Potential South London improvement ideas?

[stssts1985]

The Lewisham-Victoria route was set to go 4tph awhile back but I think the train cuts in 2022 stopped this from going ahead.

That's interesting - I think 4tph is a minimum frequency on inner suburban lines - i wonder if Clapham Junction would be a better destination than Victoria!

Add a stop in at Brockley so those of us on the Sydenham Corridor can get to Victoria a

Definitely

 

[NorthKent1989]

That would be so useful. Add a stop in at Brockley so those of us on the Sydenham Corridor can get to Victoria a little more easily

Brockley Interchange station would be be a massive win.

That's interesting - I think 4tph is a minimum frequency on inner suburban lines - i wonder if Clapham Junction would be a better destination than Victoria!

In the early noughties, around 2002/2003, I recall a planned timetable was reported in the News Shopper at the time which would have gone live in Spring 2004, bare in mind this was years before the London Overground became a thing and the ELL was extended.

The plan was to have Southeastern trains run from Plumstead or Sidcup to Clapham Junction.

For all SE London has great rail radial connections, it is difficult to traverse one end of Southeast London to another by train, the Victoria-Bexleyheath-Gravesend by SE and the ELL from Surrey Quays to Clapham Jnc are the closest things we have to such an orbital service in this part of the world.

A Brockley interchange station would work wonders

 

[frankmoh]

For all SE London has great rail radial connections, it is difficult to traverse one end of Southeast London to another by train, the Victoria-Bexleyheath-Gravesend by SE and the ELL from Surrey Quays to Clapham Jnc are the closest things we have to such an orbital service in this part of the world.

Greenwich to Penge East for instance. Quickest way I can see is DLR to Lewisham, then SE to Clock House, then walk to Kent House and go one stop to Penge East.

I also think that SE being able to go across the Thames in the East End would be beneficial although very difficult considering not much of their stock is cleared for tunnels. North Woolwich was in Kent back in the day.

Armchair transport planning here but I could see something from Woolwich to Barking in the very distant future.

 

[30907]

Greenwich to Penge East for instance. Quickest way I can see is DLR to Lewisham, then SE to Clock House, then walk to Kent House and go one stop to Penge East.

Greenwich-London Br-Penge W and walk, surely?

 

[frankmoh]

Greenwich-London Br-Penge W and walk, surely?

In peak hours it's possible but outside of that Southern doesn't run a service.

 

[cle]

A lot of people on here previously have been down on Brockley high level.

I think that with 4tph up top, it’d be useful:

ELL route gets a 4tph connection to Victoria
Lewisham to Norwood and Croydon easier
Brockley to Victoria itself as a busy pair

But the ELL Clapham route does a lot of this from the northern direction. And as mentioned, Lewisham - Clapham might be as valuable as Victoria

 

[brad465]

Greenwich-London Br-Penge W and walk, surely?

That is definitely faster, however it still needs 2 changes as London Bridge-Penge West is a peak only direct link. If the Bakerloo Line extension to Lewisham goes ahead this will speed up the example journey: Greenwich-Lewisham by DLR, Bakerloo one stop to New Cross Gate, then Overground to Penge West.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Greenwich to Penge East for instance. Quickest way I can see is DLR to Lewisham, then SE to Clock House, then walk to Kent House and go one stop to Penge East.

I also think that SE being able to go across the Thames in the East End would be beneficial although very difficult considering not much of their stock is cleared for tunnels. North Woolwich was in Kent back in the day.

Armchair transport planning here but I could see something from Woolwich to Barking in the very distant future.

I thought leaving the GOBLIN at Barking Riverside was a shame instead of sending it under the Thames to connect with the North Kent Line.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I also think that SE being able to go across the Thames in the East End would be beneficial although very difficult considering not much of their stock is cleared for tunnels. North Woolwich was in Kent back in the day.

Armchair transport planning here but I could see something from Woolwich to Barking in the very distant future.

The Goblin should have been extended from Barking Riverside to Thamesmead at the very least.

The extend the DLR later on to connect with that to create a transport hub.

As for 4tph Lewisham-Victoria, I always thought that if Rainham were dropped from Thameslink that perhaps this could become a Victoria-Denmark Hill-Blackheath-Woolwich-Gravesend-Medway service

 

[Sad Sprinter]

The Goblin should have been extended from Barking Riverside to Thamesmead at the very least.

The extend the DLR later on to connect with that to create a transport hub.

As for 4tph Lewisham-Victoria, I always thought that if Rainham were dropped from Thameslink that perhaps this could become a Victoria-Denmark Hill-Blackheath-Woolwich-Gravesend-Medway service

That Rainham service is such a waste. They should extend it down through Sydenham to relieve the bursting Overground.

 

[NorthKent1989]

That Rainham service is such a waste. They should extend it down through Sydenham to relieve the bursting Overground.

East Croydon has too many constraints was their reasoning, although why they didn’t just take over the Caterham stopper via Sydenham is a mystery, you wouldn’t add a service through EC simply repackaging a Southern service into a Thameslink one.

 

[brad465]

That Rainham service is such a waste. They should extend it down through Sydenham to relieve the bursting Overground.

East Croydon has too many constraints was their reasoning, although why they didn’t just take over the Caterham stopper via Sydenham is a mystery, you wouldn’t add a service through EC simply repackaging a Southern service into a Thameslink one.

Southeastern though has benefitted from this service providing longer trains elsewhere on their network. I suspect they will want it to remain TL-run to reduce the size of their replacement fleet order.

 

[Class15]

East Croydon has too many constraints was their reasoning, although why they didn’t just take over the Caterham stopper via Sydenham is a mystery, you wouldn’t add a service through EC simply repackaging a Southern service into a Thameslink one.

The Caterham stopper splits at Purley with half the 8-coach train going to Tattenham Corner. This would be impossible with a 700, which is a single 8-car unit.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Southeastern though has benefitted from this service providing longer trains elsewhere on their network. I suspect they will want it to remain TL-run to reduce the size of their replacement fleet order.

SE might have benefited from it but the passengers haven’t, aside from a few passengers west of Charlton, much of the service duplicates the faster services, the HS1 if you’re at the Medway/Gravesend end of the line and the Liz at Abbey Wood/Woolwich, both of which take you to Thameslink stations faster than the Thameslink Rainham service itself.

This line was much better before Thameslink.

The Caterham stopper splits at Purley with half the 8-coach train going to Tattenham Corner. This would be impossible with a 700, which is a single 8-car unit.

Prior to 2018 the Caterham stopper via Sydenham never split if I recall correctly, since 2018 its the Cat/Tatt fasts that split at Purley I’m sure, the Tulse Hill stopper to Caterham doesn’t split.

As for Brixton, I’ll be there next weekend so I think I’ll make an extra journey and use the SE from Victoria instead of the Victoria line, I’m certain I’ll be one of two passengers getting off there.

In the peaks I remember passengers who came from Orpington or a station with no barriers changing at Brixton and paying a zone 2 fare at the tube

 

[Sad Sprinter]

East Croydon has too many constraints was their reasoning, although why they didn’t just take over the Caterham stopper via Sydenham is a mystery, you wouldn’t add a service through EC simply repackaging a Southern service into a Thameslink one.

They should at least increase the Southern service to London Bridge. Awful idea shoving people onto the LO and Jubilee Line.

 

[NorthKent1989]

They should at least increase the Southern service to London Bridge. Awful idea shoving people onto the LO and Jubilee Line.

I thought they were going to have an additional Sutton service which was all stations to Sydenham, then semi fast to Norwood Jnc, West Croydon, Wallington then Sutton or something along those lines, either way it won’t help Penge West or Anerley

The Sydenham Corridor definitely needs more Southern services

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I thought they were going to have an additional Sutton service which was all stations to Sydenham, then semi fast to Norwood Jnc, West Croydon, Wallington then Sutton or something along those lines, either way it won’t help Penge West or Anerley

The Sydenham Corridor definitely needs more Southern services

They introduced a couple of peak hour extras to and from Sutton but they always seem fairly empty. I wonder if this is because people have given up with the Southern services or if the higher price puts people off.

 

[stssts1985]

think that with 4tph up top, it’d be useful:

Yes I think interchange at Brockley is only useful if 4tph at the top!

East Croydon has too many constraints

I really wish the overgound could terminate at east Croydon or at least regular service up line towards london bridge stopping at local stations, same with towards balham! If east Croydon constrained, doubtless even more so with recent development, could a turnaround platform be fit in South Croydon or one of the Purleys - the previous stopping trains (before covid was your london bridge via Peckham rye) used to head down to Caterham not really because it needed 4tph but because it was a place to turn trains around. Now with less trains the Peckham rye trains turn around usually on 5 or 6 at east Croydon but uses valuable platform space.

I’m certain I’ll be one of two passengers getting off there.

I dont think many of the south london stations need better services to london termini - more they need better opportunity for direct or indirect journeys around south london. Outside london it isnt just travel to central london which warrants the train!!!!!

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Yes I think interchange at Brockley is only useful if 4tph at the top!

I really wish the overgound could terminate at east Croydon or at least regular service up line towards london bridge stopping at local stations, same with towards balham! If east Croydon constrained, doubtless even more so with recent development, could a turnaround platform be fit in South Croydon or one of the Purleys - the previous stopping trains (before covid was your london bridge via Peckham rye) used to head down to Caterham not really because it needed 4tph but because it was a place to turn trains around. Now with less trains the Peckham rye trains turn around usually on 5 or 6 at east Croydon but uses valuable platform space.

I dont think many of the south london stations need better services to london termini - more they need better opportunity for direct or indirect journeys around south london. Outside london it isnt just travel to central london which warrants the train!!!!!

Agreed about East Croydon. It’s such an important interchange point but they make it hard as hell for local South Londoners to get to what with the obsession with West Croydon. No idea why they didn’t build a bay of terminating platforms west of East Croydon when they did it up a decade ago. Sick of the mindless disjointed rail travel in South London and if I hear the phrase “business case” mentioned as the reason for it one more time I am going to scream.

 

[Bald Rick]

No idea why they didn’t build a bay of terminating platforms west of East Croydon when they did it up a decade ago. Sick of the mindless disjointed rail travel in South London and if I hear the phrase “business case” mentioned as the reason for it one more time I am going to scream.

No business case to do so.

 

[Class15]

No busienss case to do so.

Very neat!

 

[Sad Sprinter]

No busienss case to do so.

I said “business case”, not “busienss case”!

 

[Bald Rick]

Very neat!

It would have been if my spellign was up to scratch!

 

[Mattplans]

I’ve said numerous times that South London needs more Overgrounds but for some weird reason there’s an entrenched opposition to expanding the Overground on these forums.

As an operator, Southeastern provides a lot of flexibilty within its' serivces that would simply be lost. As a matter of my own opinion, there's simply no point especially if it isn't going to create a new route. For example. London Overground taking over the current route from Orpington to Victoria would deliver little passenger benefit. You might get a new train, but most passengers would lose the longitudinal seating they prefer, and Southeastern have already issued for new trains anyway.


What we can all agree is necessary is an increased frequency. Will London Overground really increase the frequency above 4 tph - people like to scream 'Overground this, Overground that' but the Overground service on the Watford DC lines is only 4tph, same with some services from LST (albeit with overlapping stops?) I imagine frequency a determining factor for most passengers. And if LO would increase the frequency, why is it something SE can't do? Southeastern already provide 4tph on the Victoria-Orpington route, Grove Park route, Hayes line route & Sidcup line route, and there's more than that on the Bexleyheath and Greenwich routes. London Overground would simply not increase the frequency above the bare minimum which its' already at. Taking over most South London routes to Overground will be a vanity project to most passengers, who will reap little benefits and face the same journey times (or extended since you'd expect Overgrounds to always call at all stations), potentially less comfortable journeys at the same frequency. I ask you if that's something you'd be open to.



I support the Bakerloo line going to Hayes as it would actually increase the frequency on this route and provide benefits to current passengers, if London Overground took over this route everything would probably remain the same. You'd probably get new trains in years time and staffed gates (note that some LO anglia stations never got gates). What tangible benefits will the passneger experience. Being on the tube map isn't one.

 

[ScotGG]

TfL fare scale is cheaper.
Station staffing higher.
More ticket gates. Not 100 per cent on LO but far higher than SE. Some SE stations are hard to do but not all.
TfL restored many post COVID cuts. Many on SE remain. There is scope to reintroduce many of the cut services eg Saturday is still 2tph on Vic to Orpington compared to previous 4tph. Bexleyheath line to Charing Cross has 1tph rather than two before cuts. Greenwich line has 2tph operated by Southeastern off peak compared to 4tph until recent reductions. There's more examples dotted about eg Sunday reductions on some lines.

Of course all that and more could be done by SE but under DaFT operation it isn't. Simply put, DaFT aren't interested in doing so.

 

[Bald Rick]

TfL fare scale is cheaper.
Station staffing higher.
More ticket gates. Not 100 per cent on LO but far higher than SE. Some SE stations are hard to do but not all.
TfL restored many post COVID cuts. Many on SE remain. There is scope to reintroduce many of the cut services eg Saturday is still 2tph on Vic to Orpington compared to previous 4tph. Bexleyheath line to Charing Cross has 1tph rather than two before cuts. Greenwich line has 2tph operated by Southeastern off peak compared to 4tph until recent reductions. There's more examples dotted about eg Sunday reductions on some lines.

Of course all that and more could be done by SE but under DaFT operation it isn't. Simply put, DaFT aren't interested in doing so.

I’ll ask the question in a different way.

Where are TfL going to get the money for all this when DfT can’t? (Noting that TfL dont have the money to replace 55 year old trains on the Bakerloo)

 

[NorthKent1989]

They introduced a couple of peak hour extras to and from Sutton but they always seem fairly empty. I wonder if this is because people have given up with the Southern services or if the higher price puts people off.

Honestly I would be surprised if this was the case, over on the Woolwich side of things pretty much most commuters have given up on SE since very few want the city this is why the EL has been rammed even off peak.

I really wish the overgound could terminate at east Croydon or at least regular service up line towards london bridge stopping at local stations, same with towards balham! If east Croydon constrained, doubtless even more so with recent development, could a turnaround platform be fit in South Croydon or one of the Purleys - the previous stopping trains (before covid was your london bridge via Peckham rye) used to head down to Caterham not really because it needed 4tph but because it was a place to turn trains around. Now with less trains the Peckham rye trains turn around usually on 5 or 6 at east Croydon but uses valuable platform space.

Something will have to be done with East Croydon eventually, ironing out Windmill Junction for starters, but also adding in two more platforms for trains to terminate there.

Agreed about East Croydon. It’s such an important interchange point but they make it hard as hell for local South Londoners to get to what with the obsession with West Croydon. No idea why they didn’t build a bay of terminating platforms west of East Croydon when they did it up a decade ago. Sick of the mindless disjointed rail travel in South London and if I hear the phrase “business case” mentioned as the reason for it one more time I am going to scream.

West Croydon obsession is weird, it’s a mid sized suburban station, which doesn’t have half the connections East has.

TfL fare scale is cheaper.
Station staffing higher.
More ticket gates. Not 100 per cent on LO but far higher than SE. Some SE stations are hard to do but not all.
TfL restored many post COVID cuts. Many on SE remain. There is scope to reintroduce many of the cut services eg Saturday is still 2tph on Vic to Orpington compared to previous 4tph. Bexleyheath line to Charing Cross has 1tph rather than two before cuts. Greenwich line has 2tph operated by Southeastern off peak compared to 4tph until recent reductions. There's more examples dotted about eg Sunday reductions on some lines.

Of course all that and more could be done by SE but under DaFT operation it isn't. Simply put, DaFT aren't interested in doing so.

Not to mention zero CHX services on the Woolwich line, DfT’s excuse was “you have the Elizabeth line” the EL has been a game changer, but it’s not perfect for every journey, if I want Southbank, I’d previously got a direct train to Waterloo East, something I can’t do on the EL.

Likewise for better access to the West End, again it’s a large area, and it isn’t just Oxford Street/Bond Street, if I want The National Gallery, Covent Garden or Leicester Square cinemas, Charing Cross was my choice of station over the EL

Now since the CHX have been axed the EL to/from Abbey Wood is rammed, before the Dec 2022 change it was fairly split

 

[Sad Sprinter]

nestly I would be surprised if this was the case, over on the Woolwich side of things pretty much most commuters have given up on SE since very few want the city this is why the EL has been rammed even off peak.

That’s a good point. On the Jubilee Line as far as Bond Street it only begins to empty at Canada Water. Hence why getting a Thameslink connection through Sydenham would be so great. Or at least restoring a service to Victoria along the Catford Loop

 

[cle]

Not to mention zero CHX services on the Woolwich line, DfT’s excuse was “you have the Elizabeth line” the EL has been a game changer, but it’s not perfect for every journey, if I want Southbank, I’d previously got a direct train to Waterloo East, something I can’t do on the EL.

Likewise for better access to the West End, again it’s a large area, and it isn’t just Oxford Street/Bond Street, if I want The National Gallery, Covent Garden or Leicester Square cinemas, Charing Cross was my choice of station over the EL

People can and should change at London Bridge. And get on with it. Also, Tottenham Court Road is firmly the West End, especially now with the Dean St exit! Quickest transport egress into Soho!

Now that the EL exists, there are so many one-seat rides for anyone to numerous parts of town, that the few exception complaints are moot. Even then, there is a London Bridge and Cannon St choice. Or for CX only people, they have LB and Waterloo East also.

Many routes have a single terminus and have to lump it. The SE network is spoilt for choice vs others.

 

[Bald Rick]

Likewise for better access to the West End, again it’s a large area, and it isn’t just Oxford Street/Bond Street, if I want The National Gallery, Covent Garden or Leicester Square cinemas, Charing Cross was my choice of station over the EL

Leicester Sq and Covent Garden are each a 6-7 min walk from Tottenham Court Road (I do it regularly). The National Gallery is a coulle of minutes further.