Cross too), up T5 Crossrail service and go all in there. And rework the fasts timetable to take up the paths.

 

[ShadowKnight]

I could see future track access negotiations between TFL and Heathrow airport where Elizabeth line access to Heathrow airport could be contingent on limited Heathrow express services through the crossrail core tunnels. E.g. Heathrow - bond st - Stratford. Such a service would allow ticket checks between stations and the service could be turned around further east of Stratford.

 

[quantinghome]

I could see future track access negotiations between TFL and Heathrow airport where Elizabeth line access to Heathrow airport could be contingent on limited Heathrow express services through the crossrail core tunnels. E.g. Heathrow - bond st - Stratford. Such a service would allow ticket checks between stations and the service could be turned around further east of Stratford.

Does the layout allow moves to/from the crossrail core from/to the GWML main lines?

 

[JonathanH]

I could see future track access negotiations between TFL and Heathrow airport where Elizabeth line access to Heathrow airport could be contingent on limited Heathrow express services through the crossrail core tunnels. E.g. Heathrow - bond st - Stratford.

Are you suggesting that trains would run through the Crossrail core only stopping at Bond Street, and that this would be a requirement Heathrow Airport would make before continuing to grant TfL access to the Heathrow tunnels?

 

[bramling]

Making that argument here will, however, be attacked for serving "wealthy" travellers with a fast option that wastes the "golden opportunity" of yet another fast path to Reading. The same zealots who think First Class should be abolished completely everywhere.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to at least ask the question as to whether the paths could be more effectively used for something else. 4 paths per hour each way at the London end of a very busy main line will always have a high opportunity cost, hence there does need to be a really good case for retaining them on their current usage.

 

[Brubulus]

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to at least ask the question as to whether the paths could be more effectively used for something else. 4 paths per hour each way at the London end of a very busy main line will always have a high opportunity cost, hence there does need to be a really good case for retaining them on their current usage.

Yes, but as long as there are trains that go on to the slows at Dolphin Junction, or even 110mph paths, the opportunity cost is basically 0.

 

[ShadowKnight]

Are you suggesting that trains would run through the Crossrail core only stopping at Bond Street, and that this would be a requirement Heathrow Airport would make before continuing to grant TfL access to the Heathrow tunnels?

It could be, this is the speculative ideas forum and the Heathrow airport branch is a completely private railway. A few years ago there was some stand off between TFL and Heathrow airport regarding the access fee for crossrail to the airport, hence the increased airport zone fares

 

[Djgr]

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to at least ask the question as to whether the paths could be more effectively used for something else. 4 paths per hour each way at the London end of a very busy main line will always have a high opportunity cost, hence there does need to be a really good case for retaining them on their current usage.

and there are two parts to this discussion:

1) What we speculate is going to happen
2) What we (personally) would like to happen

 

[stuu]

I could see future track access negotiations between TFL and Heathrow airport where Elizabeth line access to Heathrow airport could be contingent on limited Heathrow express services through the crossrail core tunnels. E.g. Heathrow - bond st - Stratford. Such a service would allow ticket checks between stations and the service could be turned around further east of Stratford.

Not without a grade separated junction to cross from the mains to the reliefs east of Ladbroke Grove, there's no way they could cross all the lines otherwise

 

[Topological]

Are you suggesting that trains would run through the Crossrail core only stopping at Bond Street, and that this would be a requirement Heathrow Airport would make before continuing to grant TfL access to the Heathrow tunnels?

In a world of hyoptheticals...

Could HEX explore using the reliefs and running at the Elizabeth Line speed, but actually continuing to serve one stop in central London (maybe) and then Canary Wharf. Possibly Liverpool Street would work because that has the Bank financial district nearby. The speed would not be any different to EL, but the comfort and perceived convenience versus the EL would be.

My opinion is that the current set up is the correct one.

 

[NCT]

TfL will absolutely make sure the that the Crossrail core is one TOC and one stopping pattern and one fleet of trains only.

 

[Zomboid]

Trying to fit non stop trains through the Crossrail core just isn't happening. HEx would be better off going up Acton bank and trying to get into Euston than trying to access Bond Street. (Wonder how long that would end up taking, actually).

 

[quantinghome]

In a world of hyoptheticals...

Could HEX explore using the reliefs and running at the Elizabeth Line speed, but actually continuing to serve one stop in central London (maybe) and then Canary Wharf. Possibly Liverpool Street would work because that has the Bank financial district nearby. The speed would not be any different to EL, but the comfort and perceived convenience versus the EL would be.

My opinion is that the current set up is the correct one.

This sounds like the mad idea Railtrack had to run trains from Heathrow around the northern half of the circle line.