LNER Class 91 - What are the retirement plans?

[73Stock]

Is there any news on retirement plans?

 

[D365]

To be replaced by ten 10 car CAF Class 897s

 

[800001]

To be replaced by ten 10 car CAF Class 897s

I think the OP is referring to dates of retirement etc!

 

[tfw756rider]

To be replaced by ten 10 car CAF Class 897s

At some point later than 2028, due to one of their suppliers' factories flooding.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Oct 2025 ==

Is there any news on retirement plans?

I think the OP is referring to dates of retirement etc!

I don't know about dates of retirement of the InterCity 225 (Class 91-hauled Mark 4) sets, but I've heard that they'll be shortened from 9 coaches to 7 from the December 2025 timetable change.

 

[800001]

At some point later than 2028, due to one of their suppliers' factories flooding.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Oct 2025 ==



I don't know about dates of retirement of the InterCity 225 (Class 91-hauled Mark 4) sets, but I've heard that they'll be shortened from 9 coaches to 7 from the December 2025 timetable change.

They have to be shortened otherwise they can not keep to the new Dec25 timetable .

 

[GoneSouth]

They have to be shortened otherwise they can not keep to the new Dec25 timetable .

If you all stand up you’ll get there 3 minutes earlier!

Aren’t they always packed with 9 coaches? Good luck with 7.

I’d like to think it’s the 1st class that’s being removed but I know that won’t happen. Which routes will they be on?

 

[800001]

If you all stand up you’ll get there 3 minutes earlier!

Aren’t they always packed with 9 coaches? Good luck with 7.

I’d like to think it’s the 1st class that’s being removed but I know that won’t happen. Which routes will they be on?

One first and one standard removed

 

[hexagon789]

I’d like to think it’s the 1st class that’s being removed but I know that won’t happen. Which routes will they be on?

One PO and one TO removed.

Predominantly King's Cross-Leeds/Bradford.

 

[800001]

One PO and one TO removed.

Predominantly King's Cross-Leeds/Bradford.

What does PO and TO mean?

 

[hexagon789]

What does PO and TO mean?

Pullman Open
Tourist Open

 

[800001]

Pullman Open
Tourist Open

Oh, which has no correlation to what it actually means today?

So is it one first and one second class carriage being removed?

Or two first class? Or two standard?

 

[hexagon789]

Oh, which has no correlation to what it actually means today?

I don't know what you mean by 'no correlation to what it means today'?

Those are the official designations as used by BR and still used today on the carriage data panels.

They are the Mk4 equivalent to the TF (Trailer First) and TS (Trailer Standard) codes of Mk3 HST trailers or FO (First Open) and TSO (Tourist Standard Open) of loco-hauled Mk3s.

So is it one first and one second class carriage being removed?

Or two first class? Or two standard?

It's one of each class, the vehicles removed being:

Coach M, a PO (Pullman Open) seating 46 First.

Coach E, a TO (Tourist Open) seating 76 Standard.


The other vehicles in a 225 post-Mallard refurbishment being:

DVT
POD - Coach L
POP - Coach K
SV - Coach H
TOD - Coach F
TO - Coach D
TO - Coach C
TOE - Coach B

DVT - Driving Van Trailer
POD - Pullman Open Disabled
POP - Pullman Open Pantry
SV - Service Vehicle
TOD - Tourist Open Disabled
TO - Tourist Open
TOE - Tourist Open End

 

[Rob F]

I wonder what goes on in the POP - Pullman Open Panty?

 

[FrontSideBus]

If it's the class 91 that is causing all of the maintenance issues, could they not have just put a different loco on it? Surely you'd think it would be cheaper than whole new trains.
I mean we've seen Mk4's with 90's and 67's hauling them.

 

[Ash Bridge]

If it's the class 91 that is causing all of the maintenance issues, could they not have just put a different loco on it? Surely you'd think it would be cheaper than whole new trains.
I mean we've seen Mk4's with 90's and 67's hauling them.

Posting #5 on this thread suggests its more for performance reasons and given that the class 90s are only 110mph max (although perhaps a little faster off the mark?) surely that would be a backwards step?

 

[FrontSideBus]

New build 125mph electric loco from Stadler ect?

 

[AlterEgo]

New build 125mph electric loco from Stadler ect?

Why? These carriages will be retired in a few years.

 

[FrontSideBus]

Cheaper than ordering whole new trains? Is there anything really wrong with the Mk4's?

 

[Yorkshire09876]

Cheaper than ordering whole new trains? Is there anything really wrong with the Mk4's?

They are getting on for 40 years old. There are no suitable 125mph alternative locos available to use instead of the 91s. Nobody is going to be paying to build new locos (which would probably have a lead time of 3-5 years anyway) for use with stock that old, especially given that locos geared for higher speeds would be of limited use in the future, i.e. for freight.

 

[FrontSideBus]

So the only thing wrong is that they are old? As a passenger, they are probably the best on the mainline currently, IMO.
Better than IET's and they will be certainly be a million times better than the CAF trains that will eventually replace them!

 

[AlterEgo]

So the only thing wrong is that they are old? As a passenger, they are probably the best on the mainline currently, IMO.
Better than IET's and they will be certainly be a million times better than the CAF trains that will eventually replace them!

Yes, they're old and nearly life expired. They are already on a stay of execution, so planning for another 15 years and buying locos just to haul them doesn't make any sense.

 

[FrontSideBus]

How long will the TFW sets last for then? AFAIK there are currently no replacement plans on the cards?

 

[Ash Bridge]

How long will the TFW sets last for then?

But they are not exactly thrashing up and down the East Coast Main Line at 125mph every day are they?

 

[GoneSouth]

One PO and one TO removed.

Predominantly King's Cross-Leeds/Bradford.

Do they go to Bradford now or is this a new arrangement. Last time I was passing through Leeds I saw a 5 car Hitachi heading for Bradford so assumed that’s all that went there. I remember seeing a video of a 91 being dragged out of the old Forster Square station through piles of rubble when new. Quite a contrast between brand new train and industrial wasteland!

 

[hexagon789]

Do they go to Bradford now or is this a new arrangement. Last time I was passing through Leeds I saw a 5 car Hitachi heading for Bradford so assumed that’s all that went there. I remember seeing a video of a 91 being dragged out of the old Forster Square station through piles of rubble when new. Quite a contrast between brand new train and industrial wasteland!

There's definitely a return afternoon/evening from King's Cross to Bradford and back now.

1503 from King's Cross
1915 from Bradford FS

 

[FrontSideBus]

But they are not exactly thrashing up and down the East Coast Main Line at 125mph every day are they?

Well you could argue then, they are hardly being thrashed since they were designed for 140mph running.

 

[NickBucks]

I don't know what you mean by 'no correlation to what it means today'?

Those are the official designations as used by BR and still used today on the carriage data panels.

They are the Mk4 equivalent to the TF (Trailer First) and TS (Trailer Standard) codes of Mk3 HST trailers or FO (First Open) and TSO (Tourist Standard Open) of loco-hauled Mk3s.



It's one of each class, the vehicles removed being:

Coach M, a PO (Pullman Open) seating 46 First.

Coach E, a TO (Tourist Open) seating 76 Standard.


The other vehicles in a 225 post-Mallard refurbishment being:

DVT
POD - Coach L
POP - Coach K
SV - Coach H
TOD - Coach F
TO - Coach D
TO - Coach C
TOE - Coach B

DVT - Driving Van Trailer
POD - Pullman Open Disabled
POP - Pullman Open Pantry
SV - Service Vehicle
TOD - Tourist Open Disabled
TO - Tourist Open
TOE - Tourist Open End

Well done for putting the response so politely.

 

[D365]

Well you could argue then, they are hardly being thrashed since they were designed for 140mph running.

There’s still a significant difference between 125mph and sub 110mph running.

Also worth pointing out that, before 30 nine car Class 801 units were ordered, Eversholt had proposed a UK version of the Bombardier TRAXX locomotive (dubbed Class 93 at the time) to replace the Class 91. Obviously this proposal wasn’t taken forward… and that is when the IC225s were 15 years younger than they are now.

Anyway, the 10 ten car Class 897 units are happening.

 

[FrontSideBus]

Indeed, and if they are anything like 397, the service is going to suffer badly, even compared with 800!

 

[GoneSouth]

Anyway, the 10 ten car Class 897 units are happening.

Are they 10 car or 2x5?

Thanks